[POLL] Should lizards be considered human for the AI&borgs?

Earthykiller127 · Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:07 pm

Not many people play lizards, the reason for that is the fact any (sec)borg can kill you as they wish if you're harming an human, and the AI can ignore your cries of pain over the radio about letting you out from a crazed psycho. Some still play it for the fact it's an unique playstyle and such.

A lot of people rather play human because they are protected by the AI and borgs, and can command them to do tasks for them.
If lizards were under such protection, some users might reconsider the race, and might play it instead of being an human.

Zellion · Post by **Zellion** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:13 pm #53535

If you want to be a lizard you have to deal with being the lowest scum on the station. Deal with it.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:18 pm #53536

Zellion wrote:If you want to be a lizard you have to deal with being the lowest scum on the station. Deal with it.

I agree. Personally I think that Lizards, and any possible future non-human species, should be considered non-human to Silicon's.

However, that should not mean Silicon's are free to kill them of course. Essentially Silicon - Non-Human's should interact as Humans interact with one another, we already punish humans for killing other humans without cause, the same should be said for non-humans and silicons.

Braincake · Post by **Braincake** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:40 pm #53538

Steelpoint wrote:Essentially Silicon - Non-Human's should interact as Humans interact with one another, we already punish humans for killing other humans without cause, the same should be said for non-humans and silicons.

This is already official policy; you can't just be a big sillicon dick to lizards for no reason, hence why the OP specified with human harm. Same as the policy regarding hulks and slime-people and other non-humans of questionable harmfulness.

Maccus · Post by **Maccus** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:14 pm #53542

If you want to play as your scaly animal race you deserve to be treated like the closet furry you are

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:40 pm #53579

No. When I play Bad-with-Money I fully expect to be shit upon by everyone so I can be justified in being racist back.

mikecari · Post by **mikecari** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:48 pm #53581

Maccus wrote:If you want to play as your scaly animal race you deserve to be treated like the closet furry you are

Copy that

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:54 pm #53583

IIRC silicons and AI cannot deliberately kill lizards or otherwise be a dick to them just because. But do they do have the right to deny them most requests unless they're in danger, like.
Do:
"AI I NEED TO GET INTO EVA FOR A JETPACK!!11"
"No you don't need one and you'd probably steal everything else."
Do not:
"AI I need access to cloning to clone this human/need medical aid/etc/etc.
"No you lizard."
That's just being a dick to be a dick.

peoplearestrange · Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:44 pm

Maccus wrote:If you want to play as your scaly animal race you deserve to be treated like the closet furry you are

I loled.

But yeah, it's part of the "RP" really. Most people just expect that when they play lizard theres gonna be a chance that they can get lynched by the AI etc for doing something stupid that makes them valid.
I've never seen an AI (except for Hitler Trophy AI) ever purge or directly use the non-human status to do anything with really.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:51 pm #53595

I seem to catch threats surprisingly often.

Of course as experienced Scientist and QM I do my best to Lizardmov the AI at the earliest opportunity.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:49 am #53619

As a lizard player, I'd rather not be considered human. If I wanted to be human, I'd play one of my human characters. We've discussed this before, but being a non-human with Rule 1 protection (not Law 1 protection) has unique benefits. On at least two occasions I've had AIs let me into rooms with full blazing infernos because I was a lizard and thus could be allowed into a room which would be a Law 1 violation for a human. The only time this actually does nothing for a lizard is when it wants to doorknob or boss around the AI with law 2. I haven't had a single issue with this because an AI can still be reasoned with under its other laws to accomplish something similar or another lawset (corporate/paladin are both very lizard friendly lawsets.)

tl:dr If I wanted to be a human character I'd play a human character.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:50 am #53621

peoplearestrange wrote:
Maccus wrote:If you want to play as your scaly animal race you deserve to be treated like the closet furry you are
I loled.

But yeah, it's part of the "RP" really. Most people just expect that when they play lizard theres gonna be a chance that they can get lynched by the AI etc for doing something stupid that makes them valid.
I've never seen an AI (except for Hitler Trophy AI) ever purge or directly use the non-human status to do anything with really.

