CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

[Sheodir]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Cryo is basically the only way to cure toxin damage or all-around high amounts of damage without consequences or without waiting a long time.

Oh, you don't play the game, or know nothing about current medbay. Got it.

Bonus meme:

Spoiler:

He's right though. For toxins around 60+, or massive damage pre-surgery upgrades; cryo is the most effective method of treatment. It's also the most braindead for a non-doctor to use, which is good for lowpop/shitter medic rounds.

Dee I gotta second what others have said and wonder how long has it been since you played Medbay in any real capacity. Cryo has become a bit of a meme for a reason - if anything it serves very little purpose right now. Other methods of treatment are much, much faster and more efficient which leads to using cryo being the hallmark of a completely new or inexperienced Doctor. Cryo hasn't been the "most efficient" method of high damage fixing since at least 2016 when I believe Cryoxadone got hard nerfed.

[Muncher21]

nothing can change my mind that this is fucking stupid, i'd rather not spend 15 minutes being revived/reviving somebody because their neck split from their head, also noticed that if somebody went the extra mile and got rid of medical protolathe and defibs through ??? means that basically means permadeath unless botany isnt retarded
i do not like this change

As the saying goes, "You can't logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into".

He's right though. For toxins around 60+, or massive damage pre-surgery upgrades; cryo is the most effective method of treatment. It's also the most braindead for a non-doctor to use, which is good for lowpop/shitter medic rounds.

Syriniver for toxin, for any other damage type, sutures or regenerative mesh work faster. If they're dead you have to do tend wounds anyways, cryo won't help them. The only use for cryo is if you are a lazy doctor, or have a massive queue of patients.

[peoplearestrange]

I have a question:

Is "Original" cloning still possible? (i.e. brain swapping with monkey humans and then debriefing)?

[Cobby]

Yes

[peoplearestrange]

Right so cloning DOES still exist. Just needs more steps.

The point im making is why not making cloning pods MORE complicated, make it so cloning someone requires effort? A thing akin to genetics or something?

[Shadowflame909]

Right so cloning DOES still exist. Just needs more steps.

The point im making is why not making cloning pods MORE complicated, make it so cloning someone requires effort? A thing akin to genetics or something?

We currently have the never used due to the tediousness of getting them exact: roundstart DNA number.

What if you had to match all those digits to clone someone.

Would take forever, would probably need some security to avoid sabotage making all your effort null to correct said 12 digits.

[Arathian]

Right so cloning DOES still exist. Just needs more steps.

The point im making is why not making cloning pods MORE complicated, make it so cloning someone requires effort? A thing akin to genetics or something?

At the very least, this would fit with empty cloning. Someone's body is way too fucked? print an empty, brainless clone of them, shove in brain, defib, tadaa.

Fits with the new direction, keeps cloning code in and doesn't require raiding science to get monkey cubes. You still need to surgery someone, you still need to defib someone, you can fix completely destroyed bodies however.

I honestly don't understand why we have to get rid of the cloning machine entirely. Did it call someone's mothers nasty names? Did it ERP a felinid?

[Sheodir]

Right so cloning DOES still exist. Just needs more steps.

The point im making is why not making cloning pods MORE complicated, make it so cloning someone requires effort? A thing akin to genetics or something?

At the very least, this would fit with empty cloning. Someone's body is way too fucked? print an empty, brainless clone of them, shove in brain, defib, tadaa.

Fits with the new direction, keeps cloning code in and doesn't require raiding science to get monkey cubes. You still need to surgery someone, you still need to defib someone, you can fix completely destroyed bodies however.

I honestly don't understand why we have to get rid of the cloning machine entirely. Did it call someone's mothers nasty names? Did it ERP a felinid?

Best way I can describe the thought process is that these changes are made to try and make specific things happen (MDs play more with medicine and surgery and make revivals more of an involved actual medical process) and having the machine still be around in its current form would negate that in favor of brainswaps and what not.

I can see the machine making a comeback in some form after adaption goes through, but it'd have to take a different shape and accomodate a lot of the feedback given thus far - having a cost for cloning, having it be more about brainswaps, etc

[skoglol]

Ive been playing with the idea of a machine that prints a torso you can base a new body off of. Some assembly required.

