Ignoring/looting dead people in medbay

Xeroxemnas · Post by **Xeroxemnas** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:36 pm #515353

Here's a hypothetical.

I go through all the effort of upgrading the cloner and scanner to full T4 parts to make cloning easier for everyone so people don't have to wait as long. Instead of using the cloner however I see shitters (nonantag ones) just looting the (cloneable) bodies outside the cloner and not even trying to clone them even with the fucking autoscanner enabled. Would this fall under rule 1: Don't be a dick?

I would imagine that even the dumbest of the dumb would realize that these people want to be cloned and if the person is smart enough to go through all their shit and steal their ID/guns etc, they should be able to put a guy in a scanner. It's even worse when you clone that very same person and they don't even have the common decency to pay it forward and do it for you in turn (cough Respii).

teepeepee · Post by **teepeepee** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:19 pm #515355

It's the doctor's job and I'm not going to steal it from him (moonlighting is NOT okay)
besides, why, out of all the dick-like things you're free to do like: tiding, helping antags as long as you have IC reasoning and don't do antag things yourself (ex: healing an antag, letting them steal an objective you have, etc.), leaving pills or gene autoinjectors with random contents around the floor without being responsible for their effects (as long as they're not viruses), making way over the ammount of power required so when someone get's shocked they get husked, etc; would cloning someone be a thing you're forced to do?
sounds like you're saltposting and should remember the golden rule, rule 10

Screemonster · Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:25 pm

I'm not allowed to kill you, but that doesn't mean I have to save you.

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:59 pm #515360

As a doctor I really wish we had more security officers to stop people from coming in and jacking peoples stuff. I cant risk throwing people out myself as I dont have the equipment and doing so just gives them an excuse to make my life even more hell.

deedubya · Post by **deedubya** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:11 pm #515361

Pretty sure looting corpses in a cloning queue as a non-antag is a huge rule 1 violation. Ahelp that shit if you see it.

Xeroxemnas · Post by **Xeroxemnas** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:19 pm #515362

deedubya wrote:Pretty sure looting corpses in a cloning queue as a non-antag is a huge rule 1 violation. Ahelp that shit if you see it.

Admin: "Lol it's part of the game bro sorry you got killed by that admin spawned megafauna it's not our problem if you get looted by Greytide McCunt while getting cloned

."

Reyn · Post by **Reyn** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:22 pm #515364

Admins probably shouldn't be IC issueing this behaviour if its a nonantag stealing shit for no good reason.

Hell I think the captain fucking stole my id and PDA once when I was being cloned.

capn_monkeypaw · Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:38 pm

I've said before and I'll say it again:

Clone room vultures are the lowest form of spessman.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:31 pm #515374

Have you tried not dying?

Xeroxemnas · Post by **Xeroxemnas** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:44 pm #515375

CPTANT wrote:Have you tried not dying?

I'll make sure you to strip all your shit and leave your body in maint as a nonantag next time I see you bro :^) Can't wait for the angry ahelp.

wesoda25 · Post by **wesoda25** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:51 pm #515397

Xeroxemnas wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Have you tried not dying?
I'll make sure you to strip all your shit and leave your body in maint as a nonantag next time I see you bro :^) Can't wait for the angry ahelp.

That would be hiding a body which you can be bwoinked for

teepeepee · Post by **teepeepee** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:57 pm #515398

Xeroxemnas wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Have you tried not dying?
I'll make sure you to strip all your shit and leave your body in maint as a nonantag next time I see you bro :^) Can't wait for the angry ahelp.

only crybabies ahelp

Reyn · Post by **Reyn** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:58 pm #515399

teepeepee wrote:
Xeroxemnas wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Have you tried not dying?
I'll make sure you to strip all your shit and leave your body in maint as a nonantag next time I see you bro :^) Can't wait for the angry ahelp.
only crybabies ahelp

Found the greytider.

teepeepee · Post by **teepeepee** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:00 pm #515400

I main sec and assistant
I don't see how that's relevant though

Arathian · Post by **Arathian** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:04 pm #515406

Scenario:

I was RD and I was the only head in med pop shift (30ish people). I go to secure captain's locker. I find a 'tider inside captain's office. I tell him to go out, he refuses, I stunbaton and throw out.

A bit later (~10m) I was literally gunned down absolutely randomly by the detective. The detective had some......serious confusion about things. He was a new guy. It happens. Whatever, admeme talked to him.

Meanwhile I get to cloning. While I am being cloned, the same greytider goes, loots the captain's ID, grabs my body and literally yeets it into space with all my stuff in it.

