Goon Chem Feedback

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:54 pm #60250

Bottom post of the previous page:

Addendum to Pennywise's input:
The additions affect more than just Sybil. Basil is hit by this too, and we're lucky to even have one chemist every shift. I haven't played since /tg/chem was pulled, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that medbay is now tubetown, be it cloning tube or cryotube.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:00 pm #60252

So considering from testimony that this was literally rubberstamped in, and the problems are so apparent they burn into my freaking soul, shouldn't be too hard for any coder looking in on this to earn themselves some major cred and reverting this, unless there really is a compelling reason not to do it other than "It doesn't suck AS BAD as you think..."

Vigilare · Post by **Vigilare** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:04 pm #60256

Snakebutt wrote:Addendum to Pennywise's input:
The additions affect more than just Sybil. Basil is hit by this too, and we're lucky to even have one chemist every shift. I haven't played since /tg/chem was pulled, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that medbay is now tubetown, be it cloning tube or cryotube.

basil has a few very competent chemists that got used to it quick; everyone else just spams medkits and hopes they heal at some point

AnonymousNow · Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:28 pm

dezzmont wrote:So considering from testimony that this was literally rubberstamped in, and the problems are so apparent they burn into my freaking soul, shouldn't be too hard for any coder looking in on this to earn themselves some major cred and reverting this, unless there really is a compelling reason not to do it other than "It doesn't suck AS BAD as you think..."

I'm seconding this. It'd make a lot of players happy, and the new chemicals can be trickled back in without breaking the old.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:57 pm #60277

Additional feedback from additional playing: This has really REALLY hurt miners - Even if you take the full Medkit, you've only got 3 one-use patches for burn/brute. It's pretty severely reduced durability of Miners who do inevitably get into scuffles with moon monsters.

Also still getting knocked out every few seconds by our inaprov replacement aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:22 am #60282

Right now it's way too easy to griff someone with the pen intentionally or unintentionally. It's also way to easy to accidentally kill someone with side effects while chem needs to make upward of 80 to 90 synthflesh patches to keep up with injuries.

Synthflesh should be healing 4 or 5 per 1u so the user doesn't have to slap himself with 20 patches to heal all his wounds and the medipens should have a chemical that doesn't have such a huge griff potential.

Also I did play on Goon recently so they are DEFINITELY not healing the amount they are supposed to.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:32 am #60285

Aleph wrote: Also I did play on Goon recently so they are DEFINITELY not healing the amount they are supposed to.

Goon and /tg/ are about as related to each other as you are to, if not the bacterium living on your skin, some other random non-simian mamal on a coding timescale. I suspect they actually are doing the things they are supposed to do but considering how, again, the entire concept of a player mob's health and how it is handled is different in goon. From what we have seen this was a very simple copypasta code and it would be weird if some numbers actually changed.

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:46 am #60287

dezzmont wrote:
Aleph wrote: Also I did play on Goon recently so they are DEFINITELY not healing the amount they are supposed to.
Goon and /tg/ are about as related to each other as you are to, if not the bacterium living on your skin, some other random non-simian mamal on a coding timescale. I suspect they actually are doing the things they are supposed to do but considering how, again, the entire concept of a player mob's health and how it is handled is different in goon. From what we have seen this was a very simple copypasta code and it would be weird if some numbers actually changed.

Then it's a severe balance issue that should be looked into, since this was fine tuned for a radically different health system

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:53 am #60395

dezzmont wrote:I didn't ask you to run to chemistry. I asked you to run to a medkit. You have to save yourself with a medkit. You can't beg the chemist to save you in this scenario.

Furthermore, try a patch and more importantly try an injection, the most likely way these will be applied and which last I checked have different, faster properties.

Try it yourself. I am not sitting here for hours testing poisons just because you refuse to believe that they do not kill you as fast as people pretend. I ran to Escape then to Medbay to simulate the amount of time it takes for a Doctor to examine you. If Chemists have patches on their desks then you will be fine. If a doctor notices you are lets you into Medbay then you will be fine. If not then you will die. That sounds totally fine to me.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:34 pm #60472

What I will say is the following.

I spent about 15 to 20 minutes in medbay being healed after being cloned and dealing with the after effects.

Also medkits are very ineffective in healing people, its only good for healing light wounds, if someone's in critical a medkit can't help them.

Currently medbay is entirely at the mercy of chemistry to do their job, if the chemists are absent or incompetent (which is the case due to the new system) then medbay can't do its job.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:42 pm #60474

I guess the greatest slight I can make about Goonchem is this.

