Politics Thread: BLM Riots edition

[XSI]

Bottom post of the previous page:

There's more

[terranaut]

i dont get how people still fall for it

[Grazyn]

What I don't understand is why rioters are using sticks, stones and firebombs instead of actual guns. Isn't the 2nd amendment meant to fight the authoritarian government when it starts oppressing you?

[Actionb]

Depending on what you watch and get influenced by, you get a total different view of the situation.

I keep him cus he's one of the few alt sources information who constantly shits on mainstream and is self critical to the point is kinda demeaning.
You can't really skim someone and make statements about what he is either. He's being accused of being both left/right at the same time which makes him pretty centrist tbh. Rather that than CNN telling me i should kill x and journalists defending looting as some sort of universal right.

I don't get where he's defending anything other than his opinion that you are free to ignore.
Also, people aren't left or right, they just want to grill and go to the mall without getting shot.

(talking generally here, not about you personally)
See, that's what I mean. That's the problem.
He isn't centrist, or if he was, he's doing a piss poor job of it. Either way, he's catering to a right leaning audience (check the comments).

quote:

If you care more about Trump taking a picture (they mainly condemned him for clearing the way) in front of the church than the fact that far-left extremists (unproven) tried to destroy a church last night (somebody lit a fire in the basement that did minor damage). Then you are part of the problem (oof, generalize and strawman much??).

I'm not giving you my personal opinion (implying it's FACTS; i.e. I'm not free to ignore it), I will just tell you this:
Trump didn't apparently order any protestor to be gassed (apparently pepperballs and smoke grenades were used; same effect in that situation) or anything like that.
It was curfew (it wasn't; curfew was at 7pm, police cleared half an hour earlier (also note how the camera man is being assaulted)).

He's painting the wrong picture, either because of his bias or deliberately. Or both.
Sure, this is just one small bit from his videos... but when he's THAT misleading/wrong, why even bother with the rest of it?
I watched a few of his very first videos and it's a different kind of style. Way more open and critical. It's quiet impressive to see the topics, viewpoints and contents change over the years.


Being a liberal is fine. Being a liberal that doesn't know that they're actually distinctively conservative/right leaning is not fine. Faking to be a liberal is even worse.
That's where this "liberals are practically fascists!" shit comes from; liberal philosophy is much more susceptible to right philosophy than the left one.

Now add a couple of 'centrist' youtubers that don't realize that they're catering to the right (or pretend to not be doing that, looking at you Rubin!), and you might get an idea why something like antifa is actually necessary.

[Actionb]

Not a fan of "well if breitbart news says Biden is a pedo and MSNBC says he isn't, maybe the truth lies somewhere in between"

You can just accept you will never know the truth and move on instead of getting intentionally misguided by averaging out every extreme point of view.

[Jack7D1]

What I don't understand is why rioters are using sticks, stones and firebombs instead of actual guns. Isn't the 2nd amendment meant to fight the authoritarian government when it starts oppressing you?

Because at that point they can start shooting back. Military don't swear to defend a leader or position. But he constitution. So if things ever get to the point where the general public starts a literal armed rebellion. The military is likely going to toss out the incumbent. Rather than slaughter the population.

This also isn't the middle east so it's possible to make change without violence.

[Timbrewolf]

Not a fan of "well if breitbart news says Biden is a pedo and MSNBC says he isn't, maybe the truth lies somewhere in between"

You can just accept you will never know the truth and move on instead of getting intentionally misguided by averaging out every extreme point of view.

I said you have to use your fuckin brain to construct the truth out of different viewpoints. I shouldn't be surprised you couldn't even manage to do that to read a single post and jumped to "he must mean you just average everything together into a truth soup".

If one outlet is calling someone a child rapist and nobody else is acknowledging or reporting on it you dont conclude that they are like 1/10th child rapist.

Watching people in here purposely dive on the most retarded interpretation of everything they read is painful.

I'm convinced you use that picture of a cat as your forum avatar because you identify with the need to wear a helmet.

[Jack7D1]

I met this guy on the internet

[Grazyn]

What I don't understand is why rioters are using sticks, stones and firebombs instead of actual guns. Isn't the 2nd amendment meant to fight the authoritarian government when it starts oppressing you?