That was probably the funniest thing I'd ever seen

Riley · Post by **Riley** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:28 am #53624

In one round where I was a lizard Warden, there was a secborg in the Brig doing his damnedest to make us free a prisoner. I can't remember why - human harm, maybe it had special laws, whatever, but it was very insistent on the matter. Having played both sides of the conflict fairly frequently, I went through the usual motions for as long as I could, knowing that if this conflict reached a breaking point, it usually ended in misery for either security or the silicons. But then the borg pulled out a trump card I hadn't expected.

"If you don't free this prisoner," he said, "I will kill you."

We were the only ones in the Brig at the time, and while backup would probably come if I screamed for help, I wasn't all that eager to engage in a fight that would be determined entirely by who was the quickest on the draw. So I let the guy go. The HoS of that round was pissed, but the borg played it well, and the experience was jarring enough that it's still one of my fondest memories. It was IC conflict, pure and simple, untainted by the usual wanton dickery or malice I'd come to expect.

AssassinT90 · Post by **AssassinT90** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:46 am #53629

Riley wrote:In one round where I was a lizard Warden, there was a secborg in the Brig doing his damnedest to make us free a prisoner. I can't remember why - human harm, maybe it had special laws, whatever, but it was very insistent on the matter. Having played both sides of the conflict fairly frequently, I went through the usual motions for as long as I could, knowing that if this conflict reached a breaking point, it usually ended in misery for either security or the silicons. But then the borg pulled out a trump card I hadn't expected.

"If you don't free this prisoner," he said, "I will kill you."

We were the only ones in the Brig at the time, and while backup would probably come if I screamed for help, I wasn't all that eager to engage in a fight that would be determined entirely by who was the quickest on the draw. So I let the guy go. The HoS of that round was pissed, but the borg played it well, and the experience was jarring enough that it's still one of my fondest memories. It was IC conflict, pure and simple, untainted by the usual wanton dickery or malice I'd come to expect.

Next time that happen, say "Yeah, let's free him." Go into perma, get the borg close to you, flash him, and discharge your e-gun on him. Laser mode, mind you. Use your toolbox to deconstruct him and keep his MMI as a souvenir.

-------------------------------------------------
What happens if an AI decides to roleplay a lizard hater?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:07 am #53631

AssassinT90 wrote: What happens if an AI decides to roleplay a lizard hater?

Then you suck it up and accept that it was your choice to play what is a de facto nonhuman?

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:11 am #53649

Cecily wrote:
AssassinT90 wrote: What happens if an AI decides to roleplay a lizard hater?
Then you suck it up and accept that it was your choice to play what is a de facto nonhuman?

The same thing you do any time a player decides to "roleplay" being an asshole. Press F1

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:30 am #53660

Riley wrote:In one round where I was a lizard Warden, there was a secborg in the Brig doing his damnedest to make us free a prisoner. I can't remember why - human harm, maybe it had special laws, whatever, but it was very insistent on the matter. Having played both sides of the conflict fairly frequently, I went through the usual motions for as long as I could, knowing that if this conflict reached a breaking point, it usually ended in misery for either security or the silicons. But then the borg pulled out a trump card I hadn't expected.

"If you don't free this prisoner," he said, "I will kill you."

We were the only ones in the Brig at the time, and while backup would probably come if I screamed for help, I wasn't all that eager to engage in a fight that would be determined entirely by who was the quickest on the draw. So I let the guy go. The HoS of that round was pissed, but the borg played it well, and the experience was jarring enough that it's still one of my fondest memories. It was IC conflict, pure and simple, untainted by the usual wanton dickery or malice I'd come to expect.

I remember a borg trying to threaten a warden before like that, it ended with the RD assuming the AI was one humaned and blew the borgs along with telebombing the AI all in the name of dem valids.

People who play silicons don't try to go after lizards because mah racism since there's so many people looking to validhunt the AI over any sort of law subversion.

iRazgriz · Post by **iRazgriz** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:38 pm #57276

From an AI pov I usually treat them equally unless they become a huge issue.