It was ruled IC.

Now, I don't necessarily MIND this being ruled IC. But when there apparently things that are far less severe and we have an admin intervention, I have no idea why breaking into every door, stealing every thing not locked down (and often things that are), looting people in cloning and so on are suddenly all IC.

Basically, it seems like greytiders get a special pass because it has been established as part of the game while other behaviour that is on the same level is not. I strongly come down on the libertarian side of things, but the rules should be equal. If people want to greytide and break the station in half, I should be allowed to borg them. if security wants to power abuse, we should be allowed to properly revolt. If the doctor wants to mess with my organs for 10m instead of yeeting me inside the t4 cloner I upgraded myself, I should be able to call him a brainlet nigger. Simple stuff.

Sandshark808 · Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:17 pm

Arathian wrote:Basically, it seems like greytiders get a special pass because it has been established as part of the game while other behaviour that is on the same level is not. I strongly come down on the libertarian side of things, but the rules should be equal. If people want to greytide and break the station in half, I should be allowed to borg them. if security wants to power abuse, we should be allowed to properly revolt. If the doctor wants to mess with my organs for 10m instead of yeeting me inside the t4 cloner I upgraded myself, I should be able to call him a brainlet nigger. Simple stuff.

I don't think I've ever been ahelped for sending a major criminal/greytider to the RD for borging. As long as you get a sign off from the captain or sec instead of just going right to the surgical suite it seems like that'd be all IC.

Xeroxemnas · Post by **Xeroxemnas** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:20 pm #515411

Arathian wrote:Basically, it seems like greytiders get a special pass because it has been established as part of the game while other behaviour that is on the same level is not.

Ding ding ding.

Post by **Cobby** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:34 pm #515414

Arathian wrote:Scenario:

I was RD and I was the only head in med pop shift (30ish people). I go to secure captain's locker. I find a 'tider inside captain's office. I tell him to go out, he refuses, I stunbaton and throw out.

A bit later (~10m) I was literally gunned down absolutely randomly by the detective. The detective had some......serious confusion about things. He was a new guy. It happens. Whatever, admeme talked to him.

Meanwhile I get to cloning. While I am being cloned, the same greytider goes, loots the captain's ID, grabs my body and literally yeets it into space with all my stuff in it.

It was ruled IC.

Now, I don't necessarily MIND this being ruled IC. But when there apparently things that are far less severe and we have an admin intervention, I have no idea why breaking into every door, stealing every thing not locked down (and often things that are), looting people in cloning and so on are suddenly all IC.

Basically, it seems like greytiders get a special pass because it has been established as part of the game while other behaviour that is on the same level is not. I strongly come down on the libertarian side of things, but the rules should be equal. If people want to greytide and break the station in half, I should be allowed to borg them. if security wants to power abuse, we should be allowed to properly revolt. If the doctor wants to mess with my organs for 10m instead of yeeting me inside the t4 cloner I upgraded myself, I should be able to call him a brainlet nigger. Simple stuff.

should have complainted that considering he spaced your body fnr.

Malkraz · Post by **Malkraz** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:41 pm #515417

NOOOO MY INSULS

Tlaltecuhtli · Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:46 pm

ic issue

medical can shoot vultures with lethals or idk there is a sec officer assigned to medical maybe he can do uhhh stuff instead of going into maint and die?

wesoda25 · Post by **wesoda25** » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:55 pm #515428

Arathian wrote:Scenario:

I was RD

imma stop you right there and say whatever happened to you was valid

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:03 am #515450

the rules wrote:You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety.

Malkraz · Post by **Malkraz** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:48 am #515454

ACKSHUALLY, "property" in this clause refers to the property of the department, not that of the corpses residing within. Sorry kiddo but I'll be stealing off your corpse as well after you instigate against me and you won't be cloned

Sandshark808 · Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:01 am

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:ic issue

medical can shoot vultures with lethals or idk there is a sec officer assigned to medical maybe he can do uhhh stuff instead of going into maint and die?

Good excuse for chem to make weird poisons or chloral. Shoot vultures with chloral and drag them to sec.

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:12 pm #515515

Sandshark808 wrote:
Tlaltecuhtli wrote:ic issue

medical can shoot vultures with lethals or idk there is a sec officer assigned to medical maybe he can do uhhh stuff instead of going into maint and die?
Good excuse for chem to make weird poisons or chloral. Shoot vultures with chloral and drag them to sec.

