Maintenance Access Config

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:17 pm #60816

This runoff poll is to find if we want to give assistants and security maintenance access when there are more than 20 readied players in the lobby.

This is assuming that my PR (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/7244) will be accepted by coderbus and used on the server.

This means that for rounds with fewer than 20 readied players in the lobby, assistants and security will always get maintenance access.

The "Only assistants should get maint access" option has been eliminated so we can reach a majority decision on which of the remaining two options we want to go with.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:21 pm #60823

Maintenance access is what Security needs, but is it something they deserve?

Anyone who has played Security will admit that having access to maintenance from the get go is a good asset, even if its just to pursue someone into maintenance only to be blocked by them closing the door on you.

However the counterargument is that if Officers and Assistants have maintenance access then suddenly antagonists have even less areas to work with.

Whatever the outcome, either Assistants and Security should get Maintenance access together, or not at all.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:29 pm #60825

I'd rather neither of them got it, and instead have to get it from the HoP. Or simply break in, as maint is one of the easiest places to break into.

I liked it when maintenance was genuinely deserted.

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:30 pm #60826

No maint for anyone else except engineers.
Less people roaming maint = more room for antags to do gimmicks like kidnapping and less getting noticed immediately and therefore resorting to murderboning.

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:02 pm #60833

Violaceus wrote:---

This was and will be like that in 90% of cases

So what are you saying? Is that a problem?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:07 pm #60834

Everyone having maint feels fine on Eff3 right now but that's probably more a lowpop thing

Assistants on highpop don't need maint. If they want to get in, they can break in. Same goes for Security. Maint is not just supposed to be "hallways without lights".

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:12 pm #60839

What I'd really like is if access automatically changed if a certain threshold of players was reached.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2639

Until then, we're going to want to settle on one of the options presented in the poll.

We can also set Basil to have maint access, while Sybil does not, as they're usually lowpop and highpop, respectively.

The poll doesn't have to be the end-all deciding factor here, so post here if this sounds good to you.

danno · Post by **danno** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:55 pm #60858

Basil currently has both and there hasn't been a problem with that at aaaaaaaaaaallllllll. I don't know why anyone would want either of them disabled. 90 pop must be pretty drastically different.

Duncdar · Post by **Duncdar** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:34 pm #60923

That is, except for Jane's maintenance pillow parties.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:20 pm #60932

People like ikarrus don't recognize that the host randomly changing configs for epic greytide christmas and then never setting them back is a problem

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:23 pm #60934

Oh I recognize that as a problem, I'm just doing something about it.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:09 am #61016

I made the first poll because scaredy told me to, it got accepted, I put forth the effort to see assistant maint removed to improve sybil, but scaredy just reverted it. Do you really blame me for not wanting to go through this fucking charade again? Fuck off with your presumptuous sniping.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:18 am #61063

well you know generally the decision of a headmin will hold more momentum than that of just about anyone else
especially considering sos isnt even an admin anymore

iRazgriz · Post by **iRazgriz** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:11 pm #61225

People that need maint access:
Engineers - Cables and hull breaches
Atmo Techs - Piping and turbine, incinerator etcerera
Cargo - Deliver faster, get crates from maint

People that don't need that:
Everyone else.

Maybe the heads of staff could use that. Maybe.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:12 pm #61269

Medical can use maint access to get to corpses or wounded.
Security can use maint access to get to shitters who hacked in.
Assistants...can use maint access to build a temple to the Gray Old Ones.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:13 am #61392

The issue isn't completely black and white.
Personally I think that neither sec of assistants should get maint, because if nothing else, 20 brain dead assistants every round is just free maint access to anyone.

That said, maint needs to function as it does on metastation. Namely, that all people in a given department, can access the maint doors in their department, as well as any doors in maint that will lead them from their department, through maint to the NEAREST main corridor.

So for example on box, everyone in medbay would be able to take the maint door above viro, and go through the maint doors north, up into the main corridor, next to robotics.
From a gameplay perspective, it means people can still worm around in maint, but without true maint access, only have free reign over a small area around their departmnent. It also means they have an escape route, if their departmnt is a plasma fire/getting eaten by the singulo etc etc.

And if anyone doesn't know by the way, this is done by configuring the airock electronics to have any of the following access levels, as opposed to the defaul, have all of the following. So with the above example, the doors the doctors can use, require EITHER medbay access, OR maint access.

Edit: Also asking the hop of maint access isn't fucking hard. Sec officers never have trouble getting it, and assistants rarely have trouble either. It provides a soft barrier to maint entry, since lazy shitters can't be bothered talking to the hop.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:00 am #61401

I feel like I've seen this poll a dozen times now...
Still I've begged for sec maint many a time, and I'm interested to see how it goes now that majority are voting the same way.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:20 am #61411

Medical in theory should never need maint access. In theory. We all know in reality everyone WANTS maint access at the least.

