Talking mimes shouldn't be valid

deedubya · Post by **deedubya** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:49 pm #519847

See title. Dumb rule that limits creative expression in a role meant to encourage it, and encourages players to continue to be validhunting assholes. I've never not seen a mime immediately get lynched upon this rule being introduced. Give players a target and an excuse to murder them, and no force imaginable is going to stop them. It also gives the mime an excuse to self-antag. Break vow of silence>murder anyone that gets within screen distance of you. You're justified because everyone else could potentially murder you at any moment, all because you had something to say.

Spoiler:

Sandshark808 · Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:15 pm

Nobody really kills talking mimes if you talk for a good reason, but realistically why play mime if you want to talk? It's not called "Assistant Clown" or "I want to tide but in a mask," it's a mime.

BTW, if a mime fights back against the lynch mob they're in the wrong. If they assault people after speaking it's bannable. Being valid doesn't mean you automatically get to murder people.

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:21 pm #519857

why was this even introduced? it's dumb as fuck

Gigapuddi420 · Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:23 pm

Sandshark808 wrote:Nobody really kills talking mimes if you talk for a good reason, but realistically why play mime if you want to talk? It's not called "Assistant Clown" or "I want to tide but in a mask," it's a mime.

I've seen a couple times where a Mime is killed by security because they chose to speak in their own defense. It's valid but kind of sad to see. Most Mimes at least seem to understand this point.

The real issue with talking Mimes being valid is when people think they heard the Mime speak or are falsely claiming the Mime spoke to get the in trouble. These are honestly a huge pain in the ass to deal with as it requires a bit of effort to determine if the guy is stupid or acting maliciously to get the Mime killed. In most cases I tell people who murder Mimes for this falsely that it's on them to be sure the Mime actually deserves the valid salad they are dishing out.

I wouldn't mind seeing talking Mimes going back to a shunned but not expressly valid to murder. Having these explicit policy exceptions telling players they can murder someone like this tend to cause the odd complication for little benefit.

deedubya · Post by **deedubya** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:24 pm #519859

Sandshark808 wrote:Nobody really kills talking mimes if you talk for a good reason

Yes, and nobody kills the friendly wizard either.

Do you even play the same game that the rest of us do?

Post by **Arianya** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:18 pm #519876

Don't pick the gimmick role if you don't want to play the gimmick.

Breaking your oath should be something you consider as having implied weight to it - the best way to enforce this in a round-based game where an "oath" is largely meaningless is making it dangerous for the player's continued participation in the round.

Giga does raise good points about things such as mistaken cases of mime's speaking, but largely these are no different to other possible "mistaken kill" scenarios - we generally can tell a good faith actor vs someone trying to slip under the radar.

skoglol · Post by **skoglol** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:06 am #519881

Shoeless clowns should be treated the same way imo, fuck shoeless clowns. Not literally, you weirdo.

Mimes should have a limited PDA vocabulary too, preferably just emojis. Same with paper. If you can't mime it out, you dont want it enough.

Also fuck these mimes.

wesoda25 · Post by **wesoda25** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:22 am #519882

Clowns at least have possible gimmicks going for them without shoes, I've seen some good Jester/Griffin stuff before. The purpose of the clown is to be funny/entertaining, and shoes aren't necessarily a prerequisite.

But mimes only purpose is to be quiet and if they fail that they deserve to die.

teepeepee · Post by **teepeepee** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:56 am #519887

don't play the mute role if you don't wanna be mute, kind of like you don't play non humans if you want silicon protection roundstart

Sandshark808 · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:29 am

deedubya wrote:
Sandshark808 wrote:Nobody really kills talking mimes if you talk for a good reason
Yes, and nobody kills the friendly wizard either.

Do you even play the same game that the rest of us do?

I've been forced to talk as a mime (tortured by security) and also tried to get people robusted as a traitor with a mime target, but nobody goes after mimes who speak even though they're allowed to. I've also seen mimes talk and tried to gin up a witch hunt to swirlie them, and nobody responds. Maybe it's just Sybil culture?

deedubya · Post by **deedubya** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:07 am #519893

Sandshark808 wrote:
deedubya wrote:
Sandshark808 wrote:Nobody really kills talking mimes if you talk for a good reason
Yes, and nobody kills the friendly wizard either.

