Indifferent Coders Griefing Codebase

[The_Silver_Nuke]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/47866

Actionninja makes good PR's. Unironically I mean that, they put out good stuff on the regular. HOWEVER when presented with an opposing argument as to why a PR shouldn't get merged they just do NOT give a fuck and will not give you equivalent reciprocation. Honestly this is infuriating. Controversial PR's shouldn't get merged, and especially if the opposition wants to prove a point yet the author of a PR refuses to explain why it is good for the code, then proceeds to taunt with short one or two word quips.

[actioninja]

What the hell has happened to TG

[Tarchonvaagh]

I hate the new ids

[Vekter]

Here's some context - he got upset that actioninja wanted to remove spinstuns on borgs, so he got into it with him on the PR. Action wasn't listening to him so he joined the coderbus discord to bitch at us about it, everyone told him off and said it was his problem not ours.

Also apparently he's banned from the tgstation discord for being a pedo.

[Tarchonvaagh]

Damn

[The_Silver_Nuke]

Oh please. I most certainly am not and additionally you fucking trolls, all I want is to make sure !!GAMERS!! are heard by the coders. Like, is that actually to hard to ask? No. Apparently it is however. Legitimately, I offered you genuine feedback and I put thought into what I was saying. No I just get ignored.

[The_Silver_Nuke]

Then, when you run out of arguments as to why you are pushing a shit PR you bring up some bullcrap from months and months ago on a completely unrelated appeal. Awesome. You are just awesome.

[Shadowflame909]

Welcome to my mine

We are mining frustration

[actioninja]

I'll give a somewhat serious response.

Just because you have feedback doesn't mean we have to take it into account. Just because you have an argument with a point doesn't mean it's a point that will be agreed with.
I didn't feel the need to do a direct epic reddit style point by point breakdown because in the end it came down to a difference of opinion, and I didn't want to waste my time with high effort responses when even if I laid everything out in front of you you still wouldn't like it because you fundamentally believe that silicons need this second stun.

[ninjanomnom]

You're free to give arguments for why you think a change is good or bad, but you are not owed a response. Especially when the arguments start repeating.

Maintainers are all highly trusted and their sense for gameplay changes plays a part in their selection. The only controversial pr as far as the merge process is concerned is one in which maintainers disagree on what should be done with it.

[Sandshark808]

Removing spinstuns is also a really good PR and it shouldn't be difficult to see why. Now that you can officially bind emotes to a key (people did before, but it was with ahk which is arguably allowed but not intended/supported mechanically) it's easy to just grab and spin people in a second. There have to be changes to accommodate that.

[The_Silver_Nuke]

I actually genuinely appreciate the serious response ninja. All I wanted was to have a conversation about it. Like, okay yes it I do play Silicon frequently, and I think I do have a good foundation to have opinions. And yes I do like having stuff be in favor of my favorite role. But before that even I like a logical, balanced, unbiased approach to coding and making changes. I don't like unbalanced content that makes things unfun, and from my point of view I felt that it was a change that made it unbalanced and unfun. All I wanted was a legitimate response, not snippy witty remarks that attack the person behind the comment.

I get that maintainers are supposed to be trusted individuals, but when they have a tendency of showing a "fuck you I do what I want" attitude it makes that trust have a weak foundation and crumble completely. Honestly the bare minimum should be that coders treat people like individuals who actually share their passion for the game, instead of a "oh my god you're trolling" attitude.

[PKPenguin321]

Hoes mad

[Kryson]

Maintainers are all highly trusted and their sense for gameplay changes plays a part in their selection.

Personally, i think the maintainers do have a better grasp of game design than the average player and get it right more than they get it wrong.

But they certainly have their blind spots as well, and their decisions should be questioned and criticised if you feel that is warranted.

For for example, the merging of an acid with toxpwr 6, totally ridiculous considering that fluorosulfuric was already strong at 2 toxpwr.

Here is a couple of my other recent favourites maintainer bruh moments:

oranges oblivious to the existence of oculine, inacusate, silibinin and polypyrylium oligomers.

Cobby thinking choral takes at least 20 cycles to put someone to sleep.