I have probably put more hours into playing medical doctor, and other medbay roles, on this server than the vast majority of people - ask the regulars how often they see Dr. Cobb - and due to this change, I have set medbay positions in my preferences to Never, and no longer join for medical roles.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:52 pm #60475

If your love of Medbay is so fickle that you would abandon it over a few bugs and balance issues, then thats your own problem.

ExplosiveCrate · Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:03 pm

At this point it's gone far beyond "a few bugs and balance issues".

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:22 pm #60500

ExplosiveCrate wrote:At this point it's gone far beyond "a few bugs and balance issues".

Pretty much every complaint ive seen has been from people who have no idea what they are talking about or issues with bugged chemicals. Then you have the rest complaining about the terrible healing power of the Brute/Burn meds, which is a fair complaint and something i think should be sorted out.

Post by **ShizCalev** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:12 pm #60599

THIS CHANGE IS SHIT. IT TAKES FOREVER TO MAKE BASIC THINGS LIKE CRYOXADONE, AND CLONEXADONE WAS REMOVED WITH THIS MERGER https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-statio ... ecdcebc268

PLEASE KILL ME.

ALSO THE NEW SALINE-GLUCOSE SOLUTION IN THE SLEEPERS TAKES AGES TO HEAL. CAN WE GET SOMETHING FASTER?

AnonymousNow · Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:18 pm

ShizCalev wrote: CLONEXADONE WAS REMOVED

You're kidding, right?

EDIT: Oh god, you're not kidding.

allura · Post by **allura** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:54 pm #60615

ShizCalev wrote:THIS CHANGE IS SHIT. IT TAKES FOREVER TO MAKE BASIC THINGS LIKE CRYOXADONE, AND CLONEXADONE WAS REMOVED WITH THIS MERGER https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-statio ... ecdcebc268

PLEASE KILL ME.

ALSO THE NEW SALINE-GLUCOSE SOLUTION IN THE SLEEPERS TAKES AGES TO HEAL. CAN WE GET SOMETHING FASTER?

hm, let's see... medbay starts with two fucking beakers of 50u of cryox and cryox now heals MORE than clonex used to make... hmmm....??? HMMM....???? i wonder why it's harder to make? hm..................

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:42 am #60631

also cryox does everything clonex did but better now so

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:10 am #60639

Is the wiki being kept up to date with the changes? Right now the new chemicals aren't well sorted so it's a mess to find that one chemical that heals brain damage or toxin damage.

Also maybe try putting a link to the page on the server's MOTD

Pennwick · Post by **Pennwick** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:25 am #60640

Time to go over some of the new update. Haven't had much experince with overdoses and addictions yet.

Cryo Buff?:
Cryox has been easier to make and has been buffed to Clonex levels however clonex has also been removed meaning you can't stack the two. The code seems to be slightly spaghettied. Theres both a M.heal_organ_damage(3,3) and M.adjustBruteLoss(-3). Its going to heal 6 brute and burn instead of just 3. I'm not sure what the intention was but the coding just looks bad. The overall effectiveness compared to stacking is new cryox heals 6brute/6burn/3tox/10oxy/3clone per tick. Stacking old cryox and clonex healed 6brute/6burn/6tox/6oxy/4clone.

Autoejecting is nice but it also means cryo is kind of a set and forget thing. I'd rather have an indicator light up top that changed color. Green for full health, yellow for empty beaker, and red for dead patient. That way MDs would stay involved and not just toss people in cryo.

New Saline glucose;
Buffed hard. Maybe too hard. Its 6 times more effective. You can stick someone with 20u and expect them to heal about 75 brute and burn over the next 50 ticks. Kinda feels like tricord without the tox healing and now its in sleepers. Personal opinion would for it to be between.

My own internal ideal would be 100% chance of healing 1/1 and a depletion rate of .2 and an overdose threshold of 5. 20u would heal you 100/100 over 100 ticks, pretty slow but simple. The overdose would casue you to walk slower from being bloated with saline. Think something like overweight or starving slowness.

Charcoal:
Charcoal stronk. Too stronk. Doubled in effectivness everywhere. This one didn't really need the buff. Healing 3 tox per second and purging 1u of other chems makes this better than antitox was and now that roundstart charcoal bottles are actually filled with charcoal it puts less strain on chem to keep a heavy supply.

Epienphirne:
Got rid of that knockout effect. However is having it [M.sleeping = 0] seems a little suspect. Doesn't this make it so a Epened individual can't be put to sleep in any way? Its still a bit strange as the Emergency medipen.

Morphine:
G2GFast. As far as I can tell if you don't overdose on it its not going to put you to sleep ever. Just add +1 drowsiness on the 36th cycle. Not much of an alternative to sleep toxin at all.

