[NecromancerAnne] DeeDubya - completely mishandled

[deedubya]

Byond account and character name: DeeDubya

Banning admin: NecromancerAnne

Ban type: Server

Ban reason and length: "Ban baiting" 1 day

Time ban was placed: 11:48PM PST, round 116464

Server you were playing when banned: Sybil

Your side of the story: I was playing as an assistant, just wandering around pointlessly. At some point early in the round, a door was opened into chemistry, and I walked in and said something like "Hey docs I need some medical attention". Nothing was stolen, nothing was broken, nobody was harmed, nobody was interfered with. Feel free to check the logs, I didn't do a single thing apart from walk into an open door, and was in the department for all of 5-10 seconds. At which point, Hugh Mann wordlessly tables me, then splashes chemicals on me. He also disarm spams the other chemist who attempted to put me out and heal me during this process. As a result, I die. There was no escalation whatsoever, and I made sure he didn't have the antag moodlet before I ahelped. He then proceeded to strip my body of clothes and PDA, then made no attempt to heal or clone me, despite being an instigator of a lethal conflict. The other chemist was finally able to get my body out, and heal/defib it. When I finally came to, I reentered the area to demand my possessions back, at which point the incident repeated itself. This time, I attempted to defend myself when he attempted to murder me again, but obviously I had no chance with zero equipment on me versus a validhunting chemist. Since I had received no response from the previous ahelp, I proceeded to repeat myself. At which point I was accused of "ban baiting" and threatened with a day ban, despite being a victim of a blatant Rule 1 violation. I attempted to explain the above to the admin handling my case, yet they refused to listen to reason, or review the logs to see that I was completely in the right. They then applied the day ban, shutting down all hope of reasonable communication.

Why you think you should be unbanned: It's blatantly obvious that I broke absolutely no rules here, and instead was a victim of someone else breaking the rules. The ahelp I sent was legitimate, and not "ban baiting" as I was accused of doing. For reference: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Rule_1_Precedents.

1: Random murders are not acceptable nor is the killing of other players for poor or little reasoning such as ‘My character is insane’. Each unjustified kill is normally met with one 24 ban.
5: Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security.
6: You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety.

To reiterate: I walked into an open door(not a break-in), touched nothing and nobody(not being disruptive), and was wordlessly murdered(no attempt to eject or verbally ask to leave, with no escalation whatsoever). The department that was trespassed into was not a secure area worthy of immediate round removal. The other person, despite being a clear instigator of lethal conflict twice over, made no attempt to return me to the round during either incident. Despite being 100% in the right to ahelp the incident, I was accused of doing so in bad faith and given a note and a ban for doing so. The note needs to be removed, the ban needs to be lifted, and the player of Hugh Mann needs to receive a 48 hour ban for killing innocents twice as a non-antag. I'm frankly disappointed that an admin that usually shows good judgement would make such a poor set of decisions in this incident. I have to assume the admin was either acting in bad faith or on false information. Given that admins have access to combat logs, I'm forced to assume it was done in bad faith and thus post an appeal here for a more level-headed admin to respond to. As an aside, if no justice is served here, I'll remember that the handling of workplace trespassing has changed, and will proceed to wordlessly murder anyone that trespasses into any department I work in, no questions asked. If that's the lesson I am to learn from being banned for what should have been a legitimate ahelp, then that will be the lesson I learn. Hopefully, more level heads prevail and that's not the lesson that winds up being imparted.

addendum: I'd also appreciate if this were to be considered an admin complain on top of a ban appeal, because this type of conduct is completely unacceptable. Please inform me if I should copy-paste the post in admin complains, or if it will be considered in this topic instead.

[NecromancerAnne]

So initially I was handling the situation as a legitimate ahelp. One thing I regret having not done here was contact you to let you know I was investigating the matter and talking with the people I mentioned. I did feel like they had mishandled the intrusion in a bad way and that I was explaining to the chemists what they should have done and how best to approach it. Now, I talked with both chemists and both actually spoke as though they were defending their work place which made sense when I actually looked into the logs. You thought it was only Hugh that attacked you, but it wasn't. Because it wasn't Hugh that splashed you with the CLF3. It was the person who healed you.

[2019-08-19 06:29:04.260] ATTACK: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) has splashed Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) with Chlorine Trifluoride (80), (NEWHP: 92.5) (Chemistry (101, 102, 2))

Mana and Hugh both participated in this and did escalate to violence but since both were involved and someone healed you it was more worth talking to them about proper escalation and defense of their workplace, which was ALMOST done properly. They were too hasty to move onto lethal methods of removal and I was in fact talking with them about this. They seemed receptive and they were also pretty new, so they probably didn't realize that you need to ask people to leave and to remove people nonlethally before trying to move to lethal methods.

But as I was explaining the cases in which that is warranted you came back in again after popping out of cryo and the fight started again. This might be because I didn't contact you and you might have felt you weren't being listened too but the second time is legitimately when you forfeit the chance of being recovered or ahelping. While jumping to crit is a bit extreme, someone in that department healed you. A few steps were missed but this is close enough to standard escalation to have been marginally legitimate.

In fact when I sent both of them the outline on what to properly do, you came in again, the fight happened, and Mana said something to the effects of 'oh, so what they just did is justification to both not only crit them but kill them and leave them dead'. And yes, they were right. It is fine for them to have done that. The problem is no longer theirs, it's yours.

I would have, given the chance, come back to you with what I had discussed with them about and what we could do to resolve it. You chose to escalate it further, got in AGAIN, and got dunked before I could and then had the audacity to ahelp at that point. Even if you DIDN'T ahelp the first time, ahelping after the second attempt is still somewhat banbaity. Your first instance, sure, it was legit. It was fine. You weren't banned for that and that's a miscommunication on my part. The second time is when you pushed your luck.

If you intrude into departments you run the risk of getting into an altercation. You have windows you can go too in order to talk with the chemists inside if you need things. Just walking into their department isn't going to fly.

In addition to that I'm not sure why you felt you needed medical attention either, you were at full health when the fight broke out.

[deedubya]

Alright, so let's go over this point by point. First off, you're right in that I was not aware that both chemists were complicit. That still doesn't excuse their extremely horrid behavior, nor the fact that I was left in the dark up until the moment I was accused of ahelping in bad faith. Even a simple "looking into it" would have sufficed to dispel the situation. You seriously have no idea how difficult it is trying to explain these things without sounding like a smug asshole who's trying to tell you how to do your job. It's also not even close to marginally legitimate escalation. All the rulings and precedents are clear on this, you're not allowed to immediately resort to lethals in any situation that isn't trespassing in a high risk area, or responding to lethal escalation. Once again, I walked through an open door. No hacking. No breaking windows. Did not steal anything. Did not physically interact with anybody present. Said one line of innocent text. Was tabled and murdered, then the ahelp was seemingly ignored.

The only even mild culpability I'll own up to is the second entry, but even that's pushing it. The first time, I was just in there saying words. They'd have been in their right to attempt to non-harmfully eject me, rather than table and splash combustible liquid on me. The second time, I was in there for a legitimate reason. My gear was stolen by them while I was knocked out dead by their hands, and I demanded my belongings back. Once again, I did not make any attempt to escalate the situation to lethals, and only retaliated with such when I was once again splashed with the chemicals. In fact, if anything, I was well within my rights to immediately escalate to lethals as soon as I entered and remove them from the round permanently, yet I chose not to. I was wordlessly murdered for extremely mild trespass, had my belongings stolen, and was once again murdered when I attempted to retrieve my belongings. This is in absolutely no way ban bait. Their conduct was completely and wholly unacceptable, and I made it very, very clear to you what the situation was at the time. You then attempted to turn it on me to imply that I was doing it in bad faith and proceeded to punish me for being a victim of self-antagging and over-escalation twice in a row, when all I wanted was for a very clear rule breaker to be dealt with. Not an unreasonable expectation in my eyes.

I should also refute this claim that the chemists responsible were "new". No new player is going to be robust enough to know to table splash someone, much less immediately resort to that sort of tactic immediately with no warning. Those are the tactics of experienced validhunters, not genuinely new players. If you were willing to assume I was acting in bad faith, why did you not do the same for people that were clearly breaking server rules, knew exactly what they were doing and how to do it, and were clearly hungry for valids? The double standard used here is appalling.

I'll be changing the ban request to 24h for both of the offenders in question, and still want the note removed. I'll also take it as precedent that if anyone walks into any department I am in twice for any reason - legitimate or not - that they are now considered valid, and will act accordingly. If that's the precedent you wish to set, that's how I'll treat situations from here on out. I make it a personal habit to not repeat the same mistake twice.

In addition to that I'm not sure why you felt you needed medical attention either, you were at full health when the fight broke out.

addendum: "Fight" is definitely the wrong term here. There was no fight. There was a wordless murder. I didn't instigate or even fight back. Also, while not entirely related to the issue at hand, I intended to airtank suicide there and leave the server. I usually wander into medical or the HoPline and say something silly to that effect before I do so. But as soon as they so blatantly broke RoE in front of me, I at least had to do my due diligence as a member and report that dumb shit.

[teepeepee]

posting precedent from this ban appeal

...It was still bad to crit Caroline as she barely trespassed...

the emphasis is mine
as we can see from this precedent, critting for "barely" tresspassing is not seen well, at least by headmin standards
one could assume that killing is even worse in that regard
when the quality of the tresspassing makes it so you can't escalate further than a certain point, one could wonder if the chemists killing the tider isn't the true instigation of this conflict, without mentioning the fact that they withheld his belongings, another thing that could be considered instigating a new conflict with the player

[NecromancerAnne]

Well that ban also had some involvement wih previous actions from the player and a history of overescalation, where as the player who pushed the altercation into lethal violence had no relevant history, though Hugh did and I was in the process of speaking with him about the matter because more than likely had Deedubya not tried to retaliate I would have seen fit to carry out further action about it.

I do not agree that these are two separate altercations, both the trespass and the theft. I do however agree that it was an extreme reaction to kill them in the first place. I WAS in the process of resolving that.

But when you choose to take a matter into your own hands you also need to accept that what comes after that is what happens. You are somewhat forfeiting help from an administrator. To then ahelp it because you lost that fight is almost certainly not something to encourage.

That said I do think I need to mull over this a bit more and that appeal does have relevance.

Also, and this is specifically to Deedubya, I don't believe your own ban appeal or anywhere for that matter is the most sensible place to start making ban requests. Don't do it. And furthermore if you think any of this gives you justification to simply kill people that enter your department you most likely missed the bit where I said that they were in the wrong to do that and I was handling your ahelp to tell them not to do that in the future. We often give people enough opportunity to recognize their mistakes and don't usually ban on first offense unless it's very serious, the player definitely should know better or they simply refuse to speak to us administratively. Since I was mid dialogue when you chose to further escalate how on earth am I supposed to help you or help them understand their mistakes?

[deedubya]

There's nowhere else to make such a request. This is less a ban appeal, and more a request for the ruling on the entire scenario to be reviewed and handled in what I feel would be a proper manner - including the ban and note I received.

To reiterate one of my key points(and something you admitted to), I had zero indication that an admin was even looking into the matter until after I had made my second ahelp. The cooldown on ahelp hadn't expired until after I had been healed, and I even attempted to find IC solutions. I informed the captain of the wrongdoing. I asked the doctors where my equipment was. Only then did I resort to re-entering the department and demanding my stolen gear back from the chemist I assumed responsible, at which point I was turned into valid salad. At this point, my ahelp was finally off cooldown, and I am beyond heated at this point because I can clearly see two admins online and my first ahelp had not received a reply.(yes, I am aware admins are not necessarily obligated to respond to ahelps, but it is an expectation from the playerbase that they are at least acknowledged if done in good faith) At which point, I sent the second ahelp stating that the situation had just repeated itself and I still had not seen any attempt at admin intervention. Does me sending a second ahelp suddenly mean that the perpetrators did not clearly break the server rules? Absolutely not, and this was my main motive in repeating the ahelp a second time. Can it be argued that I was technically valid for the second death? Sure, you could argue that, but you chose not to. You instead chose to assume that I acted in bad faith in the entire situation, and did not extend that same assumption to the instigators of the over-escalated conflict in the first place. Are you starting to see why I'm upset with your conduct here? This isn't exactly the first time I've dealt with you where you've automatically assumed bad faith on my part and proceeded to shut down any manner of negotiation. It makes this quote in particular ring very hollow in my ears.

We often give people enough opportunity to recognize their mistakes and don't usually ban on first offense unless it's very serious

There's also something I hadn't considered about the situation that seems fishy to me now that I have a cooler(and less sober) head: Now that I know that both chemists were involved, I'm starting to suspect metacomms had a play here. I'm not accusing you of it in any way, but the two chemists present. The way they wordlessly acted in such perfect unison seems extremely suspect to me with the knowledge that it wasn't simply the act of one person. I was wordlessly tabled by Hugh Mann, at which point Mana Sayuri instantly and wordlessly splashes the chemicals onto me nearly the same instant that I was tabled. It seems far too coordinated to be mere coincidence. Again, I'm not sure where else I'm supposed to raise this concern, and it is somewhat related to the situation at hand.

Finally, I just want to address the last bit about me using this as justification for repeating the incident. What else am I supposed to do apart from take an admin's ruling as legitimate precedent? If an admin has ruled that the act of non-harmfully trespassing in a non-secure department more than once makes you valid, why should I not treat all future cases as such? It seems completely ridiculous to assume that I should be held to a different standard than the rest of the playerbase.

[NecromancerAnne]

This thread isn't going anywhere and discussing this with you is like speaking to a slab of concrete.

I'm pretty sure you're not actually reading what I'm saying or deliberately being selective in what you're engaging with so that you can use it as justification for randomly killing people who enter your department. I am going to tell you now that this is far, far from the case. They were in the wrong for having done this. This ban isn't as a result of you having been killed and healed without warning, but it is what you've chosen to focus on in the entirety of this matter so I'll be forthcoming and say maybe, MAYBE I might have taken administrative action against someone, and almost certainly pushed for the return of you stuff.

Sometimes we forget things while busy investigating and a courtesy gesture of informing ahelping parties that we're investigating is usually standard. I forgot. I was already log diving and talking with them about proper escalation when you chose to use direct confrontation to resolve the matter.

I'll be clear. Reinstigating a fight like that is simply accepting you're choosing to forgo our help regardless of whether or not we are investigating the matter. You lost that chance at administrative assistance even if the initial ahelp was for valid concerns for overescalation. This doesn't matter whether we addressed you or not. You just lose that privilege.

You are constantly looking to use this ban appeal as a way to push some kind of blanket statement and precendent about workplace escalation and it makes me fairly certain this is some kind opportunistic attempt by you to get a pass for poor escalation. There is already a ban appeal thread that has established this precedent and that hasn't changedwith this one.

You cannot randomly murder people for entering your department briefly.

This has not changed, this ban does not change that and what they did was not acceptable. But given how you've acted in this thread you honestly seem to me to be a horridly poor actor and someone looking for loopholes to try and get away with bad behaviour. Attempts at rules lawyering or pandering for the establishment of new precedents on threat of unbanning, or the banning of other actors is, quite crudely, being a massive toxic cunt.

I'll not be removing the note and will instead amend it further after this thread to clarify that given the resulting appeal you may attempt to use it as justification for poor escalation in similar scenarios, and that any attempts from you to act upon that are to be considered extremely seriously.

All that you have said thus far is proof to me that you are going to act upon it, so I think it fair on future admins that they are aware of your intentions. And to you that you know what will happen if you attempt to escalate like this yourself.

[Hulkamania]

As NecromancerAnne has already admitted, they should've informed you earlier the matter was being looked in to. That is the end of where their fault as an administrator comes into play. Not only did you take it upon yourself to continue the fight after you were cloned, you continued to blame them in ahelps for doing so despite the fact that you were the one who pushed the issue further.

The more you as a player try to take matters into your own hands in an IC fashion, the less you have options for in an OOC administrative context. This was not an instance of you defending yourself then ahelping afterwards because you lost, but rather you intentionally instigating further conflict with the chemists on your own terms.

If you truly thought they were in the wrong in the situation, it's best to wait for the administrator to apply before trying to enact vigilante justice on them. You can also pursue other IC means such as contacting any available security presence in the meantime.

I will also reiterate that this is not the place for a ban request, nor is anywhere else on the forum. The administrator in question examined the situation and found neither of them to be worthy of a ban, and that's their right as an administrator to make a call on. This appeal, as NecromancerAnne has already stated, is denied and I will be locking the thread.