Cobbychem: A Separate Thread

[Anonmare]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Please for the love of God, increase the healing rate on tend wounds, it is agonisingly slow even in ideal conditions

Ideal conditions would be experimental tend wounds with alien surgery tools, which I can assure you is quite fast.

I refer to the basic tend wounds with normal tools, which is what you'll be doing 90% of the time because operating tables+computers are at a premium with space, and willingless to make more, being the limiting factor.

The basic tend wounds surgery only heals 5 brute per successful interaction (on unclothed patients, clothed patients only heal a measly 2.5. Dead people heal even LESS so it's often not even good for getting people in defib range.) which is far too low in my honest opinion. Bruise packs and ointment heal more than that and don't take so much faffing about so of course nobody wants to willingly submit to the surgery.

To be perfectly honest, I have half a mind to remove the healing loss from clothing and up the heals to 10. It should be competitive with bruise packs and ointments, especially if we're removing the latter.

[Calomel]

Snip

In one of the rounds I played recently as doctor, our captain got shot to hell. He was brought to medical and I decided to do the healing/defib
because cloner was kind of busy. Captain had 200 Brute damage; i declothed, put on stasis bed, started bruise surgery.

I took easily 10 minutes getting it down to less than 100. Now, after this I tried defibbing, and it didn't work: His heart was too damaged.
I had to wait for another perosn to pass me a replacement heart from science, move him to the other surgery area that had all the tools,
replace heart, defib again. After this, blood was too low and he was constantly suffocating; had to go grab an A- blood pack and use the IV.
(The clothes were on the way so getting the drag on the captain to get teh IV working was a disaster). After blood was restored, finally cap
was good again. I took half an hour to heal one guy from death. He was, understandably, VERY angry.

The method of surgery is way too slow. Had I been more careful, I would have done the blood earlier, but I needed him on the stasis
bed because of brute damage. i couldn't do all the steps I wanted at once, and I am glad that some other guy was able to go to sci
to get another heart, if not cap would have been there for far longer. My decision to avoid cloning was, in any respect, a bad one,
and not only that, but it clogged medical with people waiting. Have you all been in a similar situation?

[NecromancerAnne]

Tend wounds is good when upgraded but it's a pain to get operating computers into areas where you want to do surgery. I feel like a smart idea might be for medical to construct up hallway operating tables and computers to utilize if you want to quickly treat people.

I'm actually pretty happy even with baseline tend wounds. It's really good for recovering bodies for defibbing.

[deedubya]

Snip

In one of the rounds I played recently as doctor, our captain got shot to hell. He was brought to medical and I decided to do the healing/defib
because cloner was kind of busy. Captain had 200 Brute damage; i declothed, put on stasis bed, started bruise surgery.

I took easily 10 minutes getting it down to less than 100. Now, after this I tried defibbing, and it didn't work: His heart was too damaged.
I had to wait for another perosn to pass me a replacement heart from science, move him to the other surgery area that had all the tools,
replace heart, defib again. After this, blood was too low and he was constantly suffocating; had to go grab an A- blood pack and use the IV.
(The clothes were on the way so getting the drag on the captain to get teh IV working was a disaster). After blood was restored, finally cap
was good again. I took half an hour to heal one guy from death. He was, understandably, VERY angry.

The method of surgery is way too slow. Had I been more careful, I would have done the blood earlier, but I needed him on the stasis
bed because of brute damage. i couldn't do all the steps I wanted at once, and I am glad that some other guy was able to go to sci
to get another heart, if not cap would have been there for far longer. My decision to avoid cloning was, in any respect, a bad one,
and not only that, but it clogged medical with people waiting. Have you all been in a similar situation?

This isn't a failure of the system, this is you failing in triage. You didn't have upgraded/experimental TW and/or tools, didn't have replacement organs on hand for the clearly damaged heart(medical scanner tells you the state of organs), then proceeded to try to fix his body on a stasis bed rather than a surgical table. At that point, the most effective method of resuscitation would have been to use the cloner or botany pod, given that you were underequipped to deal with the issue normally.