Hoping I can get some Triple Citrus together in the future and give the result to the clown in a spray bottle.

allura · Post by **allura** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:29 am #60669

i would REALLY, REALLY like for someone to give a good amount of feedback on almost every chemical. i've taken the entire post's suggestion and updated code.
if you want a chemical rebalanced, tell me what to do and i'll do it

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:44 am #60683

I guess I'll say straight up to remove the RNG from several of the meds and or the poisons, like why would anyone use the powder which has a chance to heal nothing over something more reliable like synthflesh.

Also I hear that patches need to stack in some form, like actual stacks or pill bottles that fit into the medkits.

And the medpens everyone starts with needs to have a chemical that won't cause microstuns as a side effect

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:51 am #60687

Why were portable chem dispensers silently removed?

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:56 am #60689

Amelius wrote:Why were portable chem dispensers silently removed?

Once science built one they could lock themselves away for the rest of the shift, even moreso than cargonia

allura · Post by **allura** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:07 am #60691

Aleph wrote:I guess I'll say straight up to remove the RNG from several of the meds and or the poisons, like why would anyone use the powder which has a chance to heal nothing over something more reliable like synthflesh.

Also I hear that patches need to stack in some form, like actual stacks or pill bottles that fit into the medkits.

And the medpens everyone starts with needs to have a chemical that won't cause microstuns as a side effect

rng is basically non-negotiable, if it was made to be 100% then this would literally be tgchem 2.0
the reason you use powder instead of synthflesh is because it heals quite a bit more, it just has less of a chance.
patches stacking would mostly be useless, first aid is being updated to have more materials for you though
the microstuns have been removed

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:14 am #60694

wait portable chem dispensers were removed?

this is not intentional, sorry about that, looking into it

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:38 am #60699

The wiki should list the low and high amounts that the random chemicals can heal along with the average so there's no confusion over it

Post by **ShizCalev** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:07 am #60700

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-statio ... ixtures.dm is still calling for clonexadone (which was removed) as an ingredient for syntiflesh

Pennwick · Post by **Pennwick** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:45 am #60722

allura wrote:i would REALLY, REALLY like for someone to give a good amount of feedback on almost every chemical. i've taken the entire post's suggestion and updated code.
if you want a chemical rebalanced, tell me what to do and i'll do it

I'll try to break down each one. At least the Meds as I don't have too much experince with the explosives. I also haven't seen too many ODs or addictions yet so I'm not sure how they should get handled. I do have a good grasp of the base chems.

Code in general:
It could probably be rearranged to be a bit more readable. Chem effects and recipes are all over the place. It makes it a bit of a pain to read. A good order would be Drug, reaction_mob, on_mob_life, chemical_reaction, overdose_process, addiction. Then again this may all get rearranged into seperate files after its more set in stone.

silver_sulfadiazine:
In code description is wrong. Actually heals 1 burn per volume when applied as patch and then has a 55% chance to heal 2 burn per tick while being processed internally. Requires liquid Silver which is still a bit iffy with the liquid silver vs solid silver. Recipie slightly more complex than Styptic due to requiring ammonia but thats probably fine.

styptic_powder:
No problems here.

salgul_solution:
Personally I think its too strong at this point but its a little hard to judge. I kind of feel its too close to a new tricord without the toxin damage and its freely available in sleepers. When it comes to brute and burn its actually stronger than Tricord was. Saline heals on average 1.5 each per tick. Tricord healed .8 each per tick but also covered toxin and oxy damage. Actual Saline Glucose solutions get fed in to the bloodstream and essentially put nutrients straight into the paitents blood. My own personal prefrence would be to have it reliable and slow with a low threshold overdose with a speed debuff on it if you get overfed in a sleeper because you're essentially walking around with too much blood. This way you can shoo little ouches out of medbay without too much trouble but people won't gobble every pill unless they want to walk around a bloaty mess.

synthflesh:
No problems here except either it or Synthi-flesh should possibly have its name changed.

charcoal:
Recently buffed to 3tox and -1 chems per tick. Was 1.5tox and -.5 chems per tick. I say revert it back to its original levels. I feel tox damage should be slow to heal and making it this strong makes Calomel and Pentic Acid less valuable. As it currently is a 30u bottle will heal 225 tox damage. On boxstation medbay starts with 8 in the vendors and several more in cabinets and sitting out in storage. This is in additon to the 6 15u pills and 4 syringes in the tox kits. I think people were mostly asking for a buff earlier because all the pre stocked bottles were filled with saline and injecting that did nothing for tox damage.