But in most cases you already have that. Its the guy someone dragged in thats missing parts. The machine is pointless.

[Qbopper]

I haven't been keeping up with the cloning stuff - did defibs get a buff to help compensate? I remember a while back they got nerfed into the ground, but my medbay knowledge is lacking these days

[Sheodir]

Ive been playing with the idea of a machine that prints a torso you can base a new body off of. Some assembly required.

But in most cases you already have that. Its the guy someone dragged in thats missing parts. The machine is pointless.

Instead of a full machine I've been considering switching off a bit of the excess extra medbay space (see: Meta's absurdly large morgue) with a freezer. It'd start with a few organs and maybe a few spare body parts. Could have a few torsos, too.

[zxaber]

Played AI last night, watched a scientist get himself killed in an accidental toxins fire. CMO tried to bring him back, repairing his burns and brute damage, and replacing all his organs with cybernetics, but couldn't get him alive again. Eventually, after like 30 minutes of trying, the CMO gave up and went SSD. It was really all quite sad.

It seems that non-cloning fixes for heavy damage isn't quite well known yet. I've seen dead bodies that are most likely quite fixable go ignored by doctors or moved to the morgue because they either don't know how to fix them, or don't want to go through the effort.

[Sheodir]

Played AI last night, watched a scientist get himself killed in an accidental toxins fire. CMO tried to bring him back, repairing his burns and brute damage, and replacing all his organs with cybernetics, but couldn't get him alive again. Eventually, after like 30 minutes of trying, the CMO gave up and went SSD. It was really all quite sad.

It seems that non-cloning fixes for heavy damage isn't quite well known yet. I've seen dead bodies that are most likely quite fixable go ignored by doctors or moved to the morgue because they either don't know how to fix them, or don't want to go through the effort.

As said, the documentation really is lacking. I'll try and update the page for MDs today reflecting the changes to cloning, even if I may be overstepping myself a bit given it's a test merge. As PM I'm giving doctors a lot of shit if they just "give up" on corpses, but Manuel is Manuel and I'm aware the bar of patience is lessened player-wise in other servers.

[Domitius]

After seeing gameplay without cloning it has really changed the dynamic in medbay and people are always busy getting work done.

I love the change to the Delta map where there is a large room with just beds where doctors can quietly work without being interrupted and would love an area like that on Metastation. On Meta after the first couple bodies are brought in there is just no more room to work.

[Cobby]

I haven't been keeping up with the cloning stuff - did defibs get a buff to help compensate? I remember a while back they got nerfed into the ground, but my medbay knowledge is lacking these days

kinda, there's no arbitrary ToD requirement for defib revival, it's purely based on heart damage.

[Mickyan]

Some of the defib messages are unclear/misleading, they need to be more direct because nobody likes having to code dive to figure out what each fluff message means exactly. I'd go as far as adding a short sentence suggesting a treatment such as "heart transplant required", "brain surgery required" etc.

One egregious example is brain_death which gives the message "Resuscitation failed - Patient's brain damaged beyond point of no return. Further attempts futile." - This state cannot be cured by brain surgery, only by splashing the brain itself with mannitol.
Meanwhile, brain damage gives this message "Resuscitation failed - Patient's brain tissue is damaged making recovery of patient impossible via defibrillator. Further attempts futile."


Special mention to the line "Further attempts futile." which is shared with suiciding patients. It needs to be exceedingly obvious whether or not a patient is a lost cause

[Qbopper]

I haven't been keeping up with the cloning stuff - did defibs get a buff to help compensate? I remember a while back they got nerfed into the ground, but my medbay knowledge is lacking these days

kinda, there's no arbitrary ToD requirement for defib revival, it's purely based on heart damage.

based, ty

[PKPenguin321]

Some of the defib messages are unclear/misleading, they need to be more direct because nobody likes having to code dive to figure out what each fluff message means exactly. I'd go as far as adding a short sentence suggesting a treatment such as "heart transplant required", "brain surgery required" etc.

One egregious example is brain_death which gives the message "Resuscitation failed - Patient's brain damaged beyond point of no return. Further attempts futile." - This state cannot be cured by brain surgery, only by splashing the brain itself with mannitol.
Meanwhile, brain damage gives this message "Resuscitation failed - Patient's brain tissue is damaged making recovery of patient impossible via defibrillator. Further attempts futile."