Sometimes you can't solve every problem the way you want to, that's just tough shit and part of this game.

[Cobby]

This is off topic but I want to talk about it. Another thing I feel that medbay suffers from is the dominance of the patch. Patches are just the best means of getting chemicals into somebody, no ifs or buts. Patches aren't blocked by clothing (like pills and syringes are) and can hold more units than bottles and pills. In addition, in the time it takes to apply a patch, a syringe can only inject 5u while a patch dumps its load like a pill does.
I'm probably gonna make more enemies but I feel each application method should be different and distinct enough to make using them worthwhile.

Back when we had trekchem there was a distinct difference between in-blood and on-skin applications of drugs, where some had to be applied on skin with a medical sprayer to avoid ODing people. It's almost like the chem changes weren't very well thought out.

name the chems. Stypic/SS used patches, charcoal used syringe.

I don't think I added any patch-specific chems but I did keep thia (syriniver) which requires injection.

[Cobby]

TW (((recently))) got buffed, when you say it's low do you mean post that buff?

[deedubya]

This is off topic but I want to talk about it. Another thing I feel that medbay suffers from is the dominance of the patch. Patches are just the best means of getting chemicals into somebody, no ifs or buts. Patches aren't blocked by clothing (like pills and syringes are) and can hold more units than bottles and pills. In addition, in the time it takes to apply a patch, a syringe can only inject 5u while a patch dumps its load like a pill does.
I'm probably gonna make more enemies but I feel each application method should be different and distinct enough to make using them worthwhile.

Back when we had trekchem there was a distinct difference between in-blood and on-skin applications of drugs, where some had to be applied on skin with a medical sprayer to avoid ODing people. It's almost like the chem changes weren't very well thought out.

name the chems. Stypic/SS used patches, charcoal used syringe.

I don't think I added any patch-specific chems but I did keep thia (syriniver) which requires injection.

I seem to recall charcoal also working in pill form, and syptic/SS working as pills/injections as well for healing over time instead of the instant patch heal.

[Dr_bee]

I seem to recall charcoal also working in pill form, and syptic/SS working as pills/injections as well for healing over time instead of the instant patch heal.

You recall wrong for syptic and silver sulfide. pills and injections would cause toxin damage and would disgust the patient.

Charcoal was also changed before its removal to only be administer-able orally, which was a good change. injecting it would turn it into harmless and useless carbon.

Bring back old charcoal. multiver is not fun to use, and the pills of it you get standard only heal a whopping 2 toxin damage. Charcoals downside was that it purged all chems. If you reduce the toxin healing to .5 or 1 a tick it will be a good overall treatment but not something you want to use for major damage.

[Sandshark808]

I seem to recall charcoal also working in pill form, and syptic/SS working as pills/injections as well for healing over time instead of the instant patch heal.

You recall wrong for syptic and silver sulfide. pills and injections would cause toxin damage and would disgust the patient.

Charcoal was also changed before its removal to only be administer-able orally, which was a good change. injecting it would turn it into harmless and useless carbon.

Bring back old charcoal. multiver is not fun to use, and the pills of it you get standard only heal a whopping 2 toxin damage. Charcoals downside was that it purged all chems. If you reduce the toxin healing to .5 or 1 a tick it will be a good overall treatment but not something you want to use for major damage.

Just give it a low OD threshold where it makes you puke and purge your chems.

[Dr_bee]

I seem to recall charcoal also working in pill form, and syptic/SS working as pills/injections as well for healing over time instead of the instant patch heal.

You recall wrong for syptic and silver sulfide. pills and injections would cause toxin damage and would disgust the patient.

Charcoal was also changed before its removal to only be administer-able orally, which was a good change. injecting it would turn it into harmless and useless carbon.