omnizine:
Slightly stronger than tricord was and lasts twice as long per u injected. Now overdoseable if you somehow get more than 30 in your bloodstream at once. Aside from the hypospray I kind of wish there was a tiny vial with 2 or 3 units of it in science so they can mess around with the strange reagant and life reactions. Otherwise this only comes out of blue dank, nettle soup, and *exceptional plump helmet biscuit*s.

calomel:
People don't seem to get that its toxic and are suprised when I tell them only to use a little bit. 2u will clear out 25 bad chems and do 25 tox damage to you if you're above 20 health. Blame your doctor when he gives you 10u, not the drug. This drug is fine as is.

potass_iodide:
A bit hard to judge effectiveness of this chem. Health scanners don't show radiation so I'm not sure if .8 points per tick is good at a low level. Something the geneticist could use when self testing SEs. I'm going to guess its probably sufficent. For more extreme raditation you'd want other chems.

pen_acid:
This is the strong tool to clear radiation and tox damage quickly while clearing out any poisons that might be in the blood. Very complex to make but considering it pretty much shuts down any traitor poison I feel thats fair.

sal_acid:
I don't think anyone would use this for its 50% chance to heal 1 brute damage if you're over 50 already. You can even overdose on it to cause yourself brute damage. Used in creating salbutamol. Not every chem needs to be useful if its just a midpoint to another chem.

salbutamol:
A bit of a pain to make but you don't need much. Oxyloss in most situations can just as easily be healed by CPR. (I belive each successful use of CPR heals 7.)

perfluordecalin:
This looks like a pretty situational chem when used as medicine. It heals oxy damage quickly but so does CPR. It of course has its uses for sneaky sneaks who want their targets to stay quiet. No idea why the wiki says you can use it for spacewalking. Its the cold and lack of pressure that usually kills you not the oxyloss. If you can swallow a pill you can usually put on your emergency internals.

ephedrine:
Go fast, get stunned less. Take too much and you get addicted or OD. Can't take more than 29 at a time or you risk the side effects. Seems pretty good. Better than 50u tabs of hyperzine.

diphenhydramine:
I keep mixing it up with my diethylamine bottles on the desk but thats a personal issue. I don't think this would get used for its histamine removing powers you may as well just use calomel or pentic acid which will do it faster and get rid of the drugs causing the histamines. Might be good if we ever get space bees and their space bee stings cause histamine.

morphine:
Seems broken. You can take 20u of it and go fast for the whole duration. You get blurry screen for a tick but thats the only side effect. I think that may be due to it checking if (cycle_count == 36) and not <= 36. Also I don't think a seditive should make you run faster. If anything it should just let you ignore the speed penalties from damage.

oculine:
Requires a whole lot of mixing to make any. Saline requires mixing table salt, spaceacillin requires crytobiolin and epinephrine(which requires phenol(oil), acetone(oil), diethylamine(ammonia)), and Atropine requires diethylamine(ammonia) and Phenol(oil). You need to mix at least 10 chemicals before you can mix your oculine. You could always get a spaceacillin syringe from the medivend though cutting it down to mixing 7 chemicals. Then they need at least 10u and wait 20 ticks for the drug to do anything at which point it looks like it should cure the damage pretty quick. Personally I'd just send them to surgery. In comparison inacusiate for ear damage needs water, carbon, and charcoal. I think this recipie either needs to be brought down to a more reasonable level or maybe chemists just shouldn't expect to be able to fix eye damage. Thats fine too. Chemists don't need to be able to fix every problem.

atropine:
Haven't ever been able to get ahead enough as a chemist to have time to make this. It looks like a fairly strong chem but its hurt by how it stops working once the paitent reaches -25. Its also affeced by the power bump of saline. It only works twice as fast and has multiple downsides. I'd say bump its effectiveness so it keeps working up to +10 health. That way it just barely brings people out of crit. If saline stays at its current strength this could probably use a buff. Maybe to +5/+5 instead. If saline gets nerfed again or sleepers get removed then this is pretty strong at the level its at if the damage threshold changes.

epinephrine:
Puts a cap on oxyloss by just setting it at 35. It probably doesn't need this plus it gives you the akward situation that if you stick someone with just oxyloss damage they instantly jump to their feet all better. You could also use it to just ignore moderate amounts of suffocation damage for a long time. Healing the damage of lightly critted individuals in a new mechanic I don't know how I feel about. To me an Epen is just supposed to keep them alive on the way to medbay. You really only need to stop them from taking more oxygen damage. Healing them as you drag them through the halls doesn't seem to quite fit with that. It also gives you the weird ability to heal someone choking them into that golden range. If the person has 100 brute damage and you choke them down to -35 they'll then heal up to -10 and you can CPR back the oxyloss bringing them to only 75 brute damage. Its a real fringe case but its possible. Strangely enough you don't want to CPR a person under the effect of this drug.

