[MRP] Lavaland elites on the station?

[Vekter]

We had a little pow-wow in #admin-bus about this and couldn't really come to a consensus. Should Lavaland elites be allowed to come to the station on MRP?

For clarification: if a miner challenges an elite by destroying one of the tentacles and dies, the elite loses half its health and can walk free around Lavaland to attack other miners. They are already allowed to come to the station and cause hell on LRP, but we're discussing if this should be allowed on MRP.

Pros:
Could result in interesting combat/additional chaos during the round.
Way to get more dead players back into the round (either via the elite itself or through ERTs).
Interesting emergent gameplay through "peaceful" elite mobs.

Cons:
Despite having only half of their health, they still hit pretty hard and can be hard to kill.
Tends to produce the "Wizard effect" where rounds become more about killing them than actually doing anything interesting.
Nothing sucks more than trying to be a peaceful mob and having the station kill you anyway.

[Sylphet]

Ew, no. Creatures from a spicy nightmare planet should not be friendly, if they're even allowed on to the station at all. Would they even be intelligent enough to know how to use the shuttle to reach the station ? They can add chaos to the round, sure - but we already have dynamic for this. And the wizard effect thing is completely right from every time that I've seen one on station, which is not healthy for RP. Very hard pass from me on this.

[Fikou]

Would they even be intelligent enough to know how to use the shuttle to reach the station ?

They aren't, they mechanically can't use shuttles, they usually get to station by some poor miner launching the shuttle to station in hopes of escaping and the elite getting on last second. This is a cool thing when it happens and shouldn't be changed.

[Armhulen]

Force players to at the very very least be neutral but definitely not friendly. You're not playing your role and getting in the mindset of a lavaland elite if you're friendly.

[Kassori]

The can also use Jacob's Ladder, that's how you get broodmothers ladder camping with explosive babies

Its hard to tell the difference between a victorious lavaland mob and one that has been slaved by a miner

If a change was made, maybe just don't let them bone, let them kill aggressors.

[iwishforducks]

Lavaland elites have nothing to do /but/ go to the station. Miners have the best chance of killing them on lavaland- doubly moreso when there is no confined arena. Any miner that you can kill by catching off guard probably would die to you in a fight regardless. I mean, good luck even finding a miner to kill in the first place. You'll be spending a majority of your time camping the lavaland outpost because you have zero tools at your disposal to hunt down miners. Which is to say, killing miners is suicidal and possibly the most boring decision a lavaland elite can make. Let lavaland elites do exactly what they were designed around doing- killing people.

[Armhulen]

The can also use Jacob's Ladder, that's how you get broodmothers ladder camping with explosive babies

Its hard to tell the difference between a victorious lavaland mob and one that has been slaved by a miner

If a change was made, maybe just don't let them bone, let them kill aggressors.

But they should though. They're a lavaland elite. What are they even supposed to do if not kill?

[Kassori]

Sorry for not being clear, I support them on the station as they are now, being victorious against a miner shouldn't be a punishment. If a change was to be made, at most, limit them to the same murder one limitations most other antags have.

This is also a policy argument, and how it relates to MRP, not a lore one.

[Sylphet]

Lavaland elites have nothing to do /but/ go to the station.

But they should though. They're a lavaland elite. What are they even supposed to do if not kill?

If creatures from lavaland have nothing to do but go on the station, then that's a fault of their design, no ? Other lavaland ghost roles have content, these do not. Lore questions aside - we shouldn't be encouraging poor design through policy.

[Misdoubtful]

Lavaland elites have nothing to do /but/ go to the station.

But they should though. They're a lavaland elite. What are they even supposed to do if not kill?

If creatures from lavaland have nothing to do but go on the station, then that's a fault of their design, no ? Other lavaland ghost roles have content, these do not. Lore questions aside - we shouldn't be encouraging poor design through policy.

Would they even be intelligent enough to know how to use the shuttle to reach the station ?

They aren't, they mechanically can't use shuttles, they usually get to station by some poor miner launching the shuttle to station in hopes of escaping and the elite getting on last second. This is a cool thing when it happens and shouldn't be changed.

I kinda agree with both here. It feels kinda weird to say, 'don't go the station' when they already can't go up on their own. Things like outpost cameras, the 'fat fingered' bit that ashlizards have, the lack of hand magic that elites have all exist. If it 'ought to be impossible for them to get on the station wouldn't it be best as a codified solution? That said, it feels like the tools for this code-wise are pretty much in place.

