2k19 /pol/ - European Spring edition

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:34 pm #497413

Bottom post of the previous page:

I don't mean it's complicated to work out you twit, I mean it's more complicated in a "Oh goody I'm getting a pay rise. Oh shit, most of that rise got gobbled up by the tax man" sense.

You'll see what I mean once you stop being a student and start working a proper job.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:46 pm #497429

Malkevin wrote:I don't mean it's complicated to work out you twit, I mean it's more complicated in a "Oh goody I'm getting a pay rise. Oh shit, most of that rise got gobbled up by the tax man" sense.

You'll see what I mean once you stop being a student and start working a proper job.

This is true of any sort of graduated tax system. The concept is that poor people can "afford" to pay less and richer people can "afford" to pay more. It also operates on the concept that the government is both better able and entitled to determine the best use of money that otherwise would be mine. This leads to extreme cases where tax rates on the exceptionally wealthy are supported because "they wouldn't notice it being gone anyway" or "they don't really need another <luxury item of the moment here>." So really it just becomes the same social policy loop. I have no problem with joint contributions by the population into services and systems needed to keep life moving along for all of us in a shared country. I do have problems with how those contributions are framed as some moral obligation wherein the government is treated as always the best choice for administering those services by mere nature of being the government. I also have issues with the concept that if I cross a certain line of wealth acquisition I instantly have "enough" by somebody else's standards and that they become immediately entitled to the excess of that amount because they do not have it or have not acquired it by other means than mere assertion.

Rustledjimm · Post by **Rustledjimm** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:01 pm #497432

Malk thinks I've not worked a job.

Amusing. Considering I spent 6 years working before I started my current studies.

The only people whose pay raises get mostly gobbled up in tax are those already living comfortably or better and it's not over 50%. You don't stop earning more money with a pay raise no matter how much you make.

And your literal words were 'stupidly complex' if that isn't a synonym for complicated to you then I question if you got an English GCSE too.

While I understand cedars position and argument at least I disagree on certain parts. I'm on my phone in an airport and don't have much time to respond.

Super Aggro Crag · Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:08 pm

It makes me laugh that British people say maths instead of math. I'm glad that our countries have such differences it makes the world a more vibrant place.

FantasticFwoosh · Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:22 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote:It makes me laugh that British people say maths instead of math. I'm glad that our countries have such differences it makes the world a more vibrant place.

It takes many colours of blue to make a harbour portrait.

Lumbermancer · Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:48 pm

In defence of British English, it's more flavourful than the analogue.

FantasticFwoosh · Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:27 pm

Per person there are more people who speak Spanish in America than any variety of English, perro Americano

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:14 pm #500987

Today a Dutch ship manned by a German NGO with 40 migrants on board forced the blockade set up by our government against foreign migrant-carrying ships. The captain, a German 30-year old girl, made the decision after lingering for 2 weeks just outside territorial waters waiting for a green light that never came. The ship was immediately intercepted by a border patrol vessel but they ignored the warnings and headed straight for the nearest port (Lampedusa). It eventually stopped outside the harbour and the migrants will probably be offloaded during the night. Salvini said he holds the German and Dutch governments responsible for what happened and will send the migrants to them (I don't know if this is even possible).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48769840

Super Aggro Crag · Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:02 pm

Grazyn wrote:Today a Dutch ship manned by a German NGO with 40 migrants on board forced the blockade set up by our government against foreign migrant-carrying ships. The captain, a German 30-year old girl, made the decision after lingering for 2 weeks just outside territorial waters waiting for a green light that never came. The ship was immediately intercepted by a border patrol vessel but they ignored the warnings and headed straight for the nearest port (Lampedusa). It eventually stopped outside the harbour and the migrants will probably be offloaded during the night. Salvini said he holds the German and Dutch governments responsible for what happened and will send the migrants to them (I don't know if this is even possible).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48769840

fuck u gonna do about it mario

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:19 pm #501004

The crew will be imprisoned, obviously, and the ship impounded. The migrants, who knows.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:49 pm #501021

Reminder that Aussies know the correct way to deal with self authoritative NGOs (fire a shot across their bow)

HommandoSA · Post by **HommandoSA** » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:23 am #501052

Malkevin wrote:Reminder that Aussies know the correct way to deal with self authoritative NGOs (fire a shot across their bow)

A warning shot is not an intimidating consequence of facilitating the invasion of your own country.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:51 am #501090

Salvini knows he'll never hear the end of it if he opens fire on an unarmed civilian vessel. He's currently considering 2 options to retaliate against Europe

Option 1: suspend Schengen and reintroduce border controls. This means long lines at the borders, which combined with the imminent vacation season and heat wave will cause untold misery and suffering to any foreign national trying to enter the country by car.