Also it has a 30% chance of setting sleeping to 0. I don't really know enough about the code to tell if this is out of line or not. Doesn't it mean that the player could instantly wake from any knockout with a 1/3 chance per tick or is there more to the sleeping state than that?

strange_reagent:
Requires both brute and burn damage to be under 80. I can't think of many situations where someone has died without taking at least 100 damage from one of those two sources. They would have to be both beaten and burned into crit and then let suffocate or killed via toxin or suffocation damage. It'd also be a handy tool for getting rid of a body. I'd like to see it work based on the total brute/burn damage being under a threshold rather than each individually. Maybe under 150 brute and burn damage. That lets you use it on mosty people that were killed and left to die but you can't use it on someone who was overkilled.

life:
Not sure what this can all summon and I haven't been able to make it yet myself. I'm a little sad it can't summon clowns.

mannitol:
Cures brain damage. Not much else to it. Its exceptionally easy to mix. A little complexity wouldn't hurt it. Mybe replace the water with oil or something.

mutadone:
Needs a bit of mixing for the mutagen and acetone but its fine. Good chem.

antihol:
Only problem with this one is getting the drunks to wait long enough at the counter for you to mix it.

cryoxadone (and clonex removal):
I'm not too happy about this change. A mark of a good chemist was one who mixed cryox and clonex. It was pretty simple to do and it meant your cryo mix was that much more effective. Now medbay just starts off with a beaker of the good stuff right away. I was probably wrong in the past to bash it being hard to make. Cryo is a strong healer and it should be tricky to make and a chemist who can make it well should feel some pride in that.

Also theres some misconception that it heals more. Compared to having old cryox and clonex it acually heals 1 point of clone damage less per tick and 3 less toxic damage. Though it does heal 4 more oxyloss but I doubt anybody cares about that.

The code also seems a bit spaghetti. It has M.heal_organ_damage(3,3) as well as M.adjustBruteLoss(-3) and M.adjustFireLoss(-3). Total of 6/6 but it should probably be just one or the other. Also Synthi-flesh still needs clonex which no longer exists.

nicotine:
All that smoking is finally paying off for the detective. I'm fairly sure the cigarette takes longer to burn out than for the nicotine to actually all process so addiction or overdose probably won't happen with normal smoking. You'd have to grind them up and use them in patches to actually mess someone up. Also probably doesn't actually reliably help most of the time. Cigs are cigs.

crank:
Turns you into a mean lean stun shaking machine. Haven't used it since addiction was added in so I'm not sure how much that addiction theshold of 10 affects druggies. I'm not sure if this affects being hit with disabler beams at all. If not it probably should.

krokodil:
Drug is 2spooky, remove it plz. I've had some fun with this one. I'm not fully sure how addiction works so I'm not sure if its a 40u pill or only 15u to get rid of your skin. Easy access to morphine probably means it'll be seen more often which lessens the novelty a bit.

Thats all of the drugs. Like I said. Haven't had much experince with addiction or ODs yet. I'll probably try it with morphine or something to get a good grip on how it works.

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:14 am #60726

Why not make the synthflesh chemical make real synthiflesh with blood to replace the removed cryoex. It makes logical sense with the names.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:42 am #60734

It would be trivially easy to rename liquid silver to something else. Likewise with stabilized plasma and the two fleshes. In the future when porting you should check for redundancy and eliminate it.

Welder fuel is also a really weird reagent to come out of the chemmaster.

A lot of the chemical formula are starting to bleed into each other which is annoying when making complicated mixes. Because we now have two new ingredients every recepie should be updated to minimize unintentional crossovers.

Chemicals should probably be balanced based around how useful they are in terms of complexity, and in general we should avoid something as overdesigned as Pentic Acid. It takes 3 second tier chemicals and has 6 ingredients overall, which is a bit ridiculous.

Pennwick wrote:calomel:
People don't seem to get that its toxic and are suprised when I tell them only to use a little bit. 2u will clear out 25 bad chems and do 25 tox damage to you if you're above 20 health. Blame your doctor when he gives you 10u, not the drug. This drug is fine as is.

I am actually going to blame the chemical. 2u is an extremely tiny amount of chemical to have such a high punishment for a mistake. While it is fine to have high impact mistakes, they generally should be really telegraphed. A simple mistake in not remembering to mix chemicals shouldn't really drop someone to 20 tox damage, especially if we are pushing for tox damage to be long lasting. Long lasting tox damage means tox damage should also be really hard to get on you in large quantities.