The can also use Jacob's Ladder, that's how you get broodmothers ladder camping with explosive babies

Asides from this haha.

Lavaland elites have nothing to do /but/ go to the station.

This is true, but they also opt to take the role, fully knowing what content is available upon taking it.

---

All that said, if the same person keeps doing this, couldn't that person be asked to slow that boil to a simmer?

Its its unhealthy for the round wouldn't that also be something to consider and if its happening every round that could be icky and something to consider too.

There could also be some IC admin powered solutions, right?

[Timberpoes]

Again, a code solution is not server agonistic. Any code solution would either apply to LRP as well, or have to be configged in which case removing the feature becomes difficult if we coders decide we don't want it.

I want to steer the conversation away from code-backed solutions and back into the realm of whether this can be addressed purely by policy first and foremost.

This discussions seems a lot more around how Lavaland Elites interact with murderbone policy, rather than if they should or should not go to the station z-level. Is there a problem with Lavaland elites killing everyone who goes to the Lavaland z-level on Manuel right now? If no, then the issue is a lot less "should" they murderbone and more "where" they can murderbone.

I believe Lavaland Elites should be allowed to go to the station if they're able to get there. I believe the other MRP rules currently can be used to bwoink them for joining the station and friendtagging/validhunting antags. They can also be used to bwoink them for joining the station and FNR murderboning.

I would, personally, see a more nuanced approach. On Lavaland, they're king. They do what they want. But on the station, I'd think they should not get a murderbone pass but should be able to benefit from the exceptions that allow antags to kill. Manuel is its own thing and I wouldn't want to see Lavaland elites forced to be hostile to the station either - I've genuinely seen friendly Lavaland Elites on LRP too. Think highly relaxed escalation; afterall, the Lavaland elite chose to be the invader in that context rather than defending its own realm of Lavaland when it goes to the station.

[SkeletalElite]

I've genuinely seen friendly Lavaland Elites on LRP too. Think highly relaxed escalation; afterall, the Lavaland elite chose to be the invader in that context rather than defending its own realm of Lavaland when it goes to the station.

Can't miners tame lavaland elites once they beat them? That's probably where the "friendly" ones come from most of the time and even if rogue elites were disallowed from being friendly it still doesn't discount the possibility of their existence due to taming.

[Cobby]

If someone is stupid enough to bring them to the station they should be talked to vs. the monster that managed to get on the station.

The fact shuttle camping can easily be fixed by just sending the shuttle after you depart on lavaland so its majority of the time onstation is a player problem, not an admin one. On the admin side, you have to realize there are some features that are explicitly designed to pull you away from what you are doing and force you to engage with the world in a way that is unconventional than your typical shift, including ways you personally might not like (see combat). There are times you wont be able to do this, and you will consequently be punished even though you feasibly cannot spin all the plates at once meaning you will need other people to help you spin those plates, and sometimes not all the crew will aid thinking that "someone else will fix it". Sometimes, even with everyone working their best, you get outplayed and/or too much is occurring at once. That is not a bad thing, as these opportunities can tell interesting stories just as much as your fabled greenshift.

MRP is suppose to be a blend of roleplay moments AND combat opportunities. A big monster who killed the miners and has now found its way to the station due to either an unsuspecting victim and/or a failed escape attempt by someone on lavaland seems like it has plenty of room to satisfy both.

The only thing I MAY would consider is discouraging people who just rush SM pipes or something but I dont think any of the elites have ventcrawl so dont think its too much of a fuss.

[Misdoubtful]

If someone is stupid enough to bring them to the station they should be talked to vs. the monster that managed to get on the station.

I'm kinda here too. I'm looking at it from the same point of view as the person that brings a mega fauna up to the station. They aren't quite the same, but there are a lot of similarities. Outside of my bit about someone that would be actively trying to use the role to beeline for the station over and over, it really is on other people for managing to get it up there, mostly.

[cacogen]

A murderbone ghost role should not be allowed on the station on MRP. If I want to die trying to complete my job and sit out for forty-five minutes we have Dynamic antagonists for that.