No sec. Asshole medicine thieves and clone room vultures get 'volunteered' to become medical experiments. Nothing discourages thieving like removing a thief's left leg and left arm and then asking if they are alright.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:17 pm #515534

Medbay personnel have access to powerful crowd control weaponry, more than enough to subdue and throw out (or even kill, if escalation allows it) any interloper. Also medbay sec officers.

If I'm broke and I need a quick buck, I'll hit the cloning queue and look for some fat IDs. I try not to get noticed but if it happens, I'm aware of the consequences. I certainly don't expect to get a bwoink and a "STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM" from admins.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:58 pm #515545

I still say assistants shouldn't have Asimov protections and be treated like second-class citizens, considering most are vultures and a bigger danger to me than the actual antagonists are.

Xeroxemnas · Post by **Xeroxemnas** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:00 pm #515546

Anonmare wrote:I still say assistants shouldn't have Asimov protections and be treated like second-class citizens, considering most are vultures and a bigger danger to me than the actual antagonists are.

Also this

>die valiantly while killing nuke ops/wizard/whatever as sec/captain/whatever

>some assistant rewards me by stealing all my shit and preventing me from stopping the next big nasty from ruining everything

T-thanks.

Reyn · Post by **Reyn** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:25 pm #515577

although there seems to be no written rules SPECIFICALLY stating this, It probably falls under dont be a dick. If you're nonantag and the person is reasonably cloneable, don't loot them for no fucking reason. But then again, up to staff to decide on this, and I'm not staff.

Coconutwarrior97 · Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:47 pm

As long as they arent somehow preventing the body they're looting from being cloned I would most likely rule it an IC issue. As soon as they drag it away into maint, stuff it in a locker, or space it I would bwoink them over it.

Post by **Arianya** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:34 pm #515592

Generally people who are dead are held to need their gear less then the living.

That doesn't mean "full strip everyone you see just to be a jerk" but if you need their access to do x or you need something they have to survive/stay safe (i.e. oxygen in a swiss cheese station, gun in a station gone to hell, etc.) then I'm really not going to care to bwoink you over that.

As for "ignoring" - no one owes you a cloning. I'm certainly not going to bwoink people because they didn't clone you automatically upon seeing your body.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:18 pm #515603

Reyn wrote:although there seems to be no written rules SPECIFICALLY stating this, It probably falls under dont be a dick. If you're nonantag and the person is reasonably cloneable, don't loot them for no fucking reason. But then again, up to staff to decide on this, and I'm not staff.

To be honest I really detest this new trend of putting every petty inconvenience under "being a dick". There is an element of survival in the game and you sometimes need gear to survive.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:44 pm #515608

Even if I don't actually need it to survive, it's not like I'm looting that juicy e-gun and armor specifically "to be a dick" to the player, so rule 1 shouldn't come into consideration anyway.

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:06 am

Grazyn wrote:Even if I don't actually need it to survive, it's not like I'm looting that juicy e-gun and armor specifically "to be a dick" to the player, so rule 1 shouldn't come into consideration anyway.

^
Sick of these threads that go "couldn't [any action that isnt obviously and explicitly friendly] be considered being a dick? isnt that rule 1???"
Do you people realize you're allowed to make new rules and precedents here rather than filing every single thing that so much as annoys you as rule 1?

Anyways yeah getting your shit stolen is annoying but it could be for reasons that are totally in character and it can and does often lead to IC conflict. The geneticist beating a vulture over the head and getting him arrested, a sec officer waking up and realizing his gun is missing leading to the detective coming in to check things out, etc.
Banning for it would be lame because it would kill all of that and also it would make looting bodies and explicitly antagonistic action which sucks because that's just way too easy to meta. Also, don't act like you've never done it, because I'll bet that you've all done it at some point. inb4 some liar quotes this and says "uhhh ive never done it :^D". Did you do it with the intent of being a dick, or did you see something shiny and go "this is mine now"? Perhaps you needed it for some reason. I've personally stolen a toolbelt off of a dead engineer to fix the cloner APC, then kept it after he was revived as collateral. By all intents I stole his belt off of his dead body, but if OP had his way I'd get banned for it.

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:55 am #515665

Xeroxemnas wrote:Instead of using the cloner however I see shitters (nonantag ones) just looting the (cloneable) bodies outside the cloner and not even trying to clone them even with the fucking autoscanner enabled. Would this fall under rule 1: Don't be a dick?

no
cry more

i don't do it and i don't condone it but i will defend your right to be a shitter to the death sir/ma'am

Spoiler:

teepeepee wrote:It's the doctor's job and I'm not going to steal it from him (moonlighting is NOT okay)

firstly it's the geneticist's job and secondly after being cloned if you don't try to clone the next person if no one else is around you're a fagé

Post by **TWATICUS** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:18 pm #515684

PKPenguin321 wrote:snip

uhhh ive never done it :^D

HommandoSA · Post by **HommandoSA** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:40 pm #515690

PKPenguin321 wrote:inb4 some liar quotes this and says "uhhh ive never done it :^D".