Because at that point they can start shooting back. Military don't swear to defend a leader or position. But he constitution. So if things ever get to the point where the general public starts a literal armed rebellion. The military is likely going to toss out the incumbent. Rather than slaughter the population.

This also isn't the middle east so it's possible to make change without violence.

So they're not gonna react as long as they use everything but guns? I suppose the strategy is to wait until rioters get bored and go home having looted and destroyed everything they could, then move in and go door to door arresting everyone identified from video surveillance.

[terranaut]

if you smash your own neighborhood you're kinda dumb
if you go to somebody elses neighborhood to smash it up you're a cunt

[Actionb]

I said you have to use your fuckin brain to construct the truth out of different viewpoints. I shouldn't be surprised you couldn't even manage to do that to read a single post and jumped to "he must mean you just average everything together into a truth soup".

If one outlet is calling someone a child rapist and nobody else is acknowledging or reporting on it you dont conclude that they are like 1/10th child rapist.

Watching people in here purposely dive on the most retarded interpretation of everything they read is painful.

I'm convinced you use that picture of a cat as your forum avatar because you identify with the need to wear a helmet.

Unless your 1/10th rapist example was only meant as a strawman, it is perfect for showing why "moving on until more information is available" can be better than trying to "construct the truth out of different viewpoints".

Spoiler:

If 1 out of 10 outlets calls someone a rapist, it's obviously nonsensical to say that they're 1/10th rapist.
That one outlet doesn't have definite proof, otherwise there wouldn't even be a discussion about it.
That also means that you don't and can't know for certain, otherwise you wouldn't even need to consult the different viewpoints.
But someone is either a rapist or they are not: the statements can't all be true. Contradiction. So you need to make a decision.

But how do you know which statements are true and which ones are false when any number of them could be 'propaganda' and your evaluation ("using your fucking brain") of the truthfulness of these statements also depends on your bias?
What if "the truth" you have constructed turns out to be a falsity? Can't exactly be "the truth" then, right?
Let's call it an opinion? Sure, but that still doesn't change the fact that you have come to that opinion by selecting one group of statements over another because you believed that group more than the other.
In the end, you have made a guess - nothing more.
Guessed correctly? Gratulations, noone cares that you were right because you couldn't have known for certain.
Guessed incorrectly? Well shit, maybe you falsely accused someone of being a rapist because you thought you were right.

Divining the truth when it cannot be proven is the job of religion.
Chosing one side over the other when there's contradictory and unprovable statements, is a bad idea. Your decision can affect other decisions down the line (constructing the truth becomes constructing a bias). That's also why it's a dumb idea to consult extremely biased sources like Breitbart or even TV FoxNews; you're practically being fed more contradictory statements... suddenly you ponder whether obamagate is actually a thing.

Keep the issue in mind, but don't decide on it and move on.

Also:
Imagine misinterpreting somebody's statement and then diving on that misinterpretation by first accusing them of having dived on a misinterpretation of your statement and then closing with a personal attack.
Feels bad, man.

[Grazyn]

Turns out Floyd had the 'rona. Combined with pre-existing conditions, "I can't breathe", I think the cop's trial will be fun to watch. Second wave of riots predicted when the cop is found not guilty.

[Takeguru]

Yeah I'm super not excited for that
Dude was hopped up on meth and fentanyl, had the 'rona, the "by-the-book" pin used by the officers likely just exacerbated the issues

In normal times, that's a hard case to make against the officers, and I really dislike the idea of throwing them under the bus to appease the masses as that's a massive perversion of the courts

[Actionb]

Minneapolis Police Union President: “I’ve Been Involved in Three Shootings Myself, and Not a One of Them Has Bothered Me”
https://theintercept.com/2020/06/02/min ... shootings/

Franklin, a burglary suspect, unarmed and 173 pounds, was found hiding in a basement by five officers who unleashed a dog on him. His family’s attorneys say an officer’s semiautomatic weapon accidentally went off, hitting two officers in the legs, and police responded by shooting and killing Franklin in anger. [...]
Kroll said that a good friend of his had killed Franklin: “stepped up and shot him in the head at close range.”

“The Franklin one was near and dear to my heart because he shot two friends of mine, and a very good friend of mine was the one who shot and killed him in the confrontation,” Kroll said.