[Dopamiin]

just here to say that i think its really cool and funny that nonantag miners are allowed to let loose a death monster on the station killing multiple crew members and it really helps increase my enjoyment of the round especially when they're given instructions to kidnap me, also a nonantag

[Misdoubtful]

just here to say that i think its really cool and funny that nonantag miners are allowed to let loose a death monster on the station killing multiple crew members and it really helps increase my enjoyment of the round especially when they're given instructions to kidnap me, also a nonantag

This isn't okay though?

There is a difference between people intentionally bringing fauna/elites to the station and those trying to actively escape from fauna/elites and getting unlucky, or accidentally bringing one up.

I've genuinely seen friendly Lavaland Elites on LRP too. Think highly relaxed escalation; afterall, the Lavaland elite chose to be the invader in that context rather than defending its own realm of Lavaland when it goes to the station.

Can't miners tame lavaland elites once they beat them? That's probably where the "friendly" ones come from most of the time and even if rogue elites were disallowed from being friendly it still doesn't discount the possibility of their existence due to taming.

Yeah lets not forget this bit either. Not allowing them on the station means not allowing tamed elites to do their thing, whether they get tamed by an antag or nonantag.

[JusticeGoat]

just here to say that i think its really cool and funny that nonantag miners are allowed to let loose a death monster on the station killing multiple crew members and it really helps increase my enjoyment of the round especially when they're given instructions to kidnap me, also a nonantag

The incident in question was a player controlled mob convinced a miner to let them come back up, was not a mindless npc.

[Cobby]

i read the above (quote) as sarcasm, was it genuine lol?

[Dopamiin]

i read the above (quote) as sarcasm, was it genuine lol?

it was genuine and i ahelped it and was told it was allowed and then linked to this thread

[Dax Dupont]

A murderbone ghost role should not be allowed on the station on MRP. If I want to die trying to complete my job and sit out for forty-five minutes we have Dynamic antagonists for that.

I feel like maybe a timegate for some of this stuff would be nice. Honestly if it's manuel and it's 1.5 hours in? go for it imo

[spookuni]

I agree with Timber for the most part - the problem with elites coming to the station isn't so much that they do it, it's whether they should have free reign to kill anyone they please and act to depopulate the server because they can while they're there.

Elites should be (and as far as I am aware, are) allowed to kill anyone they want who they stumble across roaming lavaland, anything from ashwalkers to free golems to rando miners, but I dislike the concept of turning them into essentially fully murderbone-enabled antagonists if they make it to the station, and I think the best way to go about that would be to leave them bound to escalation - if heavily loosened "because they shouted at me angrily " type escalation - while on the station.

[Omega_DarkPotato]

Worth noting that at least one of the lavaland elite types (herald) can't really single-target people that well, given that it's basically a weaker Colossus. Those death bolts, even if they're "weaker", are still nothing to play around with, and shotgun and spiral both have quite a bit of room for very wide-ranged destruction.

As elite mobs, they're also all very slow, impossible to hide, and are free game for anyone on the crew to try and attempt to go after - if it's an antagonist that can't hide in any way, shape, or form, why shouldn't it get a pre-emptive "you're good to go for the first attack"?

Finally, given that a lavaland elite can ONLY get to the station through outside action allowing them to do so, I really don't get why there's such a fuss over them getting "Free murder time" - especially for something that iirc has the flavor text of "you are an enemy of nanotransen". They're not like golems or podpeople who can get up to the station by only their own actions - and only the herald is capable of actually speaking in the first place.


Whoda thunk that bringing a giant, VERY dangerous example of the local wildlife to the station would result in death, destruction, and mayhem???

[Indie-ana Jones]

I was personally never a fan of friendly elites that weren't tamed, pretty sure I added some big red text which said to be aggressive to humans at some point. I don't play MRP but I feel like if enough mistakes happen to where an elite does get on station (a miner has to lose the fight, someone has to then call the shuttle up while the elite is on it), they're basically like a megafauna except weaker and player-controlled. I would personally say anyone who lacks survival instinct to get away without sufficient means of handling the elite deserves what comes next.

This extends outside of what's being discussed sort of but if they needed to be more manageable on station level a good solution would be to make it so they take full damage from lasers. The last set of changes I made did make them a bit more bearable stationside (Pandora teleport nerfed so it can only go where it can see), so I don't think they're extremely crazy as of right now. I do have something planned for them down the line so any policy which gets decided here might need to be looked at again in the future.