Bring back old charcoal. multiver is not fun to use, and the pills of it you get standard only heal a whopping 2 toxin damage. Charcoals downside was that it purged all chems. If you reduce the toxin healing to .5 or 1 a tick it will be a good overall treatment but not something you want to use for major damage.

Just give it a low OD threshold where it makes you puke and purge your chems.

charcoal not having an OD was a problem as well. considering you could just shove 100 units of it in you and be basically immune to poisons. capping the amount of damage it can heal would be a good change as well. making activated charcoal the method for healing toxin damage under 20, for minor exposure to plasma and the like.

[SkeletalElite]

Can we get an increase in the amount of actual healing chem instead gran-whateverthefucktherestofthespaghettinameis. When I use a medkit feels like I have to use like every patch to heal my damage because theres like 2 units of actual healing chem in it.

[oranges]

medkits are for healing small bruises and cuts mate

[Anonmare]

I've used the C2 chems to an extensive degree and here's my thoughts:

Libital is fine, the organ damage is manageable, especially if properly diluted.
Helbital is too incredibly niche to be useful, it only heals brute but it only does so effectively if the patient has non-brute damage, and if they don't it deals toxins. I've had my doctors use it and they agree, it's useless in all but the most situational of situations, there's almost never a time where someone has both brute and enough of the other kinds of damage without being dead to make its use worthwhile.
Aiuri, see Libital
Granibitaluriis mostly fine but it has way too many steps to make for its effect. Would rather just dilute medicine in water than use it as my dilutent.
Multiver is kind of trash, nobody uses it if they have a choice. It's self-purging, which means you need to use an entire bottle to get any worthwhile effect. I know you're supposed to use it with other medicines but why would I waste more medicine on unnecessary treatments? Remove its purging, both self and others, keep its benefit from combining treatments and it'd see a lot more use, especially with cryo where that is the default goal.
Fiziver is much better than Multiver but the OD threshold makes it tricky to use in a pure state. Diluted, it's much more manageable, no complaints with it.
Syriniver is a very powerful anti-toxin, even better than pentetic, but trying to use it outside of a diluted IV is a fool's errand. Would see more use if medbay had some IV bags roundstart as the secret of plastic making seems to be lost to time.
Tirimol is something I only saw used once, surpisingly. best combined with a stimulant like epinephrine or the likes as a dilutant to counteract the stamina damage. Poor mid-combat use, great stabilizer for critical condition.
Convermol is something that desperately needs to be diluted in the O2 kit syringes. A full syringe for someone with severe O2 loss inflicts a major amount of tox damage. Would recommend replacing them, and mediborg's chem, with Tirimol as these syringes are potentially fatally toxic to a high O2 loss sufferer.

Trophazole is fine, decent for low brute by itself. Best used as pills for the tide to munch one between mouthful of donk pocket. Not recommended for doctor use.
Rhigoxane is good, but its additional beneficial effect will see rare use as vapour applicators aren't widespread and without research potentially non-existent. Recommend tiny hand sprayers to be available at roundstart so that it's additional bonus sees the light of day outside burn kits.
Instabitaluri is an odd duck. It's useful certainly but I never see it used because of that toxin damage conversion and the low prevelance of effective anti-toxin treatment is a downer.

Minor requests: A grinder to medbay backroom. I often want to use the medical gels but I have to mess around with water dissolving and time consumingly adding pills to the mix, having a straight grinder to put all the pills in to pour the mix into the gels would save time.

[oranges]

re the grinder, the chem room being mae into a an apocathery for med would fix that anyway wouldn't it (ref time greens changes)

[Dr_bee]

Instabitaluri doesnt heal enough to be worth a damn outside of body repair. Its toxin conversion needs to be at most 33% of the damage, its current 66% is too much.