[HommandoSA]

Turns out Floyd had the 'rona. Combined with pre-existing conditions, "I can't breathe", I think the cop's trial will be fun to watch. Second wave of riots predicted when the cop is found not guilty.

My prediction is the three cops that sat on him are gonna get convicted of manslaughter and the cop that was talking to the crowd is gonna get off.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Why don't they just Epstein the 4 cops in their cells? It'd be an easy solution to this whole mess.

[Grazyn]

[srifenbyxp]

When you have a ton of unemployed people - lootings gonna take place. There's no surprised that people will take advantage of """ Protests """.

[iksyp]

oh hey i just read through the thread nice to know that people want others to die because of how they generalize said group very cool guys thank you for solving racism o7

[Super Aggro Crag]

oh hey i just read through the thread nice to know that people want others to die because of how they generalize said group very cool guys thank you for solving racism o7

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion

[oranges]

Yeah but nobody cares about those locations

[XSI]

They upgraded the cop's charges to second degree murder
He's going to get off unless they can somehow get the entire jury to be protestors and antifa

[Armhulen]

They upgraded the cop's charges to second degree murder
He's going to get off unless they can somehow get the entire jury to be protestors and antifa

that is gonna piss people off so much oh my god

though one of the cops was really new to the team and told the guy to get off george's neck so I think he should be let go tbh

[Super Aggro Crag]

They upgraded the cop's charges to second degree murder
He's going to get off unless they can somehow get the entire jury to be protestors and antifa

that is gonna piss people off so much oh my god

though one of the cops was really new to the team and told the guy to get off george's neck so I think he should be let go tbh

nah they should kill him publically

just beat him to death in front of his family

[Nervere]

autopsy said he died of covid and fentanyl
he's gonna get acquitted or just not charged at all lol

[Helios]

Assaulting the banks is a good way to get your ass killed - it also wouldn't do anything since the majority of cash flow is digital.

Protests where the police were violent, and the protestors were not, are the ones who result in the longest term social change.

Minneapolis Police Union President: “I’ve Been Involved in Three Shootings Myself, and Not a One of Them Has Bothered Me”
https://theintercept.com/2020/06/02/min ... shootings/

> His family’s attorneys say

What do the Cop's lawyer say?
If you only listen to the prosecutor, or only listen to the defense attorney you're going to get a very skewed idea of a case.

[DrPillzRedux]

The riots when the cop goes free are gonna be nutty. Get your guns ready for the great bunkering.

[Grazyn]

[wesoda25]

wow the pixel quality is fitting

[Actionb]

What do the Cop's lawyer say?
If you only listen to the prosecutor, or only listen to the defense attorney you're going to get a very skewed idea of a case.

https://southsidepride.com/2013/10/29/h ... ranklin-2/
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2013/09/2 ... n-shooting
A whole bunch of cops go into a dark, cramped basement of a house that is surrounded by police to detain a criminal.
Nobody had the idea to turn on the lights.
They didn't bring any non-lethal weaponry.
They somehow lost control of the criminal although he was stuck in a cubby hole; one officer had time to punch him several times, call for a taser, etc.
They had a dog latched onto Franklin, or rather the robe that he stole, but beyond that the dog didn't really do anything? Have you seen K9s in action? They don't just let go and be like "Yep, done enough, time to chill."
They didn't bother to check for residue on Franklin's hand - but they did find his prints on the gun (where have we seen this before?).
They somehow managed to shoot the guy in the head 7 times, all from the right side, while he was sandwiched between two officers.
Also, Franklin was shot 10 times in total. So what's up with that?
Were they just making sure? I mean, anyone could survive having their head perforated by 9mm.
https://bringmethenews.com/news/officer ... n-shooting

The list goes on... and now the boss of the Minneapolis police union:
"I have been involved in 3 shootings myself, and not one of them has bothered me *chuckles"

[Jack7D1]

[Actionb]

wut?