Option 2: stop identification and detention of asylum seekers arriving in Italy, defying the Dublin Regulation which requires illegal migrants to apply for asylum in the first EU country they enter. The Regulation is the reason why Italy is currently a country-sized migrant camp for the rest of Europe, defying it will cause migrants to spill out and reach any other country they want, definitely something that will rustle some German and French jimmies.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:23 am #501341

It's very simple
Treat this shit like organized crime, because that's exactly what it is
The entire crew+migrants can go sit in jail until they're willing to sell out the people smugglers and NGO managers that are organizing to break laws, then go after those
They're all responsible for doing it, so keep them locked up until the case is resolved
After that immediate deportation to their home countries with a note to their local gov that they're part of an organized crime organization

You don't need to fire at them, just treat them exactly as the law demands and after maybe two or three such cases they'll all stop coming
Or more likely they'll just go to Spain, where the government welcomes them and then gleefully sends all those shits on to the rest of the EU

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:14 am #501387

Update: tonight the captain decided to rush the harbour (the ship has been sitting a mile away from the coast for the last couple days), a coast guard boat attempted to stop it from docking but was almost crushed against the dock (video)
The captain was arrested and the migrants disembarked.
Fun fact, a couple socdem MPs were on board during the whole ordeal (they spent the night on it in sleeping bags), they said they tried to convince the captain against this but she said she couldn't wait any longer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48809134

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:54 am #501391

So who will feed her cats whilst she's in jail?

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:16 am #501466

All of them, into jail
That's not just the usual crimes, that's an attempted manslaughter of everyone on the coast guard boat too
Migrants too, they're responsible for funding this shit- That's what they pay the smugglers for

I just hope the government there has enough sense to make it happen

Screemonster · Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:39 am

> "rescued" them off the coast of libya
> "our only choice was to take them to a completely different coast to the one where we picked them up from and then wait for a fucking fortnight demanding they let us in"

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:16 am #501488

Salvini is calling it an act of war.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48809134

This is not ending well for her. She's saying that she acted out of necessity because some migrants were about to commit suicide.

Takeguru · Post by **Takeguru** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:01 pm #501533

Sounds like the Sea Watch group should be fined the cost of all actions needed to keep her ship out of the Italian port, and everything involved in the arrest, if they support her so much

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:15 pm #501558

Also the article isn't entirely correct, yes it was a police launch but it was the customs police, which is a branch of the military, thus making it a warship by definition. So the captain is being charged with "attempted sinking of a warship" which is a much more serious crime. Combined with all the other laws she broke, she's gonna need a very good lawyer to get out of this.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:57 am #501626

[youtube]TbIc1LZqIAw[/youtube]

Takeguru · Post by **Takeguru** » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:54 am #501639

I also don't seem to understand why she didn't just make for the port of another country?
She chose a very weird hill to end her life on

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:30 am #501640

Takeguru wrote:I also don't seem to understand why she didn't just make for the port of another country?
She chose a very weird hill to end her life on

Long answer: Sea Watch says that, according to international maritime law (which Italy ratified), people rescued at sea must be taken to the nearest safe port, which in this case was Lampedusa (Libya isn't safe, Tunisia is eeeh, and Malta was further away than Lampedusa). This isn't optional, it's the duty of every captain, so Carola (the girl captain) was doing her duty, and Italy was illegaly trying to stop her from doing so. Other EU countries also considered Italy the nearest port of choice so they wouldn't let the ship come to them.

Short answer: No other country wanted the migrants

Actual answer: It isn't proven, but it's almost common knowledge that human traffickers make contact with NGO ships to organize easier transfer of migrants. They tow a dinghy full of people a few miles off the Libyan coast until they spot the ship, then they cut the line and let them sit there for pickup. The migrants pay the traffickers, and the traffickers pay a share to the NGO. The payment is for transfer to Italy, not to France, Spain or other countries, so the NGO has to dock in Italy or lose the money. That's because traffickers are also paid by Italian organized crime because migrants are their main workforce (drug dealing, prostitution etc.) and they want their package delivered to Italy. Last thing, migrants themselves want to land in Italy because it's easier to become refugees here (or at least, it was before recent reforms by Salvini, but I guess news take some time to reach the deepest parts of Africa). This doesn't mean that Italy is their final destination (it usually isn't), but they need refugee status to move freely around Europe until they settle in Germany, Sweden or wherever they want to go. Spain and France, for example, are much harsher on asylum seeker. Spain literally throws them in jail while they wait for their papers.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:12 pm #501775

Grazyn wrote: Actual answer: It isn't proven, but it's almost common knowledge that human traffickers make contact with NGO ships to organize easier transfer of migrants. They tow a dinghy full of people a few miles off the Libyan coast until they spot the ship, then they cut the line and let them sit there for pickup. The migrants pay the traffickers, and the traffickers pay a share to the NGO.

[youtube]TbIc1LZqIAw[/youtube]

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:52 pm #501782

Malkevin wrote:
Grazyn wrote: Actual answer: It isn't proven, but it's almost common knowledge that human traffickers make contact with NGO ships to organize easier transfer of migrants. They tow a dinghy full of people a few miles off the Libyan coast until they spot the ship, then they cut the line and let them sit there for pickup. The migrants pay the traffickers, and the traffickers pay a share to the NGO.
[youtube]TbIc1LZqIAw[/youtube]

Interesting enough, it was the socdem government who put a stop to it (too litte, too late) in the summer of 2017, by paying Libyan authorities to enforce an exclusion zone for NGOs around their coast. It's funny to see data from June-July-August, with arrivals suddenly dropping as soon as the deal was signed

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:05 pm #501808

She's free.