[Taraiph]

I'm not sure this new medbay is worth the effort of learning at this point. Just port baymed over. It'd be less of a hassle than trying to get the fucking janitor to stop for two minutes so I can use unupgraded surgery because AI wanted a shell.

[oranges]

go play on bay then

[Timonk]

go play on bay then

Can you stop shitposting and give good feedback

[Sandshark808]

go play on bay then

Can you stop shitposting and give good feedback

You already know the answer to that question.

[oranges]

go play on bay then

Can you stop shitposting and give good feedback

man holding up mirror.tiff

[Timonk]

go play on bay then

Can you stop shitposting and give good feedback

man holding up mirror.tiff

Gay sex

[Reyn]

go play on bay then

Can you stop shitposting and give good feedback

man holding up mirror.tiff

Gay sex

Although the peanut policy likely does not apply here, this is not relevant to the discussion

On another note, I don't have too many complaints about cobychem so far. Then again, I haven't been one to do the real meta chems so... eh.

Back off topic, Cobby, here's a copypasta I found while browsing round logs out of boredom

Reece1995/(Sergei Bobadev) "Long ago in a distant land, I, COBBY!, the banhappy coder of Darkness, unleashed an unspeakably evil code! But a foolish coder wielding a magic fix stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in time and flung him into the future, where my evil code is law! Now the fool seeks to return to the past, and undo the future that is COBBY!"

[Lazengann]

Mapping complaint, but I would like to have a stasis bed in a place where fifteen mouth breathers don't push you away to inject your patient with industrial amounts of chemicals.

[Dr_bee]

Mapping complaint, but I would like to have a stasis bed in a place where fifteen mouth breathers don't push you away to inject your patient with industrial amounts of chemicals.

Patient treatment rooms being brought back would be pretty nice, considering how long treatment takes now. Just put the stasis beds in them and they will see actual use.

[Irad]

The biggest problem is that medbay gets completely overrun and unable to function if the station crisis is slightly more than random greytiders hitting people with toolboxes, and that depending on random people who might be antags is always a bad thing. (from a player perspective). You dont know if the doc is going to help you, if he knows what he's doing, or if he's gonna throw you into a turned off cryopod.

[Dr_bee]

The biggest problem is that medbay gets completely overrun and unable to function if the station crisis is slightly more than random greytiders hitting people with toolboxes, and that depending on random people who might be antags is always a bad thing. (from a player perspective). You dont know if the doc is going to help you, if he knows what he's doing, or if he's gonna throw you into a turned off cryopod.

Thats kind of the point of the medical changes. It makes getting hurt actually a fucking problem instead of a minor issue that can be solved by meme pill use.

I do admit medbay security is a bit lacking with the increased importance of doctors but that isnt really related to cobbychem and probably should be its own discussion thread.

[Sandshark808]

The biggest problem is that medbay gets completely overrun and unable to function if the station crisis is slightly more than random greytiders hitting people with toolboxes, and that depending on random people who might be antags is always a bad thing. (from a player perspective). You dont know if the doc is going to help you, if he knows what he's doing, or if he's gonna throw you into a turned off cryopod.

Thats kind of the point of the medical changes. It makes getting hurt actually a fucking problem instead of a minor issue that can be solved by meme pill use.

I do admit medbay security is a bit lacking with the increased importance of doctors but that isnt really related to cobbychem and probably should be its own discussion thread.

The problem with this is that hurting/killing people is piss easy, and gets easier with almost every patch.

[Lazengann]

the game has gotten far less lethal

[oranges]

two types of player

[RobustAndRun]

If the coderbus is dead-set on going this way, we should expand the food/drink and botany systems to be much better than they are for minor and moderate injuries.

Get toolboxed on the head a few too many times? Don't bother doctors and deal with residual chem damage, smoke a fat doink and eat some donk pockets before a nap.
Tox damage from inhaling plasma? Do a juice cleanse.
Heart organ damage from shitty chems? Drink a bottle of red wine.
We /alternativemedicine/ station now.