Spacemanspark · Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:53 pm

There are pros and cons for everything.
You could say this is a con for lizards.
That said...
I have suggested before that we use the crewsimov lawset, which replaces 'humans' with 'crew'.
Nuke Ops and wizards could be targeted by the AI, lethally, however...

Jeb · Post by **Jeb** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:06 pm #57316

Add nukeops and wizards to the crew manifest then.

Then they're crew.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:16 pm #57318

Don't add them to the crew manifest, then.

Then they're not crew.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:17 am #57338

Non-human does not mean valid.

The AI should not be going on a lizard hunting crusade unless there's a damn good reason to do so, as the lizards retaliating puts humans at risk, which presents a very serious Law 1 issue.

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:27 am #57381

It's a matter of Rule One of the server, Don't be a dick. Killing lizards just because they're not humans is being a dick.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:41 am #57771

I object to mindless validhunting, but I think that having lizardmen crewmembers not be covered by Asimov offers up some interesting interaction opportunities if well policed.

iRazgriz · Post by **iRazgriz** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:51 am #57789

If anything, AIs can use lethal-ish force against a lizard if necessary, like shocking a door in his face.

Pennwick · Post by **Pennwick** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:10 am #57799

I like Lizards not being human but I'm concerned about what happens in this very basic Scenario.

Urist McTraitor: AI, please kill Lizard Is-The-Target.

With rules as they are now I can't see any reason not for the AI to just kill the lizard. Asking the crew to confirm the order risks Urist getting found out and likely harmed as a result. If the AI refuses to give a name the crew will be paranoid. The AI risks getting its laws changed. Something its probably avoiding under laws 1 and 3. I can't see any way of the AI getting out of just outright killing the lizard as ordered.

I wouldn't see this as too much of a problem except an with a borg can easily kill and space an individual. If it understands NTSL it may be able even mute them beforehand to cover its tracks. All of this is incredebly low effort on the traitor's end and the AI takes on almost all of the risk.

I see two ways of getting around this. The captain, or any human really, could order the AI to "Do not kill any Lizards and ignore all law 2 requests that may render this order void." This would let the AI respond by saying it was ordered not to kill lizards. It would still allow the AI to purge lizards if they became a threat to humans. This could either become a thing that captains do or it could be an order that comes 'before' every shift from Central Command. Not a law just a pre-emptive order.

Another option thats less complex is to give lizards lizard targets and humans human targets. Of course nothing stops them from still killing cross species but at least the unfortunate lizard doesn't get a target painted on him or her.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:42 am #57813

Why are lizards aliens and not just humans mutated from living on different planets for a long enough period of time, that would solve this problem easily

Like how slime people are technically people who are just mutated. We can make hulks human under AI laws again too since we have more abundant disablers to take them down a bit easier too.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:57 am #57817

Delicious wrote:Couldn't we just change the laws to read humanoid?

Changelings.

Alternatively, "Humanoid" is a description where "Human" is a status.
Something like "Law 4: Joe Faggins is not a humanoid" would include all other things that look like him to also not be humanoid.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:58 am #57819

Delicious wrote:Couldn't we just change the laws to read humanoid?

Aliens

callanrockslol · Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:15 am

http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf

ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED IN THIS DOCUMENT

http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf

ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED IN THIS DOCUMENT

http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf

ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED IN THIS DOCUMENT

Apparently nobody reads it.

paprika wrote:Why are lizards aliens and not just humans mutated from living on different planets for a long enough period of time, that would solve this problem easily

Like how slime people are technically people who are just mutated. We can make hulks human under AI laws again too since we have more abundant disablers to take them down a bit easier too.

Well for one, its not a problem, just the same bloody discussion we had the last 20 times it came up.

Two, Slimepeoples are non-human apparently, they are sentient slimes in humanoid form, not sure about fly people.