LIkewise, security shouldn't need mantinence access unless mantinence is not a job specific area. Assistants having maint access would make it non-specific to jobs.

Assistants have no need for maint access and in fact should in no way ever get enhanced access on anyone else. Having a bottomed out access level is supremely useful for a lot of reasons.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:35 am #61436

1. Assistants have all of them public areas of the station, or ALTERNATIVELY they could go ask the HoP for a job, or maint access. It takes 10 seconds and I have not once been denied.
2. antags can get maint access just as easily as assistants via the HoP (or even easier, since traitors can get syndie cards/emags). Also assistants having maint means there's MORE reason for sec to go ask the HoP for maint access, since there's 20 people without a job crawling around out of sight.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:48 am #61438

Delicious wrote:1. assistant is pointless without maintenance
2. antagonists need maintenance to be a place to hide from security/base of operations/place to perform nefarious deeds

"assistants can only be antagonists"

you've said some retarded grey tide apologist shit but this is by far the most retarded

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:27 am #61519

Delicious wrote:1. assistant is pointless without maintenance

Are you for real? What happened to assistant being the tutorial job for learning the game's UI? ...Or actually assisting, why do you need maintenance to assist anyone?

mikecari · Post by **mikecari** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:38 am #61522

Delicious wrote:1.assistant is pointless without maintenance

>Hurr hurr I can't commit crimes and get away with them as an assistant now.

It's this kind of selfish attitude that gives assistants a bad name.

AnonymousNow · Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:58 pm

I always wondered why medical doctors, who often have to go retrieve bodies, don't have access to maintenance, a place where a lot of bodies are made and hidden.

CocaneStyle · Post by **CocaneStyle** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:42 pm #61589

Maintenance needs to be less populated not more, that's what makes it special in the first place. Not to mention roles that have ZERO responsibility should get no access.

allura · Post by **allura** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:54 pm #61597

can we leave assmaint alone

iRazgriz · Post by **iRazgriz** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:24 pm #61610

allura wrote:can we leave assmaint alone

Why would the lowest crewmember have access to one of the most delicate areas of the station right after AI upload?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:32 pm #61614

iRazgriz wrote:
allura wrote:can we leave assmaint alone
Why would the lowest crewmember have access to one of the most delicate areas of the station right after AI upload?

>most delicate after the ai upload

whoa what

Comrade Leo · Post by **Comrade Leo** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:36 pm #61616

Either both sec and asst get maint or neither get it, that's my feeling on the issue. I lean towards giving them maint, otherwise it turns into a meta shitfest.

Clown/mime should keep maint (or get it depending on the station, nothing more spooky than hearing random clown shoes or that white face in the dark..), engineers/atmos should get access.

iRazgriz · Post by **iRazgriz** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:45 pm #61617

Cecily wrote:
iRazgriz wrote:
allura wrote:can we leave assmaint alone
Why would the lowest crewmember have access to one of the most delicate areas of the station right after AI upload?
>most delicate after the ai upload

whoa what

Access to plasma canisters
Tools and equipment
No cameras
Convenient hiding places
Windows to space
Exposed wiring and pipes
Piss easy chance to connect disposals to space
Connects to the rear areas of the station aka 1 door to hack instead of 2-3

QuartzCrystal · Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:59 pm

Can we get a run off vote between the top two options? I personally would like security to have maintenance but not assistants, but when it comes down to it I just rather neither have the option. I'm sure there are some folks who voted for assistants to have access who would just prefer for both groups to not have it.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:22 pm #61629

What's the point of a runoff vote if one of the options get a majority vote?

Even if it's not exactly over 50%, I have doubts that everyone who voted for "Assistants only" would vote "No maint for anybody".

We'll have to see in two days. It may not even matter should we choose to go with automatic access scaling.

QuartzCrystal · Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:50 pm

Don't mind me, didn't even look at the percentages, just blinded by my want to see no assistants in maintenance.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:19 am #61754

Yeah let's do a vote between whether ass + sec gets maint or neither, obviously people don't want just assistants getting maint

capi duffman · Post by **capi duffman** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:19 am #61834

Neither, I think.
I'd consider maint for sec, but certainly not for assistants, so, in the interest of keeping maint as a secretive and dangerous area, that you may access all the same if you simply ask politely to the HOP, I think only those with real bussiness in maint should have access to it (engineers, atmos...)

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:57 am #61850

Runoff Poll begins now. Please read my post and vote again.