[Stickymayhem]

Four officers with lethals trained on a guy. Guy pulls out gun
"Shoot, Shoot, Shoot to kill"
Some guys had the grand idea to only shoot twice.

what the fuck does this mean

can you stop posting cringe

[Actionb]

This twitter thread made me reconsider what I'd call shitcurity
https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/statu ... 3254456321

[Jack7D1]

[Helios]

i dont get how people still fall for it

I got this email earlier today, and what got me was the bottom line
>This is a promotional email from Uber B.V.
>Mr. Treublaan 7
>1097 DP Amsterdam
Why is an Amsterdam based company, emailing a canadian, about police violence in America? What does this have to do with me? It's not as if this is a problem in the Netherlands or Canada. There's no statistically significant disproportionate shooting of Black Canadians, or Black Dutch.

Sent in a support ticket. Let's see if they get back to me, and what their official reply is

[Flatulent]

but there is raaaaacccciiiissssmmmm how can you not understaaaaand

[Helios]

but there is raaaaacccciiiissssmmmm how can you not understaaaaand

I don't understand.
There's not a statistically disproportionate shooting of black Canadians, or black Dutch in the Netherlands.
So far they sent me a text message saying "We've responded to your inquiry", but haven't actually emailed me back

[Flatulent]

it’s literally just a publicity stunt what is there not to understand

there is global awareness about this blm stuff, Canadians and Dutch have been determined to care about this by Uber analysing their userbase’s google search results

for example I didnt get any such mail from Uber and I live in place where we simply don’t give a shit about American police strangling black people

there were also blm protests in Amsterdam and Canada so I suppose that matters as well

[Reeeee]

Wait did someone defend antifa because he doesn't like what some guy on youtube is posting?

..and you might get an idea why something like antifa is actually necessary.

Oookay.
Do.... do you not realize you live in the freedom and security of a first world country where you aren't shot for having access to drinking water and where first world "charities" aren't actively sponsoring waterbanditry and warlords in your daily life?
Fist world countries like US don't *need* violent and insurrectionist naysayer cults shitting on their fellow people cus of politics, what it needs is more highly trained doctors to give some Valium to those people so they calm the fuck down, go get an engineering degree and integrate into the rest of the normal society so space ships happen faster.

I'll go back to spaceman now, this shit has gone beyond drinking battery acid to get a high.

[Helios]

it’s literally just a publicity stunt what is there not to understand

there is global awareness about this blm stuff, Canadians and Dutch have been determined to care about this by Uber analysing their userbase’s google search results

for example I didnt get any such mail from Uber and I live in place where we simply don’t give a shit about American police strangling black people

there were also blm protests in Amsterdam and Canada so I suppose that matters as well

I'm just curious what they will say.
Will they outright say that it's just a publicity stunt? If they're being that cynical, I guess I could forward the email to Fox or The Toronto Sun.
Will they bring up protests in Toronto or Amsterdam? I got no clue

[Actionb]

Wait did someone defend antifa because he doesn't like what some guy on youtube is posting?
Fist world countries like US don't *need* violent and insurrectionist naysayer cults shitting on their fellow people cus of politics

No, it wasn't (only) because I didn't like what he was saying - I was using him as an example for how an initially centrist audience can be aligned towards the right by 'apparently liberal' content creators who are actually biased towards the right.
Put certain right-wing people in a somewhat favourable light, maybe do a few interviews, or simply talk about them while simultaneously portraying their opposition as bad. Everything done one-sided and incrementally, and the content creators may set the stage for content that is more right. Why this usually applies towards the right and not the left is explained in the video I have posted.
How much that particular youtuber actually means to contribute to this matters little and I don't really care about him personally. Again, just an example, because I think he does contribute (anti-MSM, anti-left video titles, Anti-Antifa, alt-light or alt-right figures like Peterson, McInnes).

"Oh you're overreacting!" - well, am I? Right wing has moved its 'recruitment' pretty much entirely to the internet. And it's paying off thanks to the alt-right pipeline:
https://www.tubefilter.com/2019/08/26/y ... niversity/
https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/f ... 10108/7920

Also Antifa isn't simply all about thugs and hooligans, but also about information gathering and monitoring. If you've only heard about the former, get a change of perspective.
If you can't see how all this applies to the current situation or what role Antifa might play in this:
white supremacist infiltration of us police forces
who are antifa (US)
And even if you don't care about what is happening in the US, this move to the right is happening in a lot of places in various degrees: Brazil, Hungary, Poland, Germany, UK, France, Turkey. Even the Dutch send their "Holland-Hitler" cosplayer over to take part in a Nazi demo last summer in the city where I live.