[mrmelbert]

I'm getting pretty tired with seeing miners bring elites on the station -> elites inevitably get upset at something -> elites start to murderbone. Maybe the act of bringing elites on board on purpose should be verboten if we're giving them a murderbonepass?

Non-antag miners should not be bringing elites on the station.
Antag miners should not be bringing elites on the station either. It's the same as subverting an AI to murderbone.

[cacogen]

A murderbone ghost role should not be allowed on the station on MRP. If I want to die trying to complete my job and sit out for forty-five minutes we have Dynamic antagonists for that.

I feel like maybe a timegate for some of this stuff would be nice. Honestly if it's manuel and it's 1.5 hours in? go for it imo

I like spending four hours to improve the cargo bay. I'm old. I like gravel.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

On the admin side, you have to realize there are some features that are explicitly designed to pull you away from what you are doing and force you to engage with the world in a way that is unconventional than your typical shift, including ways you personally might not like (see combat). There are times you wont be able to do this, and you will consequently be punished even though you feasibly cannot spin all the plates at once meaning you will need other people to help you spin those plates, and sometimes not all the crew will aid thinking that "someone else will fix it". Sometimes, even with everyone working their best, you get outplayed and/or too much is occurring at once. That is not a bad thing, as these opportunities can tell interesting stories just as much as your fabled greenshift.

MRP is suppose to be a blend of roleplay moments AND combat opportunities.

holy shit someone finally said it

[Not-Dorsidarf]

(note I agree that miner's shouldnt be intentionally bringing them aboard but if someone screws up trying to flee and the murder monster gets loose on the station, boom theres your conflict.

[Mothblocks]

Maybe the act of bringing elites on board on purpose should be verboten if we're giving them a murderbonepass?

I'm assuming you mean antags?

personally i agree with cobby--elites detracting from your jobs and forcing you to focus on your survival is cool and i think it does it a lot better than nuke ops or wizard. sometimes you just lose ?

[mrmelbert]

I'm assuming you mean antags?

Yeah, I don't think either antags without the murderbone pass or non-antags should be purposefully bringing elites on board at all.

Non-antags i'm sure no one will disagree with, but if we don't allow antags to murderbone, why would we allow them to murderbone by proxy?

[Cobby]

That should be implicit.

In general if you cannot murderbone you cannot have someone or something murderbone on your behalf*. Any change to that or discussion for/against that seems inappropriate to put here since you can proxybone a few ways without lava land elites.

*You CAN but you need the ok from a gamermin

[TheMidnghtRose]

An idea would be to let revived/tamed lavaland elites get either a name from the miner, or a name from the possessing ghost to differentiate them from the rogue ones. Or give them some kind of coloring that makes them different from the rogue ones.

[Vekter]

This came up again today and we need to actually get a policy figured out on this when possible please.

[Domitius]

Was auto-locked from inactivity. Re-opening it upon request!

[Imaginos]

Regarding the recent events that made this policy pop off again, I'd say it would be in the best interests if Lavaland Elites remained free in lavaland, but could not go back into the station. Every time they arrive on the station, it just causes way too much chaos, and the fact that we don't have a consistent opinion about it, makes it even worse for everyone.

TL;DR: Free to do whatever on lavaland, just don't go into the station (please)

[confused rock]

the fact that we don't have a consistent opinion about it, makes it even worse for everyone.

That's an interesting way to spin people disagreeing with your opinion as supporting your opinion

[Imaginos]

the fact that we don't have a consistent opinion about it, makes it even worse for everyone.

That's an interesting way to spin people disagreeing with your opinion as supporting your opinion

I was implying the fact there has been no consensus, especially when you take into account the fact that this policy thread was closed with no conclusion. Sorry if you took this the wrong way, but that's what I was trying to get across. While I am of the opinion that lavaland elites should stay in lavaland and lavaland only, I'd rather have an actual conclusion to this so that enforcement is actually adequate for once.

[ThatEngineer]

While I am likely unsuited for discussing this sort of issue, I believe that the elite fauna should mostly reside on lavaland and be able to bone as much as it wants. Only cavate is that it is on the person who manages to drag it up to the station in that case, unless it was an accident.
Gives a way to stop antags from second hand murderbone via elite fauna, and still (probably) lets the chaotic situation of one getting on the station happen occasionally. Like how someone always manages to mess up Xenomorph containment in a multitude of accidents.