I think we should also.consider accessible street drugs which should act as temporary fixes for health issues that can no longer be fixed easily without surgery. Can't feel the pain from your mangled leg after smoking pain pills.

[MisterPerson]

The idea is to move away from chemical healing, not add even more chemicals.

[Sandshark808]

The idea is to move away from chemical healing, not add even more chemicals.

Well you can't surgery someone's toxin damage away.

[deedubya]

The idea is to move away from chemical healing, not add even more chemicals.

The point being raised here is that you shouldn't have to deal with surgery or harmful chems for minor injuries or light tox damage. White kits and donk pockets are currently functioning as minor remedies, but I can't help but wonder when they'll wind up on the chopping block to make way for more surgical solutions.

[Cobby]

white kits aren't being changed drastically in their current iteration, if anything maybe a health cap so you have to use surgery for extensive damage, but that falls out of the scope of "minor damage" complaints.

I hate omnihealers though so yes, i'm still interested in toning them down.

[Lazengann]

Ever thought about letting people do CPR on dead bodies to stave off the organ decay?

[Cobby]

not really, is organ decay an issue?

[deedubya]

Ever thought about letting people do CPR on dead bodies to stave off the organ decay?

What would this accomplish? You can't do CPR on the move, so it wouldn't work for transporting a stiff to medbay. Once you're in medbay, stasis beds halt all organ decay, so sitting there doing CPR would be pointless.

[Kryson]

doesn't formaldehyde prevent organ decay?

[Lazengann]

Often when bodies come to me in medbay, their heart has decayed just enough to require a bypass to defib, they've been dragged there and lost a ton of blood, and they still have the damage that caused the death. I find that the combination of surgeries needed and the need to use up the blood supply makes it hard to justify not tossing them in the cloner, as it takes a comparable amount of time and doesn't leave them with damaged organs.

Letting people do CPR to prevent organ damage would encourage bystanders to simply do CPR where they lay while medbay staff comes to pick them up. This would solve the blood loss from dragging and allow players to spend less time as a ghost watching medical treatments. A decent amount of people I try to revive end up catatonic before I finish, presumably because they're annoyed by how long things take. That could just be the weird hours that I play though.

[Mickyan]

If the long term is to have manual revival be at least somewhat comparable to cloning we need organ decay (or at the very least heart decay) to be slower, you cannot keep up with organ decay unless you're using a stasis bed and putting someone back together even in the best of cases takes a considerable amount of time.

This makes triage a nightmare because you only have two stasis beds, once the bodies start piling up anyone that's not on a stasis bed is constantly increasing the time it's going to take to revive them. You end up in situations where you're forced to prioritize the recently deceased while the people who have been dead a while will take too much time to bring back and are not worth prioritizing. Needless to say this sucks for the people that have to watch their corpse rot on the floor of medbay while new patients get treated right away.

On that note the medHUD icon that used to tell if someone could be defibbed is nigh-useless now since it will linger long after most of the patient's organs have turned into mush

[Anonmare]

Presently working on a bunch of organ/internal damage healers. Ideally to supplement and supplant the existing organ healers. Presently, the following has been planned out but is subject to change.

Name: Haematol
Intended application: Intavenous injection
Positive effects: Accelerated blood regeneration
Side effects: Brute trauma, rare blood vomiting
Overdose effects: Heart damage, lung damage, chance of mycocardial infarction

Name: Intestinol
Intended application: Ingest
Positive effects: Repairs stomach damage
Side effects: Vomiting, weakness
Overdose effects: Liver damage, toxin damage

Name: Pulmonol
Intended application: Inhale? If too niche, any will do
Positive effects: Lung repair
Side effects: Coughing, blurry vision
Overdose effects: Coughing fits (stun), shortness of breath, lung damage (undos healing)

Name: Heparol
Intended application: Any
Positive effects: Liver repair
Side effects: Hunger, drowsiness
Overdose effects: Accumlative stamina damage, liver damage (undos healing)

[Timonk]

Why do we need side effects that kick any positive effects to the curb

[Cobby]

Organ damage should be healed nigh-exclusively through surgery.