This also makes it a ridiculously efficient offensive chemical. The idea of side effects is interesting but really only serves to make people adverse to using chemicals and make chemicals really strong offensively. While damage is probably the least abusable side effect, a lot of the side effects are actually in reality high end offensive effects like mute toxin or knockouts. Right now there is a very good chance that a rookie medic will deal more damage to you than you actually took to end up in medical, which is not a good thing as it has a good chance of hurting the medical job and making people depend even more on medical kits from cargo and their workspace. At worst incompitent healing should still get you up to some degree.

allura wrote:
Aleph wrote:I guess I'll say straight up to remove the RNG from several of the meds and or the poisons, like why would anyone use the powder which has a chance to heal nothing over something more reliable like synthflesh.

Also I hear that patches need to stack in some form, like actual stacks or pill bottles that fit into the medkits.

And the medpens everyone starts with needs to have a chemical that won't cause microstuns as a side effect
rng is basically non-negotiable, if it was made to be 100% then this would literally be tgchem 2.0
the reason you use powder instead of synthflesh is because it heals quite a bit more, it just has less of a chance.

No one, as far as I am aware, thinks /tg/medical is the best way to do medical, but random chance meds are just moronic and in no way actually play into a good healing strategy. Unlike in combat, once someone is in medical time is rarely ever against you, meaning getting a "critical hit" is utterly unimportant. What really is important is ensuring you can save the guy 100% of the time. A random chance healing chemical only really makes sense in a combat situation and only if it heals you so fast that your wounds basically fly off you, which would make lethal damage combat even less interesting and would make stuns more important, which we want to move away from. Right now if a chemical has a random chance it just causes people to use more of it and jam someone full of it.

The main interesting thing about goonchem, the absolute only thing I like about it in fact, is the idea that you need to create real chemical compounds and mixes rather than creating a lone end product. Random chance is not what is interesting about goonchem in the least and isn't a common mechanic. Furthermore, acting like /tg/chem had nothing good going for it is silly. It had a really good amount of stability that made it so you could trust yourself to be quickly and efficiently punted into a round and didn't have a lot of nonsense that no one would ever use. Even intermediary chemicals were often good for something. The reason we chose /tg/med over baymed was in part because baymed was filled with goofy stuff that made it harder to quickly recover from injury to get back into the round and caused the process of being healed to be more painful, both literally and metaphorically, than actually being killed and revived.

Salicylic Acid is laughably worthless because as long as I have access to any form of brute healing that isn't gated behind anything else I can just mix up hundreds of units of that at round start like it is no big deal. San glucose solution is slightly better, but really only makes sense in a sleeper or when I have tons of it where I can just pump someone full of it to the point the chance doesn't matter. Or if I don't want to constantly have to give medics more chemicals as they overuse them I will just make piles of flesh, which isn't hard at all to do.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:10 am #60739

Reposting from the small thread everyone ignored, because it's exactly what Allura is asking for, if not phrased perfectly for him.

Yes, many of our chemcials heal too damn well, sleepers are chem dispensers, and kits are incredibly powerful. Too often, even when I try to treat people as a doctor, I feel utterly powerless as I open the door to bring in an injured person only to have the person dragging them pull them right to a sleeper and then cryo, punching me when I pull them out even if they're taking damage from ongoing poison in cryo, or cryo wasn't set up. Frankly, the fucking chef and bartender get more player interaction than doctors do.

At first, I was very optimistic about goonchem, as it provided new chemicals and opportunities. What we got was... less than stellar. Yes heals needed to be toned down, but not as hard as they were, there's a difference between instant healing, slow healing, and sitting with a thumb up my ass as I wait for saline to heal a stubbed toe. Many of the new chems were complex to a fault, having upwards of fifteen lines of code going into their effects.

So, how do we fix it? Well, first off, requiring a dozen assorted bottles of oil, diethylamine, acetone, phenol and salt cluttering up the workspace is just fucked, and makes learning new chemicals more painful than it needs to be, particularly when all these intermediate chemicals have no use other than to sit around the desk and get mixed constantly. The dispenser is supposed to do that for me if it's supposed to be used that much. Just counting through the meds, of 30 chemicals, 6 can be made without using another chemical and fucking with bottles and beakers and droppers and the chemmaster. Silver Sulfa, Synap, Styptic, Mannitol, Potassium Iodine and Salbutamol. One in 5 medicines can be made directly at the dispenser, while the miscellaneous reactions can almost entirely be made right from the dispenser, including a lot of deadly poisons. Why? Because fuck you.