Do you even play the same game that the rest of us do?
I've been forced to talk as a mime (tortured by security) and also tried to get people robusted as a traitor with a mime target, but nobody goes after mimes who speak even though they're allowed to. I've also seen mimes talk and tried to gin up a witch hunt to swirlie them, and nobody responds. Maybe it's just Sybil culture?

I play exclusively on Sybil, and every time I've seen the mime talk, either in common or just in local, they've always been found dead sooner rather than later. Hell, one time recently on Kilo, there was a legitimate greytide trying to get into the HOP office. The mime said something, I don't even remember what it was. All I remember is that all the assistants immediately stopped trying to break into the HOPffice and proceeded to toolbox the mime so hard he didn't even know what happened, made peace with the HOP after they gave their thanks for removing the talking mime, then everyone moved on with their shift. It was amazing, yet still absolutely retarded.

Sandshark808 · Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:31 am

I have no idea why we have such different experiences then.

teepeepee · Post by **teepeepee** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:33 am #519904

deedubya wrote:
Sandshark808 wrote:
deedubya wrote:
Sandshark808 wrote:Nobody really kills talking mimes if you talk for a good reason
Yes, and nobody kills the friendly wizard either.

Do you even play the same game that the rest of us do?
I've been forced to talk as a mime (tortured by security) and also tried to get people robusted as a traitor with a mime target, but nobody goes after mimes who speak even though they're allowed to. I've also seen mimes talk and tried to gin up a witch hunt to swirlie them, and nobody responds. Maybe it's just Sybil culture?
I play exclusively on Sybil, and every time I've seen the mime talk, either in common or just in local, they've always been found dead sooner rather than later. Hell, one time recently on Kilo, there was a legitimate greytide trying to get into the HOP office. The mime said something, I don't even remember what it was. All I remember is that all the assistants immediately stopped trying to break into the HOPffice and proceeded to toolbox the mime so hard he didn't even know what happened, made peace with the HOP after they gave their thanks for removing the talking mime, then everyone moved on with their shift. It was amazing, yet still absolutely retarded.

lmao at sybil being the "rp" server

Tlaltecuhtli · Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:33 am

there is no rule about mime speaking being valid/not valid

if you killed/have killed you just got baited

deedubya · Post by **deedubya** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:41 am #519929

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:there is no rule about mime speaking being valid/not valid

if you killed/have killed you just got baited

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 41&t=19699

Analbifida · Post by **Analbifida** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:59 am #519941

Mimes have a ventriloquist dummy so they can speak without actually speaking, just use that and you won't get lynched.

Iatots · Post by **Iatots** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:15 pm #519981

Analbifida wrote:Mimes have a ventriloquist dummy so they can speak without actually speaking, just use that and you won't get lynched.

Mimes have never been able to use the dummy.

Reyn · Post by **Reyn** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:27 pm #519983

Iatots wrote:
Analbifida wrote:Mimes have a ventriloquist dummy so they can speak without actually speaking, just use that and you won't get lynched.
Mimes have never been able to use the dummy.

WHAT dummy?

Mickyan · Post by **Mickyan** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:32 pm #519984

As long as this rule exists allowing mimes to break their oath is a dumb cop out and either one should be removed

Analbifida · Post by **Analbifida** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:28 pm #519990

Iatots wrote:
Analbifida wrote:Mimes have a ventriloquist dummy so they can speak without actually speaking, just use that and you won't get lynched.
Mimes have never been able to use the dummy.

Seems I was wrong, I was pretty sure I had used it as a mime before. You can still use it if you break the vow as a workaround to not get lynched.

terranaut · Post by **terranaut** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:07 pm #519995

remember when mimes couldnt break their oaths

teepeepee · Post by **teepeepee** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:05 am #520045

Reyn wrote:
Iatots wrote:
Analbifida wrote:Mimes have a ventriloquist dummy so they can speak without actually speaking, just use that and you won't get lynched.
Mimes have never been able to use the dummy.
WHAT dummy?

the one you hold in one hand and use .l or .r (depending on which hand) to speak through

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:41 am #520078

I don't think you can do something that makes you valid and then kill anyone who comes to kill you, unless you were already an antag.

crashmatusow · Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:34 pm

Have y’all tried not being fucking sociopaths?

Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:16 pm

Perhaps a solution would be to have a Mime that breaks its oath gib upon doing so.

Keeps filthy fucking talking mimes off the server and denies valid hunters there salt for killing them.

Post by **Cobby** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:19 pm #520101

It should be changed to permit escalation, not outright KoS in the same way it should be permissible to escalate against a doctor not healing you, an engineer not making power, etc.

Basically it makes the mime the instigator

Gamarr · Post by **Gamarr** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:59 pm #520114

And you wonder why mimes are assholes.

Tarchonvaagh · Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:54 pm

Ivan Issaccs wrote:Perhaps a solution would be to have a Mime that breaks its oath gib upon doing so.

Keeps filthy fucking talking mimes off the server and denies valid hunters there salt for killing them.

Or just fully remove the action button

Post by **Cobby** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:30 pm #520135

can we make assistants who don't assist valid next?

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:06 pm #520137

deedubya wrote:See title. Dumb rule that limits creative expression in a role meant to encourage it

it does the opposite of this actually; it forces mimes to utilize their creative capabilities to actually pantomime stuff, which is, you know, the entire fucking point of the mime

Gamarr · Post by **Gamarr** » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:26 pm #520201

I want to point out that you want assistants that don't do anything but want to hold a mime to a standard of not-talking and kill him just for breaking it. Do you not see the absurdity of this?

Tarchonvaagh · Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:18 pm

Gamarr wrote:I want to point out that you want assistants that don't do anything but want to hold a mime to a standard of not-talking and kill him just for breaking it. Do you not see the absurdity of this?

remov asestunt

confused rock · Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:03 pm

No? Assistant is the basic stress free job. Mime is a unique job which is based around the one obligation. Anyone not doing that one thing is wasting the only slot. Not that that matters, because this is dumb.

Post by **Cobby** » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:18 pm #520967

an obligation decreed by whom? It's permissible via the code...

Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:07 pm

I feel bad for removing my suspenders and beret, let alone breaking the vow.

Sandshark808 · Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:44 pm

NecromancerAnne wrote:I feel bad for removing my suspenders and beret, let alone breaking the vow.

Clowns who take off their shoes deserve to have their feet removed.

Nervere · Post by **Nervere** » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:01 pm #521143

Shitter mimes who speak deserve death.

terranaut · Post by **terranaut** » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:37 pm #521168

The proper punishment is to forcefully cut their tongue out.

Qbmax32 · Post by **Qbmax32** » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:19 pm #521260

Why pick the gimmick job if you don’t want to play the gimmick lol

Talking mimes deserve death

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:48 pm #521351

why pick the job meant to be used as a newbie role to just be a general nuisance / hunt antags / gather gear so when antags reveal you can proceed to hunt them?

Assistants who don't assist deserve death

Farquaar · Post by **Farquaar** » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:38 pm #521377

Cobby wrote:why pick the job meant to be used as a newbie role to just be a general nuisance / hunt antags / gather gear so when antags reveal you can proceed to hunt them?

Assistants who don't assist deserve death

This but unironically

imsxz · Post by **imsxz** » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:53 pm #521538

Cobby wrote:why pick the job meant to be used as a newbie role to just be a general nuisance / hunt antags / gather gear so when antags reveal you can proceed to hunt them?

Assistants who don't assist deserve death

assistant isnt a gimmick job and has no general expectation of anyone. if anything, people expect assistants to shit up the place.

mimes are expected to pantomime stuff and NOT TALK. Ask anyone, ss13 player or not, what they expect of a mime. Not only will they mention stuff like the classic invisible box, they'll 99% mentino that mimes dont talk.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:06 pm #521539

Cobby wrote:why pick the job meant to be used as a newbie role to just be a general nuisance / hunt antags / gather gear so when antags reveal you can proceed to hunt them?

Assistants who don't assist deserve death

Assistants are literally given a link to various gimmicks they can do instead of assisting in their spawn text upon joining.

Tarchonvaagh · Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:48 am

terranaut wrote:The proper punishment is to forcefully cut their tongue out.