Special mention to the line "Further attempts futile." which is shared with suiciding patients. It needs to be exceedingly obvious whether or not a patient is a lost cause

This would not be hard at all to change, just literally editing a few strings. Good idea and you should do it

[Mickyan]

I would but I am not up to speed with a lot of the recent medbay changes, I've been playing paramedic just so I can't be blamed for not knowing some things since it's technically not my job

As a matter of fact I just got back from a round where three of us had to take turns to try and figure out the correct way to apply mannitol to a dead brain because it's inconsistent, confusing and should just be removed in favor of brain surgery

[Super Aggro Crag]

I was in that round with Mickyan, we didnt save a single person because everyone who died just ghosted or went to play on another server, despite me dehusking and replacing their every organ. He'll back me up on that.

[Ayy Lemoh]

I would but I am not up to speed with a lot of the recent medbay changes, I've been playing paramedic just so I can't be blamed for not knowing some things since it's technically not my job

As a matter of fact I just got back from a round where three of us had to take turns to try and figure out the correct way to apply mannitol to a dead brain because it's inconsistent, confusing and should just be removed in favor of brain surgery

Pouring mannitol on brain is harder than doing literal brain surgery?

Is this why people like baymed?

[Super Aggro Crag]

It wouldn't let me pour it on the brain.

[skoglol]

Ill fix it, dont worry.

As for mannitol on brain, its only supposed to be done pre MMI. There is a brain surgery for brains that are still in a body. Actually brains are a bit of a mess, braindeath and brain organ damage should be the same thing, so Ill fix that too.

[Kryson]

nothing can change my mind that this is fucking stupid, i'd rather not spend 15 minutes being revived/reviving somebody because their neck split from their head, also noticed that if somebody went the extra mile and got rid of medical protolathe and defibs through ??? means that basically means permadeath unless botany isnt retarded
i do not like this change

If someone has sabotaged the protolathe, the spare board and all defibs, you can still do revival surgery with a stun baton / prod.

I haven't been keeping up with the cloning stuff - did defibs get a buff to help compensate? I remember a while back they got nerfed into the ground, but my medbay knowledge is lacking these days

kinda, there's no arbitrary ToD requirement for defib revival, it's purely based on heart damage.

Are we sure about this? I thought this was the case, but when i tried to defib a formaldehyde'd corpse it didn't work and i had to do revival. Someone told me there was a 15~ minute timer in addition to the heart damage check. If this is the case, i think this is fine as it puts a dampener on the most degenerate head swapping strategies(carrying a headless formaldehyde'd body with ligament hook in a bluespace body bag).

Ive been playing with the idea of a machine that prints a torso you can base a new body off of. Some assembly required.

But in most cases you already have that. Its the guy someone dragged in thats missing parts. The machine is pointless.

The machine is doubly pointless due to the low value of monkey cubes. In a world where monkey cubes were hard to get this machine would make more sense.

Ideally i would want to make monkey cubes a valuable resource, in the current meta i just buy monkey cubes from botany.

The biomass cost could be adjusted, but this doesn't solve the problem since xenobio shits out hundreds of cubes.

[skoglol]

I haven't been keeping up with the cloning stuff - did defibs get a buff to help compensate? I remember a while back they got nerfed into the ground, but my medbay knowledge is lacking these days

kinda, there's no arbitrary ToD requirement for defib revival, it's purely based on heart damage.

Are we sure about this? I thought this was the case, but when i tried to defib a formaldehyde'd corpse it didn't work and i had to do revival. Someone told me there was a 15~ minute timer in addition to the heart damage check. If this is the case, i think this is fine as it puts a dampener on the most degenerate head swapping strategies(carrying a headless formaldehyde'd body with ligament hook in a bluespace body bag).

ToD check was removed in https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/48715. If you are having issues with it currently, make an issue report.

The PR has been updated with a few fixes and changes:
- Cloning disks and scanners rebranded
- Defibs now give you better feedback on faliure and forces ghosts back into the body if they are not DNR'd.
- Brains can again be accidentally attacked, some wrong indentation detected. Also gives feedback.
- Brain death is gone, now just use organ damage since it already did the same thing. This means pouring mannitol and brain surgery should always work.
- All the vital organ repair surgeries now has a repeatable main step, saving a few steps for those completely gone organs.
- Dying now gives you a message informing you about DNR.