I have never stolen from a cloneable dead body outside of being an antag.

Xeroxemnas · Post by **Xeroxemnas** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:48 pm #515693

HommandoSA wrote:I have never stolen from a cloneable dead body outside of being an antag.

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

Karp · Post by **Karp** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:37 pm #515791

I think people are confusing "Don't be a dick" here with "Don't be rude". "Don't be a dick" means don't repeatedly go out of your way to fuck with someone. Someone inconveniencing you by looting your corpse may be a rude move but they aren't being a dick. Someone going out of their way to loot your corpse exclusively every round, regardless of your role, is them potentially being a dick due to them going out of their way to target you and inconvenience you. Someone killing you isn't them being a dick. Someone going out of their way to kill you specifically with any excuse every round they can might be. Someone talking shit about you and insulting you while rude, is still not covering what "don't be a dick" means. As a guideline, if it's specifically targeted, if it gets repetitive, and/or if it feels like an extreme response, it might be covered by "Don't be a dick".

Xeroxemnas · Post by **Xeroxemnas** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:59 pm #515797

Karp wrote:I think people are confusing "Don't be a dick" here with "Don't be rude". "Don't be a dick" means don't repeatedly go out of your way to fuck with someone. Someone inconveniencing you by looting your corpse may be a rude move but they aren't being a dick. Someone going out of their way to loot your corpse exclusively every round, regardless of your role, is them potentially being a dick due to them going out of their way to target you and inconvenience you. Someone killing you isn't them being a dick. Someone going out of their way to kill you specifically with any excuse every round they can might be. Someone talking shit about you and insulting you while rude, is still not covering what "don't be a dick" means. As a guideline, if it's specifically targeted, if it gets repetitive, and/or if it feels like an extreme response, it might be covered by "Don't be a dick".

Fair enough, thank you for clarifying. You can feel free to lock the thread if you want.

deedubya · Post by **deedubya** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:05 pm #515799

Karp wrote:I think people are confusing "Don't be a dick" here with "Don't be rude". "Don't be a dick" means don't repeatedly go out of your way to fuck with someone. Someone inconveniencing you by looting your corpse may be a rude move but they aren't being a dick. Someone going out of their way to loot your corpse exclusively every round, regardless of your role, is them potentially being a dick due to them going out of their way to target you and inconvenience you. Someone killing you isn't them being a dick. Someone going out of their way to kill you specifically with any excuse every round they can might be. Someone talking shit about you and insulting you while rude, is still not covering what "don't be a dick" means. As a guideline, if it's specifically targeted, if it gets repetitive, and/or if it feels like an extreme response, it might be covered by "Don't be a dick".

"Don't be rude" would cover shoving a guy as he's coming out of the cloner, or stealing some unimportant item off him(like a hat or something replacable). "Don't be a dick" is looting IDs, job-specific/rarer items, or god knows what off a body that does not have the "soul has departed" message and is clearly in line at the cloner. You could make the argument that clone room vultures are an IC issue, but it's interpretations like this that have slowly eroded any meaning from the term IC issue. Not discouraging this type of behavior encourages the general attitude of "as long as it's not explicitly forbidden by the rules, I'll act as antagonistic as possible" mentality that so many players have adopted in the past couple years.

Karp · Post by **Karp** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:23 pm #515803

my response isn't a fully finalized response and the other headmins can and should chime in if they disagree with my interpretation, I'm just specifying as to what "Don't be a dick" in rule 1 generally stands for.

We generally allow things like that to be IC to encourage interesting storytelling, at the cost of minor ic grief and enabling shitty players, because one round of someone taking shit "because they can" is the cost for having rounds where someone might nab a toolbelt/id/gun/whatever that can help them in saving the station or another interesting and rich personal story. That's why we generally tie in the "Repetitive" bit because if someone does this 24/7 just to jack shit constantly it gets incredibly boring and doesn't contribute to enhancing and improving in-round storytelling or player agency, it's just someone hoarding shit to powergame and be a boring square.

deedubya · Post by **deedubya** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:27 pm #515806

Karp wrote:We generally allow things like that to be IC to encourage interesting storytelling, at the cost of minor ic grief and enabling shitty players, because one round of someone taking shit "because they can" is the cost for having rounds where someone might nab a toolbelt/id/gun/whatever that can help them in saving the station or another interesting and rich personal story. That's why we generally tie in the "Repetitive" bit because if someone does this 24/7 just to jack shit constantly it gets incredibly boring and doesn't contribute to enhancing and improving in-round storytelling or player agency, it's just someone hoarding shit to powergame and be a boring square.