I don't understand how someone one who has ever used chloral(or read toxin_reagents.dm) could think it takes 40 whole seconds to put someone to sleep with it.

cobbychloral20.PNG (11.01 KiB) Viewed 10131 times

[confused rock]

Oranges has been a dipshit lately but I see what pr this thread is about and laugh my ass off at what is effectively a patched exploit

[CPTANT]

This topic would have been a lot stronger if the trigger, borg buckle chainstunning getting removed was actually a bad change.

[The_Silver_Nuke]

It definitely is a bad change. Honestly I play Silicon a LOT, it basically accounts for half of my playtime, and the amount of people I was able to save was just innumerable thanks to this ability. The next time someone comes up with a pair of sunglasses and an egun and starts shooting up medical I won't be able to stop them at all. Literally all you need to counter borgs now is sunglasses. How is that not unbalanced?

[Tlaltecuhtli]

spinning people was never meant to be a tool for borgs to stunlock and its not the borg job to stunlock a murderboner in medical and weld him in a locker (i saw this happen), they have magic wi fi to bolt person in place and wait for people whose job is to stunlock murderboners (sec or vigilantes) to do it or send beepsky

[The_Silver_Nuke]

What do you mean it isn't their job? If someone is murdering as Asimov you are OBLIGATED to stop any human harm however you can. Basically what borgs have been reduced to is a very loud punching bag.

[Lazengann]

It definitely is a bad change. Honestly I play Silicon a LOT, it basically accounts for half of my playtime, and the amount of people I was able to save was just innumerable thanks to this ability. The next time someone comes up with a pair of sunglasses and an egun and starts shooting up medical I won't be able to stop them at all. Literally all you need to counter borgs now is sunglasses. How is that not unbalanced?

Good

Cyborg is a punishment role and not only should borgs be weaker, escalation rules should be relaxed against them like other ghost roles

[The_Silver_Nuke]

Wh- punishment role? Well that's just depressing. Besides, I rarely see people force borged as a punishment. Most people just get slaughtered and forgotten about, thus is the way of TG. Just about all the borgs I play with play silicon voluntarily, and simply because ghosts can inhabit posi's does not mean that escalation should be reduced against them. Keep in mind that they are players too, and just because they are bound to an AI doesn't mean they don't care about how the round goes.

[Lazengann]

Wh- punishment role? Well that's just depressing. Besides, I rarely see people force borged as a punishment. Most people just get slaughtered and forgotten about, thus is the way of TG. Just about all the borgs I play with play silicon voluntarily, and simply because ghosts can inhabit posi's does not mean that escalation should be reduced against them. Keep in mind that they are players too, and just because they are bound to an AI doesn't mean they don't care about how the round goes.

Escalation should be relaxed against them because cyborgs play as "laws optional." If a cyborg is getting in the way, being annoying or fucking things up and you tell them to stop you're lucky if you can reach a 10% success rate. Cyborgs have the invincible defense of "oops I didn't read the order in time" and there's no way to prove otherwise
If you play cyborg regularly you're guilty of it too

[The_Silver_Nuke]

Hm, I rarely run into that issue on Sybil. I bring the hammer down hard on any griefing borgs, and admins are good about monitoring it too. I can't say about other servers however. But it's the rare case where I run into a "laws optional" borg thankfully, but when they do happen it's resolved swiftly.

[wesoda25]

hahahha suck a candy cane idiot

[zxaber]

Of all the possible nerfs that people want to bring to borgs, this one is rather inconsequential and really shouldn't be the hill to die on. Yeah, rushing and buckling people only to spin them into a wall for the stun was funny, (and I do hold that it was easy to defend against once you were aware), but it also felt like unintended gameplay.

[oranges]

oranges oblivious to the existence of oculine, inacusate, silibinin and polypyrylium oligomers.

orangesorgans.PNG

Im not oblivious, but making it clear I don't like them as opposed to leaving people in the dark is the right thing to do.

I'd merge a pr removing any or all of them and replacing them with surgeries.

[Cobby]

Cobby thinking choral takes at least 20 cycles to put someone to sleep.