Still on my list of things I think we need is better missing organ feedback from health scanners, as well as some medbay remapping to allow for better patient handling. I want treatment rooms back, both to avoid the two stasis beds in every medbay be quite as easy a bomb target and because with however many doctor slots we really should have workstations for all of them. Some more private facilities could also allow for more shenanigans like brainwashing.

[Kryson]

- All the vital organ repair surgeries now has a repeatable main step, saving a few steps for those completely gone organs.

Wasn't the point of lobectomy and coronary bypass that they are not repeatable? They directly set organ damage to 60 and prevent you from repeating the operation.

hepatectomy is powercreeped compared to the two former, setting damage to 10 and allows the surgery to be repeated. It should probably be brought in line since it pretty much invalidates liver transplants.

[Angust]

I'll try and update the page for MDs today reflecting the changes to cloning, even if I may be overstepping myself a bit given it's a test merge.

Please keep medical advice on the Guide to Medicine wiki page only, instead of the medical doctor job page. Else the doctor page gets duplicate info to (not) maintain.

[Sheodir]

I'll try and update the page for MDs today reflecting the changes to cloning, even if I may be overstepping myself a bit given it's a test merge.

Please keep medical advice on the Guide to Medicine wiki page only, instead of the medical doctor job page. Else the doctor page gets duplicate info to (not) maintain.

That makes more sense, thanks.

Still on my list of things I think we need is better missing organ feedback from health scanners, as well as some medbay remapping to allow for better patient handling. I want treatment rooms back, both to avoid the two stasis beds in every medbay be quite as easy a bomb target and because with however many doctor slots we really should have workstations for all of them. Some more private facilities could also allow for more shenanigans like brainwashing.

Most maps have space for this now I suppose. I'll be glad to be rid of Meta Medbay's ridiculous Morgue.

[zxaber]

I don't mean to be a doomer, but something that has been bugging me is the worry that the massive revival time is going to lead to more players either taking a ghost role or else just quiting out once they die. In turn, this might lead to a "meta" of sorts where doctors would end up less likely to spend a lot of time fixing heavily-damaged bodies if it tends to end up with catatonics. This was an issue of sorts already with cloning, but that wasn't a big deal when you could just push the catatonic person out of the way and queue up another dead person.

Is it possible we could get some sort of "brain scanner"? A device that, when used on any body with the brain (and perhaps also on brains directly), it would pop up an alert to the ghost requesting a response? Like a "tell me if you're still here before I spend 15 minutes reviving you" device?

[Grazyn]

I don't mean to be a doomer, but something that has been bugging me is the worry that the massive revival time is going to lead to more players either taking a ghost role or else just quiting out once they die. In turn, this might lead to a "meta" of sorts where doctors would end up less likely to spend a lot of time fixing heavily-damaged bodies if it tends to end up with catatonics. This was an issue of sorts already with cloning, but that wasn't a big deal when you could just push the catatonic person out of the way and queue up another dead person.

Is it possible we could get some sort of "brain scanner"? A device that, when used on any body with the brain (and perhaps also on brains directly), it would pop up an alert to the ghost requesting a response? Like a "tell me if you're still here before I spend 15 minutes reviving you" device?

It's not like MD players have a lot of things to do. They're either fixing the living, which takes precedence over the dead anyway, or reviving the dead. The alternative is doing nothing. Actually, since reviving is now an active process instead of press-and-wait, it's more likely that bored MDs will be doing that compared to old cloning.

[Arathian]

It's not like MD players have a lot of things to do. They're either fixing the living, which takes precedence over the dead anyway, or reviving the dead. The alternative is doing nothing. Actually, since reviving is now an active process instead of press-and-wait, it's more likely that bored MDs will be doing that compared to old cloning.

The alternative is not having anyone sign up as a doctor.

[Sheodir]

[...]

Is it possible we could get some sort of "brain scanner"? A device that, when used on any body with the brain (and perhaps also on brains directly), it would pop up an alert to the ghost requesting a response? Like a "tell me if you're still here before I spend 15 minutes reviving you" device?