[Qustinnus]

Wait did someone defend antifa because he doesn't like what some guy on youtube is posting?
Fist world countries like US don't *need* violent and insurrectionist naysayer cults shitting on their fellow people cus of politics

No, it wasn't (only) because I didn't like what he was saying - I was using him as an example for how an initially centrist audience can be aligned towards the right by 'apparently liberal' content creators who are actually biased towards the right.
Put certain right-wing people in a somewhat favourable light, maybe do a few interviews, or simply talk about them while simultaneously portraying their opposition as bad. Everything done one-sided and incrementally, and the content creators may set the stage for content that is more right. Why this usually applies towards the right and not the left is explained in the video I have posted.
How much that particular youtuber actually means to contribute to this matters little and I don't really care about him personally. Again, just an example, because I think he does contribute (anti-MSM, anti-left video titles, Anti-Antifa, alt-light or alt-right figures like Peterson, McInnes).

"Oh you're overreacting!" - well, am I? Right wing has moved its 'recruitment' pretty much entirely to the internet. And it's paying off thanks to the alt-right pipeline:
https://www.tubefilter.com/2019/08/26/y ... niversity/
https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/f ... 10108/7920

Also Antifa isn't simply all about thugs and hooligans, but also about information gathering and monitoring. If you've only heard about the former, get a change of perspective.
If you can't see how all this applies to the current situation or what role Antifa might play in this:
white supremacist infiltration of us police forces
who are antifa (US)
And even if you don't care about what is happening in the US, this move to the right is happening in a lot of places in various degrees: Brazil, Hungary, Poland, Germany, UK, France, Turkey. Even the Dutch send their "Holland-Hitler" cosplayer over to take part in a Nazi demo last summer in the city where I live.

lol shut up thug

[XSI]

There's no statistically significant disproportionate shooting of Black Canadians, or Black Dutch.

We've had exactly one case in recent history of a cop shooting someone(an arab, not black) and it resulted in the cop getting slammed by everyone and removed from the force+charges
Unarmed suspect getting away on crowded train station? Shooting him is not the right choice and that cop found out what happens if you do

Also
>Someone in here unironically defending antifa
Extremist shits who would maim or kill anyone that disagreed with them without hesitation if they had any real power
There is no way to both defend them and not show yourself as an idiot or fool. They are opposed to fascism in the same way the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is democratic or a republic- It sounds good on paper even if it isn't true
Antifa makes fascism look good, every time they do anything people start to think "You know, if this is the anti-fascists, then maybe fascists are pretty decent people"

[Reeeee]

...

Antifa, for all they pretend to be, are nothing but cunts and faggots and have very little to do with freedom of information, and more to do with being a small minded politically corrupted sons of bitches who want to hurt others for their views. Freedom of information and dissemination of it happens elsewhere, (wikileaks, etc) not in garage meetings of politically biased fucktards who are screaming to each other they are right and apply to everything they see a political overcoat that they then disseminate as being the ONLY truth and view to hold going forward.

Being right aligned isn't wrong, it's just a different political view to hold. The moment you start to hurt others for it is the moment you belong in the trash bin.

Personally I hold the view that tyranny is the only "right" form of governance, however, i'm not going to go give anyone a brick to throw for that cause, nor try to make up faux political entities to prop it up, that's called being a fucking domestic terrorist and you should be executed for it behind the chemical shed and your family should be billed for the bullet, barrel wear and the gas for the excavator to bury you in a landfill. First world countries don't need reactionaries that escalate to violence, that's for fucking dark ages and failed third world countries trying to claw up to some standard of living and equality.
I will however fight you IRL for my political views being right if you are of sound mind and body, with weapons of your choosing to the last drop of blood or you giving up, if you absolutely have to prove me wrong.

[iksyp]

oh hey i just read through the thread nice to know that people want others to die because of how they generalize said group very cool guys thank you for solving racism o7

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion

the fuck am i even supposed to contribute at this point?

like, "oh wow rioters bad police bad" no shit, cops need to be held more accountable, and people need to focus on more peaceful methods, but i haven't seen a single person who doesn't hold this stance
and to anyone who says "PEACEFUL PROTESTING DOESN'T WORK!!! IT TOOK 3 DAYS OF RIOTS!!!" there weren't even 3 days of peaceful protests.