I don't understand how someone one who has ever used chloral(or read toxin_reagents.dm) could think it takes 40 whole seconds to put someone to sleep with it.

cobbychloral20.PNG

I had misread (below) btw and then corrected myself
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... ts.dm#L311

[deedubya]

It definitely is a bad change. Honestly I play Silicon a LOT, it basically accounts for half of my playtime, and the amount of people I was able to save was just innumerable thanks to this ability. The next time someone comes up with a pair of sunglasses and an egun and starts shooting up medical I won't be able to stop them at all. Literally all you need to counter borgs now is sunglasses. How is that not unbalanced?

Good

Cyborg is a punishment role and not only should borgs be weaker, escalation rules should be relaxed against them like other ghost roles

This has to be the most smoothbrained take I've read in weeks. It's not a ghost role. It's not even a punishment role. Hell, it's a fucking roundstart role, same as all the rest.

That being said, the PR the OP is complaining about is a perfectly valid PR. It patches an overly abused exploit. If you want to actively prevent harm, pick the module specifically designed for doing so. You have a fucking synthpax hypospray, you can slow down gunfire in a field around you, and confuse people with your loud ass harmalarm. Stop whining about how ineffective you are at breaking up fights as a janiborg when that's not what that module was designed to do. It's like whining about how a medical doctor has no access to engineering to stop a delamination. No shit, that's not your fucking job. Stop pretending it is.

[Akrilla]

It definitely is a bad change. Honestly I play Silicon a LOT, it basically accounts for half of my playtime, and the amount of people I was able to save was just innumerable thanks to this ability. The next time someone comes up with a pair of sunglasses and an egun and starts shooting up medical I won't be able to stop them at all. Literally all you need to counter borgs now is sunglasses. How is that not unbalanced?

Good

Cyborg is a punishment role and not only should borgs be weaker, escalation rules should be relaxed against them like other ghost roles

admin thinking cyborg is punishment role cringing rn

[Qbmax32]

we stopped silvernuke from shitting up the discord but we couldn’t stop them from shitting up the forums

[Cobby]

cyborg is a masochist role (by default) and/or a punishment role.

[carshalash]

cyborg is a masochist role (by default) and/or a punishment role.

It is a masochist role, but trying to say it's a punishment role is dumb.

[Dr_bee]

cyborg is a masochist role (by default) and/or a punishment role.

It is a masochist role, but trying to say it's a punishment role is dumb.

Also that line of thinking is what keeps borgs from being fun to play. cant give borgs anything that might be fun or they might stop being a "punishment role"

[Cobby]

cyborg is a masochist role (by default) and/or a punishment role.

It is a masochist role, but trying to say it's a punishment role is dumb.

It used to be a popular option to borg non-murderboning traitors if caught. kinda died off since a lot of people now play like they're trying to be the next Lexia, and security just finds it easier to kill people off now that they can't abuse the validhunt module.

Also that line of thinking is what keeps borgs from being fun to play. cant give borgs anything that might be fun or they might stop being a "punishment role"

Like what? The most recent sillyfeatures seem like they are always about making users Big Brother or pseudo-sec because of Asimov.

[carshalash]

cyborg is a masochist role (by default) and/or a punishment role.

It is a masochist role, but trying to say it's a punishment role is dumb.

It used to be a popular option to borg non-murderboning traitors if caught. kinda died off since a lot of people now play like they're trying to be the next Lexia, and security just finds it easier to kill people off now that they can't abuse the validhunt module.

Also that line of thinking is what keeps borgs from being fun to play. cant give borgs anything that might be fun or they might stop being a "punishment role"

Like what? The most recent sillyfeatures seem like they are always about making users Big Brother or pseudo-sec because of Asimov.

Well actually, it's also great to do to murderboners. That way you get to taunt them about the fact they can't do harmies and have to help people instead of just getting balids.

Also, henshin borgs. Bring them back.

[4dplanner]

My favourite part is this:

That's a strawman and you know it.

Maybe, but it doesn't make what I am saying any less correct.

[Cobby]

This isn't feedback about a feature and more of a "i dont like what this maintainer did".

If you have an issue with coder conduct, you can take it up the maintainer who merged it. If you don't like that answer, you can take it up to a headcoder.

If you don't like either of those, sorry you sol.