The brain scanner is a good idea. Just a way to visually tell your ghost 'hey I'm gonna revive you now'. Showing a yes/no prompt to the ghost (like 'do you want to be revived') would be pretty neat a way to get them to decide if they want to go through the process or not.

The alternative is not having anyone sign up as a doctor.

Except Medbay mains seem mostly supportive of this change and I've seen Medbay more staffed to the brim than usual recently. The main issue imo is that a lot of said good-with-Cobbychem Medbay mains are currently on Manuel, providing a bit of a lopsided perspective to the whole thing.

[Grazyn]

It's not like MD players have a lot of things to do. They're either fixing the living, which takes precedence over the dead anyway, or reviving the dead. The alternative is doing nothing. Actually, since reviving is now an active process instead of press-and-wait, it's more likely that bored MDs will be doing that compared to old cloning.

The alternative is not having anyone sign up as a doctor.

If they are not signing up because of this it means they also find healing to be boring, which is a whole other issue. Usually if there are corpses there are also injured people to tend to.

[peoplearestrange]

What is the current "old" cloning scanner now used for?

Also honestly theres a lot of stuff this PR brings up which is really true. Death is too cheap, and having the more finality of death brings about a lot of other interesting consequences. Im keen to see how it will change the general meta of play.

[Arathian]

The conclusion of "doctors are frustrated doing a sisyphean task" is not "they will do it, they have nothing better to do", it's they will stop being doctors or quit all together.

This is simple logic.

Except Medbay mains seem mostly supportive of this change and I've seen Medbay more staffed to the brim than usual recently.

Source because I have seen the opposite.

[skoglol]

- All the vital organ repair surgeries now has a repeatable main step, saving a few steps for those completely gone organs.

Wasn't the point of lobectomy and coronary bypass that they are not repeatable? They directly set organ damage to 60 and prevent you from repeating the operation.

hepatectomy is powercreeped compared to the two former, setting damage to 10 and allows the surgery to be repeated. It should probably be brought in line since it pretty much invalidates liver transplants.

You're right, I misread code. Heart, lungs, liver ones set a value which is fine so reverted repeatable on those. Brain surgery now has a repeatable step and give you some feedback once it finishes to indicate you might need to do it again.

[Super Aggro Crag]

The conclusion of "doctors are frustrated doing a sisyphean task" is not "they will do it, they have nothing better to do", it's they will stop being doctors or quit all together.

This is simple logic.

Except Medbay mains seem mostly supportive of this change and I've seen Medbay more staffed to the brim than usual recently.

Source because I have seen the opposite.

I agree with this guy

[Sheodir]

Source because I have seen the opposite.

I agree with this guy

Not to turn this into "he said she said" but my source is basically this thread and the Github PR. People who said "as a CMO player" or "as a Medbay player" tended to be supportive, I haven't yet seen a Medbay main that doesn't seem to be (amidst the circle of people who play and talk w me) please to some degree, and most players aggressively attacking the decision either by their own admission or by their lacking Medbay knowledge seem not to play Medbay at all.

Anecdotal as shit and burden of proof etc so feel free to ignore it if it bothers you. But I sure haven't seen less players on Medbay recently, and when I logged into Terry it was as full as Manuel's has consistently been.

[Qbopper]

I can't comment on the current state of affairs, but medical is my favorite role, and the only thing I've seen about it through the years that's stayed the same: people who don't play medbay and have no interest playing medbay making sweeping statements about the medical system and claiming that no one likes X change or Y proposal

[Super Aggro Crag]

Medbay is my most often played role and I'm getting real sick of people saying "I disagree with you therefore your opinion is anecdotal and invalid because I saw another guy said he smelled a medkit once and loves the changes."

This is a feedback thread, people are providing feedback, just because its contrary to your circlejerk doesn't mean its invalid.

[Sheodir]

snop

This is a feedback thread, people are providing feedback, just because its contrary to your circlejerk doesn't mean its invalid.

And we're sharing our experiences. If you say you're a Medbay main and dislike it that's as valid, but then you can discourse why you think it's bad in light of your perspective as a Medbay main rather than going "no u" and being frustrated nobody is agreeing with you. The behavior of the anti-cloning side overall has had more arguments and responses, aside from oranges who was as deflective as ever.