Second, healing less is one thing. Having a chance to not heal at all is just wrong. Why would I bother using a chemical that might not even do anything, or takes an absurdly long time to have a small effect? Main offenders are Salicylic acid and Saline-glucose. Make medicine harder to make, or make it less effective. By doing both, you nerf it all the harder.

GIVE US SOME TIME TO ADJUST. Holy shit, this shouldn't even need to be explained. Don't dramatically overhaul an entire department in just a week, give us some time to learn the ins and outs, balance things out, let us get our feet wet before you kick the cinderblock off the pier.

Make patches stack. As is, a 50u patch of silver sulfa/styptic is on par with old bruisepacks/ointment. Disregarding the fact that it takes 50u to accomplish this, the fact that I can't stack them means that they eat up space for a small amount of heals. If I could still make a 100u beaker and make it into 5 20u patches in a stack, they heal less and go farther than spending all my time cranking out maxed patches, and make it actually possible to refill medkits, possibly with improved chem mixes, providing a benefit for the chemist to make a trip down to storage to 'improve' the kits for everyone. Or fill them with poison with the normal name, because lolantag le funny healgriff.

Remove complexity. I'm not saying make every chemical do just one thing, but having to remember the effect of each chem injected, patched and if it works in our out of crit, what the side effects are... it's a fucking lot to take in. Start off simple, then add stuff like overdose and application later, going back into the weaning us into the idea thing. If we start off with styptic being a decent replacement for bicard, people get in the habit of using it once bicard is pulled, then adding in overdose levels and side effects, people will already be acclimated and not bleat as loudly.

Post by **ShizCalev** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:22 pm #60873

JUST AS A NOTE, THE STIMULANT VIRUS SYMPTOM NOW CAUSES AN EXTREMELY LETHAL (AKA WILL KILL THE FUCK OUT OF YOU WITHOUT FAIL) ADDICTION TO EPHEDRINE NOW THAT HYPERZINE WAS REMOVED.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:01 pm #60927

Come to think of it, doesn't toxin filter produce anti-tox, now charcoal? Because if filter filters EVERYTHING in you system, all the time, that's OP as fuck.

allura · Post by **allura** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:04 pm #60947

ShizCalev wrote:JUST AS A NOTE, THE STIMULANT VIRUS SYMPTOM NOW CAUSES AN EXTREMELY LETHAL (AKA WILL KILL THE FUCK OUT OF YOU WITHOUT FAIL) ADDICTION TO EPHEDRINE NOW THAT HYPERZINE WAS REMOVED.

fixed, thanks

Pennwick · Post by **Pennwick** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:20 pm #60961

Actually it kind of makes sense that if your body stopped producing stimulants you'd be hit with the side effects of the addiction. It would only occur if you got cured frome your stimulant disease. The real problem is addiction wont go from stage 4 to cured. I put up a PR to fix that.

Toxic Filter actually just directly heals toxin damage so no worries about it being more OP than it was before.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:33 pm #60971

Healing being shit, can we address how WILDLY OVERPOWERED traitor chemist is now? Goon chems in smoke, almost no time and effort into instant fucking obliteration of a pretty fucking large area

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:05 am #61013

allura wrote:
ShizCalev wrote:JUST AS A NOTE, THE STIMULANT VIRUS SYMPTOM NOW CAUSES AN EXTREMELY LETHAL (AKA WILL KILL THE FUCK OUT OF YOU WITHOUT FAIL) ADDICTION TO EPHEDRINE NOW THAT HYPERZINE WAS REMOVED.
fixed, thanks

Fixed how? Because ephedrine is VERY different from hyperzine on a basic level. Stimulant was balanced because it made you go fast. Full stop. Ephedrine also reduces stuns and knockdown, a completely separate and VERY powerful effect. With one symptom, I can become security's worst fucking nightmare, with a few extra chems (20u crank, synap), I'm almost as unstunnable as a fucking hulk. Actually moreso, because disablers don't even work.

allura · Post by **allura** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:53 am #61036

Snakebutt wrote:
allura wrote:
ShizCalev wrote:JUST AS A NOTE, THE STIMULANT VIRUS SYMPTOM NOW CAUSES AN EXTREMELY LETHAL (AKA WILL KILL THE FUCK OUT OF YOU WITHOUT FAIL) ADDICTION TO EPHEDRINE NOW THAT HYPERZINE WAS REMOVED.
fixed, thanks
Fixed how? Because ephedrine is VERY different from hyperzine on a basic level. Stimulant was balanced because it made you go fast. Full stop. Ephedrine also reduces stuns and knockdown, a completely separate and VERY powerful effect. With one symptom, I can become security's worst fucking nightmare, with a few extra chems (20u crank, synap), I'm almost as unstunnable as a fucking hulk. Actually moreso, because disablers don't even work.

ephedrine is a placeholder. the stimulant chemical is currently in development.