I might could be sold on a corazone-like reagent though.

[Cobby]

As for blood loss, players really need to police this by getting butthurt at people not using lockers/beds/etc. Pulling is already a negative with the slow, shouldn't be too hard.

[Timonk]

So, you need surgery to heal this then you need this med to heal toxin then you need that med to heal eye damage then you need that other med for brute then you need another med for burn...

Why do we need an endless cycle of pill chugging and infusions

[LifeReign]

Since it seems like there's a bit of a desire to increase cooperation between botany and medbay, why not give botanists access to the medical comm channel to give the crew the impression that the departments are supposed to work together? A good botanist should already know how to produce medicine, and the job title does convey a sense of education (Botanist as opposed to gardener). Then all you need to do is give chemistry something that botany wants late-game (How about a single-use chem that makes a planted seed mature faster/instantly? Or maybe lock a specific trait behind a chem?) and then you can put late-game medical stuff behind botany plants.

Basic round progression could look like: Botany gets starter mutagen/saltpetre to start ramping up hydro production from chemistry-> Botany brings plant-locked chems to chemistry to receive advanced botany chems -> Round ends because of some shitter.

Right now, the worst part of botany is the time to ramp up, since rounds can be horrifically short. There's a lot of goodies that botany can make for chemistry, but not much that chemistry can do for botany beyond the initial crucial ramp-up period. Also, mass-production of rarer chems generally requires a minimum of two maturation periods, which can last for up to 8 minutes each: the first one to acquire the plant and wait for it to bloom, and the second wait period for the modified plant to be ready for harvest (which can't necessarily be lowered by extraction to a faster maturing plant). 16 minutes is a long time, easily half the length of a round, and you don't really want the chems to be ready as the shuttle is arriving. The only issue would be making it so that botanists can't easily make it themselves, so maybe this would have to wait until a more advanced chem-creation process is introduced.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

i think libtard/ yuri organ damage should be upped a bit i never had seen any organ damage effect from those

[Calomel]

Organ damge is a problem when resucitating, because a damaged heart can cause problems with defibrillation,
and a lot of methods of healing are closed to you if the person is dead, forcing you to send them to cloning because
you're out of hearts for replacements (plus replacing takes forever, imagine doing taht with 3-4 organs, cloning is faster at that point).

[Kryson]

i think libtard/ yuri organ damage should be upped a bit i never had seen any organ damage effect from those

Agree, they were massivley overbuffed, especially libital.

Libital is WAY stronger than bicardine ever was.

As for the corpse decay issue i have a potential solution i am going to PR, even though i think we have the tools to solve the issue already(mainly SR).

[Dr_bee]

i think libtard/ yuri organ damage should be upped a bit i never had seen any organ damage effect from those

Agree, they were massivley overbuffed, especially libital.

Libital is WAY stronger than bicardine ever was.

As for the corpse decay issue i have a potential solution i am going to PR, even though i think we have the tools to solve the issue already(mainly SR).

For reference, 5 units of Libital heals 75 brute damage while doing around 7 liver damage. 5 units of Aiuri heals 50 units of burn damage and does around 6 eye damage.

Nerfing Libital healing to 2 brute a tick would be better, making it heal 50 damage with 5 units.

Both Aiuri and Libital should do around .4 organ damage a tick, which makes 5 units deal a flat 10 organ damage.

This would make fully healing someone from crit cause 20 organ damage, which is a non-trivial amount but not too much to cause mass organ failure from everyday healing.

[deedubya]

Libital is WAY stronger than bicardine ever was.

This is just completely false. Neither lizardchems or cobbychems have ever been anywhere near as strong as trekchems were for massive amounts of risk-free healing.