I want this to be an actual discussion thread not a "no u" "NO U" thread

[Ziiro]

I'm not sure why this thread is open and you're still going through the rigmarole of testmerging and pretending this is still being decided. The powers that be have already decided. Just get it over with.

[skoglol]

I opened a PR to adress issues brought up in this thread just hours ago, what?

[MMMiracles]

I mean it was pretty obvious from the get-go the main purpose of the feedback thread is to point out issues that'd arise from the lack of cloning so steps can be taken to amend them before making the final push. They're gutting cloning but they're still making sure revival and general patient care is still reasonable without the crutch cloning was.

[Ziiro]

I opened a PR to adress issues brought up in this thread just hours ago, what?

"Feedback" != "Adjustments"

To put better:
Feedback would imply that if you had enough people with good arguments saying "Hey, this is a pretty bad idea, don't do this" you might reverse course. That is clearly not what is going to happen here. Instead it's "This is going to happen, we need to know what to adjust to make it less bad when it does happen"

[Super Aggro Crag]

snop

This is a feedback thread, people are providing feedback, just because its contrary to your circlejerk doesn't mean its invalid.

And we're sharing our experiences. If you say you're a Medbay main and dislike it that's as valid, but then you can discourse why you think it's bad in light of your perspective as a Medbay main rather than going "no u" and being frustrated nobody is agreeing with you. The behavior of the anti-cloning side overall has had more arguments and responses, aside from oranges who was as deflective as ever.

I want this to be an actual discussion thread not a "no u" "NO U" thread

frustrated with the fact that people are just instantly ghosting now on cloning free servers instead of giving medical team an opportunity to do their job to the point that medbay is literally just a dumping ground for soulless bodies and my only job is lugging bodies to the horribly located morgue on Delta in between being shoved around by people trying to force their way into medical storage to steal shit instead of letting me heal them and people overdosing the few patients that consent to wound tending surgery BECUZ CHEMZ R KEWL and then having to inject them with anti toxins and babysit them as their organs explode.

[Ziiro]

frustrated with the fact that people are just instantly ghosting now on cloning free servers instead of giving medical team an opportunity to do their job to the point that medbay is literally just a dumping ground for soulless bodies

behold, the future meta. Servers with only a handfull of people left alive who are paranoid and evasive, bored out of their mind because everyone who tries to socialize or isn't robust gets murdered and leaves instantly.

At least we don't have to worry about redtexting because of cloning, though!

[Super Aggro Crag]

frustrated with the fact that people are just instantly ghosting now on cloning free servers instead of giving medical team an opportunity to do their job to the point that medbay is literally just a dumping ground for soulless bodies

behold, the future meta. Servers with only a handfull of people left alive who are paranoid and evasive, bored out of their mind because everyone who tries to socialize or isn't robust gets murdered and leaves instantly.

At least we don't have to worry about redtexting because of cloning, though!

i agree with this guy

[skoglol]

Well believe it or not, there hasnt in my opinion been any good arguments for non-removal that cant either be solved by rather small code fixes or will solve themselves as players get used to playing medbay without cloning. People ghosting instead of waiting around is part of that transition, and it happened a lot before too but since the cloner dont write forum posts you never heard about them.

The entire point of opening the PR and moving to testmerge is to test the waters and see if we are ready for it from a code perspective. And while there are still things that could benefit from ironing out I do believe we are.

[Sheodir]

frustrated with the fact that people are just instantly ghosting now on cloning free servers instead of giving medical team an opportunity to do their job to the point that medbay is literally just a dumping ground for soulless bodies and my only job is lugging bodies to the horribly located morgue on Delta in between being shoved around by people trying to force their way into medical storage to steal shit instead of letting me heal them and people overdosing the few patients that consent to wound tending surgery BECUZ CHEMZ R KEWL and then having to inject them with anti toxins and babysit them as their organs explode.

Gotta admit my bias because I mostly play Manuel, where this hasn't been my experience in Medbay. Is this mostly on Event Hall or Terry or do we play in different times?

I think it's telling though that the worst aspect is *people* giving up on doctors healing them, not the difficulty of revival itself. I do think revival is as viable as it's always been but that people are just more pessimistic on this adaptation period. Organ damage could afford to be tweaked a bit though, I think everyone and their mom has shouted at Cobby about that.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Im only on manuel as well Sheodir