The sea captain who rammed a German aid group’s rescue ship into an Italian police boat while trying to bring 40 migrants ashore should be freed from house arrest, a judge in Sicily ruled Tuesday night.
Italian state TV said Judge Alessandra Vella concluded that Rackete was “doing her duty saving lives.”
Nonprofit group Sea-Watch tweeted “Our #Carola is free” after the state broadcaster reported the ruling.

https://apnews.com/427f84d7494e439f8f698c33b46d672a

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:06 am #501840

>Sicily

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:02 am #501866

Just goes to show that judges do not deal in justice
or perhaps Italy still has a corruption issue

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:15 am #503639

Eh, the legal situation is complex, maritime law is like that, and the fact that the gals personal politics probably played a role doesn't mean that rescuing people lost at sea is now illegal

the U.S has a similar legal situation with pacs

They're both dealing with acausal trade- two parties predicting what the others want and acting accordingly for mutual benefit, even though they can't legally communicate directly. Presents a ton of problems, but how do you outlaw it without setting hazardous precedents?

also immigrants are cool and good

InsaneHyena · Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:03 pm

Speaking of justice, so how about that Epstein fellow?

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:13 am #507174

https://thehardtimes.net/harddrive/agen ... wKDnFy8dd8

There's also that russian incident that may or may not be nuclear
They say it wasn't but they also said that everyone in the area should take iodine pills and were out checking for radiation

Screemonster · Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:02 am

if there's an explosion at a place that contains nuclear material it doesn't have to be a nuclear explosion to get isotopes and shit everywhere

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:29 pm #507695

XSI wrote:https://thehardtimes.net/harddrive/agen ... wKDnFy8dd8

There's also that russian incident that may or may not be nuclear
They say it wasn't but they also said that everyone in the area should take iodine pills and were out checking for radiation

What incident?

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:32 pm #507696

Accident at a military base
Some nuclear material was damaged in an explosion, but the explosion itself was not nuclear
In the end nothing to be worried about, unless you happen to live in the area

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:36 am #507715

InsaneHyena wrote:Speaking of justice, so how about that Epstein fellow?

Does one look crazy by actively wonder if he was murdered?

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:07 am #507722

It was a suicide. While on suicide watch. Right after his cell mate was moved out. And the guards were told not to show up because of 'cell maintenance'
At this point you look crazy if you think it was actually a suicide

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:41 pm #507782

Here's a very interesting interview with his bodyguard.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/ ... -boss.html

My favourite part:

Super Aggro Crag · Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:57 am

poltics is gay

having opinons is basically suckin a dick

just stop being lame

Takeguru · Post by **Takeguru** » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:47 am #507973

So autopsy says several bones in his neck are broken
The hyoid makes sense, if it was a proper hanging, but in a prison cell there's nothing on the ceiling to hang from, so you either do it sitting from something or you prop yourself, neither of which are all that likely to break the hyoid as the forces involved are lessened, let alone other bones in the neck

If this doesn't scream murder, I dunno what to tell you

Lumbermancer · Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:22 pm

holy shit brits you are totally fucked

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:14 pm #512546

That is nothing new however
Have they been not fucked at any point in the last few decades?

Super Aggro Crag · Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:45 am

Did germany invade England again

Lumbermancer · Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:12 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote:Did germany invade England again

Here's the abridged version of the event for you.

[youtube]PbW6bu32tMA[/youtube]

Screemonster · Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:55 am

when the "abridged" version is six fucking hours long you know it's a fun time for all

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:16 pm #512681

Italy is no longer far-right. Salvini's nationalists left the government and a new coalition was formed between the populist Five Stars and the socdems. So the government went from national-populist to social-populist. We'll see how it goes...

Super Aggro Crag · Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:21 pm

More migrants

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:09 pm #512689

You say that as if that hasn't been happening anyway

Super Aggro Crag · Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:20 pm

MORE
MIGRANTS
NOWNOWNOWNOWNOW

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:44 am #512874

The government was sworn in yesterday morning. Literally the first thing they did was challenge a regional law that was supposed to help deporting illegals.

FantasticFwoosh · Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:13 am

Providing the Queen provided ascent for the law being put to her today, the prime minister is deploying a Blackadder'esque "cunning plan" to supply a additional letter to the EU explaining why "rogue parliment's" propopsition to extend is a bad idea and to make them reconsider. Else the EU will flat out refuse a extension (with a little traction from Macron, but he's notably all bark no bite with fresh yellow vest riots on his hands) and we head for no-deal anyway.

I think there will be riots at this rate if the UK isn't too sleepy, especially outside of London. Gotta draft dodge that EU army at all costs before we join Vietnam 3.