[Super Aggro Crag]

oh hey i just read through the thread nice to know that people want others to die because of how they generalize said group very cool guys thank you for solving racism o7

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion

the fuck am i even supposed to contribute at this point?

like, "oh wow rioters bad police bad" no shit, cops need to be held more accountable, and people need to focus on more peaceful methods, but i haven't seen a single person who doesn't hold this stance
and to anyone who says "PEACEFUL PROTESTING DOESN'T WORK!!! IT TOOK 3 DAYS OF RIOTS!!!" there weren't even 3 days of peaceful protests.

dont take it as a personal attack

[Actionb]

Antifa, for all they pretend to be, are nothing but cunts and faggots and have very little to do with freedom of information, and more to do with being a small minded politically corrupted sons of bitches who want to hurt others for their views.

>Someone in here unironically defending antifa
Extremist shits who would maim or kill anyone that disagreed with them without hesitation if they had any real power

Code: Select all

small-minded,/smɔːlˈmʌɪndɪd/, adjective
    having or showing rigid opinions or a narrow outlook; petty.

How rich of you to not even bother to inform yourself about the topic, but to instead insist on your (same old) viewpoint being the only right one, and to lump loose and varied groups of people together to be able to label all of them as whatever you want. By that logic, the US police is definitely far-right and extremist vegan lefties are justified in their assumptions that everyone else is a fascist. Case in point?
A lot of shit you raise is being addressed in the links I have given. So if you are not up for taking in new information, I'm not quite sure how I should get through to you to be able to talk about it. (yeh, I'm aware that tg isn't the right forum for that anyway, but might as well try because I love/hate y'all)

Spoiler:

Freedom of information and dissemination of it happens elsewhere, (wikileaks, etc) not in garage meetings of politically biased fucktards

You
don't
say
!

Being right aligned isn't wrong, it's just a different political view to hold.

I have never said that it was wrong. But if a right leaning person doesn't know how radicalization works these days, because they just don't give a crap about informing themselves and run face first into the pipeline, then it might be a problem.

The moment you start to hurt others for it is the moment you belong in the trash bin.

Right-wing extremists have been one of the largest and most consistent sources of domestic terror incidents in the United States for many years; they have murdered hundreds of people in this country over the last ten years alone. To date, there have not been any known antifa-related murders.

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgroun ... are-antifa

Personally I hold the view that tyranny is the only "right" form of governance, however, i'm not going to go give anyone a brick to throw for that cause, nor try to make up faux political entities to prop it up, that's called being a fucking domestic terrorist and you should be executed for it behind the chemical shed and your family should be billed for the bullet, barrel wear and the gas for the excavator to bury you in a landfill.

Hm, very liberal. Also: https://bsos.umd.edu/featured-content/p ... st-attacks

First world countries don't need reactionaries that escalate to violence, that's for fucking dark ages and failed third world countries trying to claw up to some standard of living and equality.

So, right wing extremists and reactionaries don't actually exist in 1st world countries? Interesting. You should let more people know about that!

I will however fight you IRL for my political views being right if you are of sound mind and body, with weapons of your choosing to the last drop of blood or you giving up, if you absolutely have to prove me wrong.

Antifa makes fascism look good, every time they do anything people start to think "You know, if this is the anti-fascists, then maybe fascists are pretty decent people

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

[Reeeee]

A lot of shit you raise is being addressed in the links I have given. I'm not quite sure how I should get through to you to be able to talk about it.

said links cemented my view as antifa being domestic terrorists. I didn't know before, now i do. You made my view what it was. I'm not going to give you the time of day if you think there's a discussion to be had about them NOT being such.

and fucking again;
First world countries don't *need* reactionaries. Just because antifa are such doesn't make it laudable or correct, it just makes people in it dumber for it.

You aren't having a discussion, you are copy-pasting links and memes at me. Any discussion you want to have stops dead on the first link you paste and makes you look like a daffy duck with the memes. You don't have opinions to discuss, you have copy-paste in your brain. Discussion to be had is with the originators of those links, not with the guy who pastes em.

[Jack7D1]

Help

[ABearInTheWoods]

antifa in a nutshell: