[POLL] Security Sprite Changes

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:55 pm #50607

Bottom post of the previous page:

What would possibly get this reverted if a massive negative poll result is not enough to prevent it happening in the first place? Also steelpoint is on the ball, beret as default headware.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:07 pm #50611

Maybe a significant reason presented to the maintainers as to why the sprite pallete for our security should be 1:1 with syndicates instead of red/grey like it always used to be? Ausops' reasoning for going darker was quite literally just it has more potential for spriting' or something stupid. If you guys want better looking grey armor, I can get better looking grey armor, but the dark armor for default officers is blech as fuck and I have yet to see someone tell me why it's somehow advantageous for our officers to look immensely threating/edgy/stormtrooper/etc besides 'they deserve to look how i want them to since the job is hard' as an explanation from steelpoint when it really isn't, security is extremely easy as far as learning curve goes, we just have complications with administration and policy enforcement a lot of the time leading to the job being OOCly stressful.

Besides this, it still isn't really a good reason for why we added the sprites in the first place other than the fact that they had a lot of detail(most of this support for these sprites when they were initially added was for the fact that they had more shader/texture detail than the old poop sprites, not for the fact that they had a dark pallete).

Let's not forget about how the ausops sprites were literally fucking awfully fat before I fixed them, several times. And how they used to make you look egg headed. And how the SWAT/riot helmet used the old sprites. And how ian used to use old sprites. Or how security officer's jumpsuits had this widly different shade of red compared to warden/HoS and it wasn't consistent at all.

It's shit like this that means things should never have been merged in the first place. Put some fucking effort into it if you really want to make sec look edgy.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:18 pm #50694

Wyzack wrote:What would possibly get this reverted if a massive negative poll result is not enough to prevent it happening in the first place?

^ seriously

Post by **MisterPerson** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:45 pm #50723

Steelpoint wrote:I do think we should make the Beret the standard issue headgear either sprite direction we go, helmets already spawn inside Officers lockers meaning its no trouble for them to get their helmet if they want at round start, and I genuinely think the Beret+Armour looks more appealing than the Helmet+Armour outside of more combat scenarios.

So essentially Officers can carry their helmets in their backpack and put them on when a bad situation occurs.

Everyone would just wear the helmet. Example: Engineers wearing yellow gloves even when they spawned with black ones on.

Now an armored beret, that would be cool.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:22 pm #50759

So this still got added. What was the point of this poll again?

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:26 pm #50761

To conclusively prove that the coderbus doesn't give a flying fuck what the players think.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:12 pm #50770

^seriously

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:34 am #50792

If the Beret had the same armour values as a Helmet then there would be no problem?

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:23 am #50805

Pap collectively hurts the sever more than he really tries to make it good by forcing upon us changes that were never asked for.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:49 am #50817

I'm fine with the current unarmored beret (it's a fucking beret), the recent change to make bowman headsets give flashbang protection like a helmet was very nice. Removing the minor armor on jumpsuits made armorless, casual sec less fun though. It's one of those minor issues, that is super hard to get reverted, because when you try argue it, you basically get told to deal with it, and stop making a fuss because it's not a big deal. The problem however, is if it's not a big deal, why it needs to be changed.

Focusing bonuses into less items for balane reasons is also bollocks, all it does is buff non sec who have armor, in comparison to sec with armor, same with the other jumpsuits. Adding the jumpsuit's armor to the base stats of armor/the other vests further just highlight that issue. Also an actual practical reason, armor only covers the chest, not the arms and legs. So acid will be able to melt you harder without an armored jumpsuit.

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:16 am #50823

lumipharon wrote:Focusing bonuses into less items for balane reasons is also bollocks, all it does is buff non sec who have armor, in comparison to sec with armor, same with the other jumpsuits. Adding the jumpsuit's armor to the base stats of armor/the other vests further just highlight that issue. Also an actual practical reason, armor only covers the chest, not the arms and legs. So acid will be able to melt you harder without an armored jumpsuit.

Didn't we JUST nerf polyacid because it was too good of a murder tool?

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:18 am #50824

It still is. Off topic from this thread, but the issue with poly spray is/was that it hits every part of your body. Please get a little spray bottle in real life and spray someone's entire body in a single squirt.

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:36 am #50840

As it stands, I personally believe security looks a little too tacticool. I mean, a lot of people are under the impression that Sec is nothing but mall cops in space, a lot of other people are under the impression that they are actual cops in space. Neither perspective is really in agreement with the decked out helmet/mask combo, MOLLE webbing on the vests, and shin pads that Sec has now. As it stands, they look more like SWAT or other high risk officers than regular beat officers. I guess its a matter of fluff perspective, but I think they just look a little tooled up as they are.

That being said, I still like our current sprites better, mainly due to the detail of the new ones over the plain and dated looking old sprites. The only thing I would change now are the colors, which I believe should be more in-line with the old color scheme of soft red and grey over blood red and black. Lightening the colors a tad should make them look a bit less high-speed-low-drag.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:08 am #50850

ThatSlyFox wrote:So this still got added. What was the point of this poll again?

Nothing, this is why I didn't make a poll and told steelpoint it would be a waste of time if people didn't actually express their arguments in the PR or on #coderbus. I believe polls are fairly stupid and a waste of time, I only make them when they're for fun discussions rather than actually deciding things. The only times I've made polls to decide things is when I've been told to, IE the assistant maint poll that scaredy told me to make.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:06 am #50873

It would not be hard to fluff up an excuse as to why the Security Beret's offer Helmet levels of protection, similar to the Head of Security's Beret or the Death Squad Officers Beret. In this scenario we should argue that the Officers Beret simply uses Reinforced Fabric to give a very robust level of protection to its wearer.

The biggest, and in my opinion the best, argument in this sprite change debacle is that the sprites on offer make Sec Officers look to intimidating, or more accuratly they look to aggressive too early in the round. It does not matter if we use ausops sprites or paprika's sprites as they both portray the same image (hence why I want to revert to the subjectively superior ausops sprites)

However, as I've showncased many times in this thread, the Beret+Armour is a far more attractive clothing set, and is far less threatening from the get go. I think if we simply remove the Jumpsuits kneepads and make the Beret the default headgear, that would solve the biggest issue people have with Sec Armour in my opinion.

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:06 am #50874

ALL THE ARGUMENTS HERE ARE INVALID BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH I READ THEM THEY WEREN'T ON THE PR OR THE SHIT IRC CHANNEL YA DINGOS

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:35 am #50893

No, all arguments here are invalid because they're fucking terrible.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:49 am #50922

I've put up a compromise PR in the hope of generating more discussion on the issue with coderbus, link here: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6395

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:36 pm #50977

Violaceus wrote:
paprika wrote:No, all arguments here are invalid because they're fucking terrible.
lol

Your arguments are invalid.

Because I say so.

even violaceus knows you're being a prick, paprika
jesus

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:18 pm #51037

danno wrote:
Violaceus wrote:
paprika wrote:No, all arguments here are invalid because they're fucking terrible.
lol

Your arguments are invalid.

Because I say so.
even violaceus knows you're being a prick, paprika
jesus

"All comments about a poll on sprite changes (a matter of opinion) are terrible. Your opinions are terrible, because they aren't facts, in relation to a PR based on style opinion."

"My opinion is better than your opinion."

It's not like we haven't heard this before from Paprika, though.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:14 pm

So if there's a thread about a change on the forums with 75 fucking percent of the people who voted on it saying that they don't like it, merging it is a extremely obnoxious thing to do.

I mean it'd be one thing if the coder hadn't seen the thread until after the change got merged and they were like "Oh shit sorry I didn't see that there, I'll just revert this until we come to an agreement or something"-- no. Paprika clearly saw this and ignored a 3-1 vote against him and got this merged.

Literally couldn't be disregarding the player's input and what they want any harder.

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:31 pm #51055

Violaceus wrote:So paprikan change was merged.

Why?

Is there a bigger "fuck you" that coders can show to community?

I can't think of one, no.

The fact that people still call /tg/ code a "community effort" makes me laugh. It hasn't been a community effort in a long time. The project is always ruled over by one or two egotistical manchildren who obviously know best for the unwashed masses.

They know that the vast majority of people don't like the change. They just don't care. Let that sink in, they are working on this game for their own personal enjoyment and nobody else.

Its this kind of behavior that made me take a break from space station 13. I'm sad to see that this leadership style is still so prevalent.

danno · Post by **danno** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:12 am #51105

^ seriously. seriously. what else is there to even say

Spacezenegger · Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:42 am

I personally like the older sprites, I think security looks too militarized. I thought we always wanted to avoid that.

That being said this is not cool:

paprika wrote:
ThatSlyFox wrote:So this still got added. What was the point of this poll again?
Nothing, this is why I didn't make a poll and told steelpoint it would be a waste of time if people didn't actually express their arguments in the PR or on #coderbus. I believe polls are fairly stupid and a waste of time, I only make them when they're for fun discussions rather than actually deciding things. The only times I've made polls to decide things is when I've been told to, IE the assistant maint poll that scaredy told me to make.

Why do we have to express ourselves in #coderbus or in the PR? What are the feedback forums for, what are the poll threads for? Some of us can't AFK in #coderbus all day to talk about the latest coder mishap and not everyone knows how/wants to make a Github account to discuss a PR. Again, what are the forums for?

paprika wrote:No, all arguments here are invalid because they're fucking terrible.

This is becoming a typical coder response to when the players don't like their addition to the game.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:10 am #51126

You have to express yourself in #coderbus or IRC because this place has recently become a den of shitposting and whining and I'm not saying hard for me to discern anti paprika shitposting from legitimate opinions but honestly I've stopped reading most posts here.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:18 am #51131

Spacezenegger wrote: I think security looks too militarized. I thought we always wanted to avoid that.

Also you answered your own question here as to why my changes to the sprites got merged:

Because we don't want sercurity to look like fucking shock trooper thought police, it leaves a bad assumption for new players.

Yes, ausops sprites are more detailed, I'm not blind. But not only is overdetail a problem and clashes with the aesthetic of the game but they look like absolute garbo on the bartender/HoP. Steelpoint got them merged because they were simply a lot better and the detail was insane, so basically nobody argued against them being added on that fact alone.

HOWEVER, the people who did argue against it brought up COMPLETELY legitimate points about how the dark new armor would make sec look more and more militarized and would be a slippery slope to where the community would just accept this as /tg/'s status quo for security.

This is not a good thing, and people will dislike it because they hate change, but I'm gutting this security nazi boner from security because it's fucking disgusting.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:08 am #51175

People's opinion of Security has never change in the two years I've been around here. Once again, its very easy for us to create a armour subtype to give to the bartender/HoP if that's a issue.

The beret is a well liked sprite which makes sec officers more approachable, your sprites don't fix that as all it does is swap out the sprites for a less detailed version that changes nothing.

Here's what Security Officers would look like in my current PR.

danno · Post by **danno** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:35 am #51180

paprika wrote:You have to express yourself in #coderbus or IRC because this place has recently become a den of shitposting and whining and I'm not saying hard for me to discern anti paprika shitposting from legitimate opinions but honestly I've stopped reading most posts here.

how are you surprised that people don't like you when you choose to ignore legitimate feedback out of paranoia and propagate more hate of yourself

This is the feedback section of the /tg/station forums
it's for feedback for /tg/station features
it's just as valid as the IRC or github

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:51 am #51183

Says who, again?

I'm pretty sure I can choose to take feedback from wherever the hell I want, and due to the post quality here, I don't think it's unreasonable to prefer or outright ignore sources that aren't directly related to the project or places I hang out often like #coderbus.

Steelpoint wrote:your sprites don't fix that as all it does is swap out the sprites for a less detailed version that changes nothing.

Which is why i made this PR, which updates the detail of the old sprites to be nearly 1:1 with ausops sprites.
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6406

All I'm saying is don't act surprised when the people in charge of the codebase review a PR based on the arguments presented in the PR and not forum polls, but that would probably mean putting effort into rationally thinking about these changes rather than comparing two numbers on the forums which could have been affected by a number of things. It's baffling people try to discredit the poll I made for assistant maint access and then present this like it's concrete proof the community 100% prefers shitty dark military armor rather than our old grey/red scheme.

deputi · Post by **deputi** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:57 am #51187

paprika wrote:No, all arguments here are invalid because they're fucking terrible.

Yea, why don't you guys take a hint from paprika and learn how to make VALID ARGUMENTS!

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:04 am #51190

If this place has become too "toxic" for feedback, than you should be yelling at the board moderators to clean it up, not us for sharing our opinions. I'm more than willing to bet that if everyone in this thread made a github account and posted their opinions on github, you would complain that github is too toxic for proper feedback too and that now github opinions were invalid because they aren't posted on the IRC.

Besides, the Corporate Security sprites from the imageboard are the best replacements I've seen so far. Even if they do have a little inspiration from outside sources. Except for the formal coat shown, which looks pretty goofy.

Nienhaus · Post by **Nienhaus** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:05 am #51191

Okay I need to know who made those because those are awesome.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:10 am #51192

Those sprites look familiar? Are they wearing armour or is that just a jumpsuit?

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:13 am #51193

Steelpoint wrote:Those sprites look familiar? Are they wearing armour or is that just a jumpsuit?

Its armor and a jumpsuit. They look familiar because they are heavily inspired by Sarif Security from DE:HR.

Edit: And before anyone gets any ideas, these are not mine. I'm not nearly this good at spriting.

Nienhaus · Post by **Nienhaus** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:24 am #51194

Who are you mystery man!

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:43 am #51195

deputi wrote:
paprika wrote:No, all arguments here are invalid because they're fucking terrible.
Yea, why don't you guys take a hint from paprika and learn how to make VALID ARGUMENTS!

>ignoring the context of this post

Nice cherrypicking dude, you're one of the best I've seen

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:19 am #51207

Oh man, those corporate Security sprites look kickass.

Post by **Thunder11** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:32 am #51209

I'd wear those any day.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:41 am #51215

I'll add them to replace the formal sprites I added recently since they look way better.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:54 am #51217

Did a in game look and this is what a default spawning Security Officer would look like, one with a Beret and the Warden (HoS Armour is bugged for me so I could not show that)

I'm a bit iffy on them, they don't look distinctly like a Security Officer with no real identifiable colour/department marking aside from the beret. Also there is little colour difference between a Sec Officer, Warden and the Head of Security aside from a few pixels and the head ware.

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:01 am #51218

Ya, they look kinda funky in game. Maybe if the red were a little brighter, the red band went up the sleeves a little more, and the tie was a little more pronounced. In other words, maybe it needs more red.

Also, don't forget a backpack. All the screenshots we've seen show them without the distinct Sec backpack.

RogerWilco · Post by **RogerWilco** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:30 am #51229

Oh paprika, if there's a 74% vote against using these shitty sprites, DO NOT GET THEM FUCKING MERGED

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:33 am #51230

I actually really like the uniforms. You could make the tan a really faded out red if it has to be like that, and the tie the original tan color.

If the security armor will becomes it's own thing, then something like printing 'SECURITY' on the back would be nice for those who use the satchel backpacks.

danno · Post by **danno** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:49 pm #51270

paprika wrote:Says who, again?

what is this even supposed to mean

RogerWilco wrote:Oh paprika, if there's a 74% vote against using these shitty sprites, DO NOT GET THEM FUCKING MERGED

^ seriously

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:43 pm #51288

I've also given the HoP/Bartender pap's armour sprites.

Beretcurity 2014?

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:27 pm #51344

Pap when you basically forego what the players say then the players hate you. Then you say a player poll means nothing when it's against you entirely. You're being a massive fucking tool because a number of people who make up the daily player base are saying don't merge it. Then it ends up getting merged despite overall hate for it.

Spacezenegger · Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:10 am

danno wrote:
paprika wrote:You have to express yourself in #coderbus or IRC because this place has recently become a den of shitposting and whining and I'm not saying hard for me to discern anti paprika shitposting from legitimate opinions but honestly I've stopped reading most posts here.
how are you surprised that people don't like you when you choose to ignore legitimate feedback out of paranoia and propagate more hate of yourself

This is the feedback section of the /tg/station forums
it's for feedback for /tg/station features
it's just as valid as the IRC or github

#coderbus and github aren't exactly better when it comes to shitposting and whining.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:58 am #51595

My sprite revert/beret addition was recently merged: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6395

Thanks everyone! I'll look at some minor armour changes soon, such as letting cargo order in papriak's armour sprites instead of Sec's sprites.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:19 am #51597

Damn I was really hoping that the checkerboard armor would be gone forever, not to mention that I was looking forward to the new formal sec suits and the TACTICOOL armor ruins them. In fact, the formal suits PR https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6409 has been tagged with merge conflict.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:22 am #51598

That's what happens when many people are altering the same files, shame there's no easy way to avoid merge conflicts.

Currently the Bartender and the Head of Personal will both get paprika's armour sprite alternative, I'm also considering replacing the armour cargo get's with pap's sprites as well. This would show a better difference between Security's armour and Civilian armour.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:32 am #51602

What if you replace the armors in sec lockers with pap's armor, spawning/latejoining officers get ausops armor. This way we can still keep the formal suits, officers can swap their tacticool armor with the less threatening one to go along with the formal suit, and at the same time civilians who get job-replaced to security get the civilian armor from the lockers so it's instantly obvious they're "rookies".

Which sprites do you prefer?