Though we could probably kick the health down a bit more if it gets on the station Z-level, but that would mess with LRP and somehow be an issue in either a month down the line if we are lucky, or the week straight after.

[BebeYoshi]

This is Lavaland's elite flavour text if they win against the miner for reference:

to_chat(mychild, "<span class='boldwarning'>As the life in the activator's eyes fade, the forcefield around you dies out and you feel your power subside.\nDespite this inferno being your home, you feel as if you aren't welcome here anymore.\nWithout any guidance, your purpose is now for you to decide.</span>")
to_chat(mychild, "<b>Your max health has been halved, but can now heal by standing on your tumor. Note, it's your only way to heal.\nBear in mind, if anyone interacts with your tumor, you'll be resummoned here to carry out another fight. In such a case, you will regain your full max health.\nAlso, be weary of your fellow inhabitants, they likely won't be happy to see you!</b>")
to_chat(mychild, "<span class='big bold'>Note that you are a lavaland monster, and thus not allied to the station. You should not cooperate or act friendly with any station crew unless under extreme circumstances!</span>")

[Dreathtil]

This is Lavaland's elite flavour text if they win against the miner for reference:

to_chat(mychild, "<span class='boldwarning'>As the life in the activator's eyes fade, the forcefield around you dies out and you feel your power subside.\nDespite this inferno being your home, you feel as if you aren't welcome here anymore.\nWithout any guidance, your purpose is now for you to decide.</span>")
to_chat(mychild, "<b>Your max health has been halved, but can now heal by standing on your tumor. Note, it's your only way to heal.\nBear in mind, if anyone interacts with your tumor, you'll be resummoned here to carry out another fight. In such a case, you will regain your full max health.\nAlso, be weary of your fellow inhabitants, they likely won't be happy to see you!</b>")
to_chat(mychild, "<span class='big bold'>Note that you are a lavaland monster, and thus not allied to the station. You should not cooperate or act friendly with any station crew unless under extreme circumstances!</span>")

It is to my impression that the First text line has a lot of freedom implied with the Sentence "Without any guidance, your purpose is now for you to decide." for players and admins who may end up looking at it when making their decisions

while the third line which seems entirely policy based, and the sentence "You should not cooperate or act friendly with any station crew unless under extreme circumstances!" at least to my interpretation means, that you are an independent antag who should be killing all station crew you come across, only cooperate if your life is on the line or a similar extreme circumstance happens.

if anything I think there should at least be an added row to the murderbone chart for Lavaland Elites that helps clear this up. Something that can generally be pointed to for MRP.
And personally I think on MRP Free Lavaland Elites should be allowed to murderbone on Lavaland. But should not aim in any capacity to get station side and their freedom of murderboning should not extend to stationside.
Lastly while this is mostly my bias given I received a complaint about it. If this doesn't get addressed in some form or another, I feel other admins and players down the line will have to deal with this situation in some way.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

This is Lavaland's elite flavour text if they win against the miner for reference:

to_chat(mychild, "<span class='boldwarning'>As the life in the activator's eyes fade, the forcefield around you dies out and you feel your power subside.\nDespite this inferno being your home, you feel as if you aren't welcome here anymore.\nWithout any guidance, your purpose is now for you to decide.</span>")
to_chat(mychild, "<b>Your max health has been halved, but can now heal by standing on your tumor. Note, it's your only way to heal.\nBear in mind, if anyone interacts with your tumor, you'll be resummoned here to carry out another fight. In such a case, you will regain your full max health.\nAlso, be weary of your fellow inhabitants, they likely won't be happy to see you!</b>")
to_chat(mychild, "<span class='big bold'>Note that you are a lavaland monster, and thus not allied to the station. You should not cooperate or act friendly with any station crew unless under extreme circumstances!</span>")

in the year 2021 people still can't fucking spell "wary" on the internet

[cacogen]

know we now

[Pandarsenic]

I've played some Shaft Miner to develop a more informed opinion on this, and my official take now is "don't make Shaft Miners any more able to fuck up the round for anyone else than they already are."

[Coconutwarrior97]

Lavaland elites should not be brought to the station intentionally, but if they do wind up on station by chance or accident they are allowed to murderbone.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes, big scary monster role should be able to kill a bunch of people if it accidentally gets onto the station.
Jimmius: Yes.
Naloac: Yes.