This runoff poll is to find if we want to give assistants and security maintenance access when there are more than 20 readied players in the lobby.

This is assuming that my PR (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/7244) will be accepted by coderbus and used on the server.

This means that for rounds with fewer than 20 readied players in the lobby, assistants and security will always get maintenance access.

The "Only assistants should get maint access" option has been eliminated so we can reach a majority decision on which of the remaining two options we want to go with.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:12 am #61858

I have a feeling this is going to be a very close vote, so its going to be around 50/50 either way.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:14 am #61859

Steelpoint wrote:I have a feeling this is going to be a very close vote, so its going to be around 50/50 either way.

>Accusations of poll stuffing by puppet accounts
>Small sample size
>Headmins may be needed to make a final call that half of the community does not want

Literally the worst outcome.

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:43 am #61869

Could I get some reasoning behind assistant maint?
Why do assistants need maintenance access?

Imo there's 0 reasons for it. With any other job I can come up with at least one excuse; medics retrieving bodies, security chasing antags, cargo retrieving crates etc.

The only reason I found for it was that they can use maint access to build a temple to the Gray Old Ones. ...Which an engineer could also do, and should, since he's an engineer, the builder of things.

And a one very good reason why not is because:

lumipharon wrote:20 brain dead assistants every round is just free maint access to anyone.

This disrupts the game balance. Assistants as whole (when not played by a newbie) disrupt game balance by making everyone else work harder while they get to do nothing but participate in the chaos, being revved, culted or go antaghunting.

Can't we just finally do a favor for everyone (who main any other job than assistant, and actually set up the singulo, cryo, mine, do R&D every round) and make assistant the job they were intended to be; the tutorial job.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you can't play the game the way you want to, you can play however you want. But if you do something to benefit the whole station, you should get some MAJOR advantages to that guy who doesn't want to give their bit of contribution. Or an easier way to do it here: give no advantages to the guy who doesn't contribute.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:50 am #61871

Giving assistants maint crap because half the time, if not more, assistants are the most populous role, and that just means maint gets flooded by people that have no logical reason to even be in there.

Where as if they don't have maint, it takes like 20 seconds to go to the hop and get maint access. Unless you or the hop is being a shitter, they will have zero problems getting maint access. The result? People that take a small amount of time an effort to do a most basic level of socialising get maint access, while lazy shitters don't.

Literally please explain a benefit of having round start maint access?

Edit: Also I'm not sure why high pop even comes into it - it is the exact same situation regardless of pop.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:21 pm #61938

What was the exact result of the original poll?
I dont really see why the runoff didnt get a separate thread

zionn · Post by **zionn** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:06 pm #61945

How about we just fucking keep everything like it has always been and be happy? Assistants have got maint access for years and suddenly people are getting triggered by it.

Besides, security having maint acces seems fine to me.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:54 pm #62019

Yeah, I hate greytiding as much as the next guy, but maintenance is all they have, and with some rounds being as long as they are with so many people assistant is sometimes all that is left.

But I've also been begging for sec maint for a long time too. I vote for overhaul, everyone has maint around their own department, in case of fire/flood/vaccum/spacebees
Assistants/engineers/sec/heads have all maint. (like that other dude said earlier)

But i'd settle for just sec/ass maint

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:57 pm #62041

There's also a "EVERYONE_HAS_MAINT_ACCESS" option but I'm going to go ahead and veto it ayy

This is just a runoff vote for what config we want to use. Other ideas that need coding should go here --> https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=9

iRazgriz · Post by **iRazgriz** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:03 pm #62072

Violaceus wrote:Not all heads have maintenance access.

If we decide to give maint. to both assistants and security, maybe consider giving it to RD and CMO also?

And, while I am for maint. for both parties, I can not not notice it would be another change that makes detective less and less important.

Next thing we know is that there are scanners in sec lockers and the detective is left to be a useless, gimmicky job with basically 0 relevance.
Not like now it's really relevant.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:07 pm #62246

lumipharon wrote:they could go ask the HoP for a job, or maint access. It takes 10 seconds and I have not once been denied.

Do you actually play at all?
There was 0 times HoP gave greyshirt me any access except when some other head told him to do so.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:30 pm #62364

when im hop i give maint to anyone who asks for it
maint is one of the most useful accesses IMO, since you can do so much with it. i love having maint access in any job and wouldnt deny that to others unless i know for a fact that theyre going to kill someone there or something

iRazgriz · Post by **iRazgriz** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:32 pm #62368

Looks like this will be down for headmin decision.

Le top keks

Should Assistants and Security get round-start maintenance access in high-population rounds?