Incomptinence · Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:19 am

Full comprehensive goon chemistry is madness. Read a story of an admin deleting most reagent sources in the game and emptying containers then the chemists just made bombs out of chips and water.

Post by **oranges** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:35 am #61122

dezzmont wrote:So considering from testimony that this was literally rubberstamped in, and the problems are so apparent they burn into my freaking soul, shouldn't be too hard for any coder looking in on this to earn themselves some major cred and reverting this, unless there really is a compelling reason not to do it other than "It doesn't suck AS BAD as you think..."

Mainly it's because we hate you

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:46 am #61152

As someone who plays MD more than chemistry I just want bruise packs and ointment back. People overdosing on silver sulfadazine patches makes people avoid me in favor of treating themselves more than they avoided me for treatment before. I thought one of the things keeping us from a more in depth bay like med system was that our players were too retarded/didn't want to spend too much time in medbay. The only decent healing capabilities are in the hands of the three players who have chemistry access. Doctors are more useless now and good luck if those three players with access don't know what they're doing.

Spoiler:

Color reagent is neat. I don't see why we couldn't have had it on trek chem though.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:52 am #61154

Colour reagents have been around for a fairly long while now. Grind up crayons for colours, then make coloured burgers and shit.

TZK13 · Post by **TZK13** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:16 am #61157

That's not what they're referring to Lum, they're referring to the new "colorful reagent" which allows you to paint mobs, objects, and turfs either red, blue, green, or yellow at random. Personally while I've probably been the person to use it the most so far and it's certainly funny to paint the entire crew like a rainbow I do find it too easy to make and spam everywhere. What's worse is that currently there's no way to actually remove it if you get coloured, goofball does have a PR up that allows space cleaner to clean you though.

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:00 pm #61329

Also smoking kill you kinda sucks. I can't be a chain smoking detective without passing out all the time.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:00 am #61349

I've yet to see the colorful reagent in-game and I haven't seen any recipe for it, is this some sort of cool kids club only reagent.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:46 am #61359

MMMiracles wrote:I've yet to see the colorful reagent in-game and I haven't seen any recipe for it, is this some sort of cool kids club only reagent.

Check the changelog.

Edit: actually I remember you using it last round, so this is fixed.

Comrade Leo · Post by **Comrade Leo** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:12 pm #61627

Like Weeyakk I've been playing a bit of med aside from my other two regular jobs, got some feedback on a few things:

The renamed patches? Burn patch/bruise patch in the medikits, absolutely useless. 20 damage each they heal, and they are one time use. Ok for cuts and scraps, but in an emergency with multiple casualties and you have a belt full and you are the only form of help around, it's goodnight suzie. Belt has 7 slots, using the medkits, 2 burn patches, 2 brute patchs, 1 epipen, a sabutomol pill and charcoal syringe is as much as you can fit in. The amount of healing you can get out of those is sub-par. If it's intended for emergency use only - give us a first responder kit instead with either - much more expanded medikit with double or triple the supplies than a regular kit, or something similar to the bruise pack/ointment that does both and is multi-use, or a belt that can fit more stuff in it.

>Don't tell us to just carry more medkits in our satchels
We need that slot for the defib.

I'm fine with the default sleeper chems, they are nice, and work nicely. Cryo however, holy dog shit you put a person in there and they suck up 1/3 of the chems from the beaker. If you got a busy medbay, it runs out fast. Add a cryo button to inject specific amounts of chems rather than always injecting.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:35 pm #61632

What I've been seeing, from spectating, being a patient and playing as a MD.

Tricord has been replaced with Synthmeat. Beforehand Chemists would leave their front table full of Tricord pills, now they leave their tables full of synthmeat patches.
Sleepers and Cyro cells are king. No one bothers using a medkit as its a waste of time, if you come into medbay your either tossed into a sleeper cell or a cyro tube.
Medkits are only effective in healing minor wounds for a single person, they are ineffective in healing multiple people with much more severe wounds.

Personally I really, really, wish we at least stuck with the oldchem names. Its much easier to tell at a glance what a "Bruise Pack" heals than what a "Styptic Powder Patch" or a "Saline-Glucose Solution Patch " heals.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:12 pm #61685

Because omnizine can kill people in higher doses, mediborgs end up killing more people than helping them when in an emergency.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:33 pm #61704

Oh god you dumb fuck goofball you turned the stimulant disease into a murder disease because you get addicted to morphine from the disease that makes you faster