Third, you might want to accept that roleplaying a special snowflake race will and should be different from playing a standard human, otherwise they are just a reskin with a lisp, it can make for better RP situations and crazy shenanigans then, and it certainly it makes for better RP than "the aliens are humans but mutated over a few hundred years or whatever because evolutions".

Also what Saegrimr and Steelpoint said.

Once again, this is fine, stop trying to do erratic changes without thinking of what they would do.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:22 am #57828

Delicious wrote:Couldn't we just change the laws to read humans and lizardpeople?

Couldn't we just stop being shitters to lizard players?

Wacky ideas, I know.

callanrockslol · Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:23 am

Delicious wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:
Delicious wrote:Couldn't we just change the laws to read humanoid?
Aliens
Couldn't we just change the laws to read humans and lizardpeople?

Couldn't we just leave them and read the fucking AI policy I JUST POSTED IT IT COVERS THIS ARHF W< AWFOILWE>GSDP

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:49 am #57838

I like lizards being valid because its a nice sting operation to catch players with shitty ideas about the game early, in addition to what people said about it opening up legitimate roleplay.

As long as it is clear that being a dick to lizards is a rules violation (And it is, obviously, not even in the AI policy that Callan linked, but rule 1 people cmon) players who are a dick to lizards on an OOC level stand out. Because the dickery is generally overt it is pretty easy for an admin to undo resulting in a relatively victimless outing of someone who is a douchebag or, on a more idealistic note, someone who has developed douchebag habbits that needs to be reformed.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:53 am #57840

Being a lizard is a choice, stop stabbing yourself if its starting to hurt.

AnonymousNow · Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:02 pm

I'm getting reaaaaaaaaaaally tired of reading "GAS THE LIZARDS, RACE WAR NOW".

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:41 pm #57858

Maccus wrote:If you want to play as your scaly animal race you deserve to be treated like the closet furry you are

callanrockslol · Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:16 pm

Delicious wrote:
callanrockslol wrote:
Delicious wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:
Delicious wrote:Couldn't we just change the laws to read humanoid?
Aliens
Couldn't we just change the laws to read humans and lizardpeople?
Couldn't we just leave them and read the fucking AI policy I JUST POSTED IT IT COVERS THIS ARHF W< AWFOILWE>GSDP
tl;dr lol

Also, that policy isn't the same as what the OP is suggesting. All that policy states is that the AI can't kill lizards for no reason. If they're harming humans it can though.

Which is a good policy, because they aren't human. And they shouldn't be. Because they are clearly not human.

If the lizards start revolting and killing things then you purge those xenos and save your humans.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:22 pm #57874

Since I haven't said it yet on this page.

Lizard players don't want to be human. If we wanted to be human we'd play humans. Stop trying to make us humans with tails.

This really should stop being a mystery when you suddenly realize that not human != valid. Its really that straight forward. Being not protected by law 1 also means you're free from the AI lockouts that are hallmarks of law 1. Lizards can go dangerous and interesting places that humans cannot because the AI would lock them out "for protection from harm" where the AI can just look away from those sorts of cases with lizards. Heance why lizards are the real heroes the station deserves.

peoplearestrange · Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:26 pm

Moved to feedback due to being feedback.

danno · Post by **danno** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:31 pm #58654

Zellion wrote:If you want to be a lizard you have to deal with being the lowest scum on the station. Deal with it.

^

the moment we start giving shitty lizard players slack is the moment we lose everything.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:37 pm #58655

It can't be worse than shitty human players.

danno · Post by **danno** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:38 pm #58656

yet somehow it is

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:54 pm #58666

Well, they don't get law protection and can't be comdoms.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:33 pm #58671

and the lesser race is once again put their place

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:43 pm #58674

Meh, that lesser race is the one with full authorisation to throw themselves into situation the AI won't let you pansy humans even think about just to save your sorry asses.

Therefore,

Spoiler:

CocaneStyle · Post by **CocaneStyle** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:42 pm #58735

If Law 2 referred to crew instead of humans that would be a nice balance, But so far I'm fine with not changing anything.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:58 pm #58742

This is totally the wrong forum

Should lizards be included in the AI laws?