For the record, I agree with the "I needed it to do X" excuse. I don't even mind "forgetting" to return the items afterwards if you legitimately used the items to try to further the round as a non-antag. I just think a simple interaction like "hey, any reason you swiped that dead guy's ID?" "it's not against the rules lol" should get punished, while "I needed to get into engineering to try and save the delamming SM" is fair game. Right now it feels like both are fair game, which I obviously don't agree with.

Xeroxemnas · Post by **Xeroxemnas** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:22 pm #515816

deedubya wrote:For the record, I agree with the "I needed it to do X" excuse. I don't even mind "forgetting" to return the items afterwards if you legitimately used the items to try to further the round as a non-antag. I just think a simple interaction like "hey, any reason you swiped that dead guy's ID?" "it's not against the rules lol" should get punished, while "I needed to get into engineering to try and save the delamming SM" is fair game. Right now it feels like both are fair game, which I obviously don't agree with.

Yeah, even I have had circumstances where things have gone completely down the shitter and it was absolutely necessary to steal shit to save the station. Which is precisely why I used a very specific situation in the OP to highlight when people do it for literally no other reason than to be a faggot and grief people. I'd simply prefer if ahelping it immediately didn't result in an "IC issue" message and the admin would at least ask the person why they're stealing shit off everyone in medbay, including people like the captain and security officers.

Krusvik · Post by **Krusvik** » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:46 am #515853

Like with everything this can go either way depending on the case.

Are you bored or just tiding and looking for loot? Bad faith.

Is the station in red alert, the engine is on fire, people are dying in the halls, and there's sec gear on a dead officer in front of you? Valid.

Arathian · Post by **Arathian** » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:12 am #515867

I think this is less about people looting a corpse's firesuit because the station is on fire right now and more about "lol time to break into medbay to get epic phat lewtz off of corpses. Neat, this assistant has insuls and toolbelt *YOINK*" type situations.

teepeepee · Post by **teepeepee** » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:35 am #515869

Arathian wrote:I think this is less about people looting a corpse's firesuit because the station is on fire right now and more about "lol time to break into medbay to get epic phat lewtz off of corpses. Neat, this assistant has insuls and toolbelt *YOINK*" type situations.

why is this bad?

Arathian · Post by **Arathian** » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:36 am #515870

teepeepee wrote:
Arathian wrote:I think this is less about people looting a corpse's firesuit because the station is on fire right now and more about "lol time to break into medbay to get epic phat lewtz off of corpses. Neat, this assistant has insuls and toolbelt *YOINK*" type situations.
why is this bad?

I am saying what this thread is about, not that it's bad.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:27 am #515906

teepeepee wrote:
Arathian wrote:I think this is less about people looting a corpse's firesuit because the station is on fire right now and more about "lol time to break into medbay to get epic phat lewtz off of corpses. Neat, this assistant has insuls and toolbelt *YOINK*" type situations.
why is this bad?

Because it's an IC issue? Would an admin bwoink you for slipping someone to steal his gloves?

Post by **Hulkamania** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:09 am #517865

If someone is coming along and rifling through your pockets for one or two specific items that's an IC issue. Likewise if someone is looting your entire corpse it's often going to be an IC issue as well. This is a particularly tricky subject because enforcing it is taxing on an administrator who has to hunt down the items, try to determine motivation for the crime, and otherwise spend a lot of time attempting to get to the bottom of the situation.

Essentially a dead body that is clearly awaiting to be cloned should be treated the same as stunning someone for no reason in the hallway to take their belongings. Are you just taking their shoes for a laugh? Are you taking everything they own and refusing to give it back when they ask? Are you taking away important items that might make it more difficult for them to do their job (a miners PKA, engineers gloves or hardsuit, etc.)? This is compounded by the fact that technically anything that happens to your corpse while you're dead is not the knowledge of your in character self.

This is first and foremost a rule 1 issue and depends entirely upon the context, things being taken, and reasons it was taken. If you truly believe it to be over the line from a normal scenario of someone taking your things and it cannot be resolved IC'ly due to other circumstances, ahelping it would then be appropriate.

tl;dr a corpse that is obviously about to be cloned should be treated much the same as any living person when it comes to taking their things, but like everything else often depends on context and intent.