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:29 am #521747

Mines breaking their vow should be hit with such a heavy mood debuff no amount of mindbreaker and space drug should make them neutral.

skoglol · Post by **skoglol** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:33 am #521748

Davidchan wrote:Mines breaking their vow should be hit with such a heavy mood debuff no amount of mindbreaker and space drug should make them neutral.

Or buckshot. Buckshot works too.

Screemonster · Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:28 pm

Davidchan wrote:Mines breaking their vow should be hit with such a heavy mood debuff no amount of mindbreaker and space drug should make them neutral.

this

speaking isn't "acting like an antag" anyway so I dunno where nonantags get the idea they can just murder them unless they want to argue that the mime has attacked them by speaking somehow therefore it's escalation

deedubya · Post by **deedubya** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:48 pm #521815

A clown that doesn't honk isn't valid.
An assistant that doesn't assist isn't valid.
An engineer that doesn't fix shit isn't valid.
A doctor that doesn't heal people isn't valid.
A chemist that doesn't make medicine isn't valid.
A scientist that doesn't do research isn't valid.
A cook that doesn't cook isn't valid.
A mime that doesn't stay silent is valid.

Where's the consistency? It's pretty obvious from every single other job on the station that not doing your job the way you're expected to isn't a crime worthy of death/lynching. Yet we make an exception for what is essentially the most harmless role on the station when done "incorrectly".

Farquaar · Post by **Farquaar** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:27 pm #521819

deedubya wrote:A clown that doesn't honk isn't valid.
An assistant that doesn't assist isn't valid.
An engineer that doesn't fix shit isn't valid.
A doctor that doesn't heal people isn't valid.
A chemist that doesn't make medicine isn't valid.
A scientist that doesn't do research isn't valid.
A cook that doesn't cook isn't valid.
A mime that doesn't stay silent is valid.

Where's the consistency? It's pretty obvious from every single other job on the station that not doing your job the way you're expected to isn't a crime worthy of death/lynching. Yet we make an exception for what is essentially the most harmless role on the station when done "incorrectly".

To provide a counterargument, if someone doesn't do their job gets demoted:

A demoted clown is just clumsy. Plus, it's not uncommon for unfunny clowns to get lynched
A demoted assistant is just a permabrig resident.
A demoted engineer, doctor, chemist and scientist has no special abilities.
A demoted cook has an ability that can only be used in the workspace that he no longer has access to (and presumably wasn't using before he was demoted)
A demoted mime will still have the ability to retake their vow of silence when it suits them, granting them access to annoying mime powers no matter what IC action is taken.

The mime is really one of the only jobs that has innate powers that you can't truly take away, and these powers are tied to whether the mime speaks or not. Is killing your coworker for speaking weird from an RP perspective? Yes. But it'll have to be replaced with serious IC consequences that go beyond a temporary inconvenience.

deedubya · Post by **deedubya** » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:08 pm #521870

Farquaar wrote:
deedubya wrote:snip
To provide a counterargument, if someone doesn't do their job gets demoted:

A demoted clown is just clumsy. Plus, it's not uncommon for unfunny clowns to get lynched
A demoted assistant is just a permabrig resident.
A demoted engineer, doctor, chemist and scientist has no special abilities.
A demoted cook has an ability that can only be used in the workspace that he no longer has access to (and presumably wasn't using before he was demoted)
A demoted mime will still have the ability to retake their vow of silence when it suits them, granting them access to annoying mime powers no matter what IC action is taken.

The mime is really one of the only jobs that has innate powers that you can't truly take away, and these powers are tied to whether the mime speaks or not. Is killing your coworker for speaking weird from an RP perspective? Yes. But it'll have to be replaced with serious IC consequences that go beyond a temporary inconvenience.

The punishment for breaking the vow is being locked out of your griffwalls for a not insignificant amount of time until you can renew your vow. In fact, that just made me think up a fairly decent code solution: The timer for being able to re-take your vow of silence resets every time you use the "say" verb, rather than it just being a static timer starting when you broke it in the first place.

Also, lynching the clown without proper escalation is still against the rules, so I'm not sure how that applies as a point in support of this.