Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

[ATHATH]

Provided that they don't destroy the armory's contents or hide/bring them outside of the armory, I don't see why wardens shouldn't be allowed to set up appropriate armory defenses roundstart.

But apparently, moving the contents of the armory into the two lockers that are already in the armory and then bolting those two lockers (and the HoS's locker, which I also moved to the armory) to the ground so they can't be yoinked by someone with a jetpack is "metagaming". What are we, an HRP server?

[leibniz]

It's unfair and bad for the game, like building a super elaborate nuke disk defence thingie even when it's not war ops, or roundstart carding the AI, or randomimplanting all you can, or confiscating PDAs randomly, or calling the shuttle ASAP.

Yes, MLG strats exist if you want to wank your tiny dick to redtexting antags but these behaviors turn the game into a competetive objective hunt, it's boring and it's shit.

[Ispiria]

these behaviors turn the game into a competetive objective hunt, it's boring and it's shit.

I'd love to add something to this so it's not an emptyquote but leibniz has summarized so perfectly that there's really nothing to add. Powergaming to extreme levels can be done, but ruins the game for everyone else when it is.

[skoglol]

Part of what makes the game work is that we don't always play perfectly, and actually let things that aren't great for us personally happen. If all we do is ensure that there are no holes anyone can use to create conflict, its going to get boring real fast. Not securing armory additionally might seem like a small part in itself, but it is part of a bigger picture where we allow for that conflict to come into existence. Without conflict, we may as well just turn off secret and go fulltime extended.

Wardens/HOS' that block off all maint access to brig may also kindly go fuck themselves.

[NoxVS]

Alternatively it feels like the brig is intentionally poorly defended just to give carebear - I mean traitors an easy chance to raid it. The armory is so unsecure and one guy can easily just steal it all. It’s not that sec doesn’t want conflict, it’s that the enemy already has enough firepower to dunk you without the entire armory in their backpack.

[oranges]

you're correct, it's by design, but we're not intending to change it at this time.

[Dr_bee]

The no locker rule was also made before you could break the most secure lockers with a piece of glass, rod and wires. Putting the armory in the lockers can actually end up fucking you as they can just wrench it and run off to space.

I still dont get why antags need any sort of protection from non-antags in the rules outside of maybe fucking over atmos so rogue AI's cant use it roundstart. It is honestly within reason for a warden, whos job it is to secure the armory, to do things to secure the armory.

NoxVS is right, you are babying antags and denying creative play by wardens. And most antags dont even NEED to rob the armory to get a whole fucking arsenal thanks to the crutch that are TCs and ling powers.

[Malkraz]

posting in an 80th repost thread

[Gigapuddi420]

I still dont get why antags need any sort of protection from non-antags in the rules outside of maybe fucking over atmos so rogue AI's cant use it roundstart.

This is the strangest take. 'We don't need to baby antags, except in this case where we do.'

[Jimmius]

here's a powerful brained take from me:
if you put the armory in a locker like a bitch nerd, someone will raid the armory and see there are no guns, and walk off.
but if you leave it where it is, they will try to steal all the guns, so you can get into a cool fight with the free valid that literally walked into the brig.

[wesoda25]

I think its a kinda lame precedent because usually thats what makes warden fun for me. I like to try and re-design brig into a more efficient layout, do stuff like that. All I usually do for the armory is put a reinforced directional window frame along the inside, is this really so bad?

[teepeepee]

is this even enforced? at the timezone I play on bagil every round a warden will fuck with the armory in some way, with one of them(won't snitch) consistently dumping the whole thing into the secure evidence closet

[Dax Dupont]

is this even enforced? at the timezone I play on bagil every round a warden will fuck with the armory in some way, with one of them(won't snitch) consistently dumping the whole thing into the secure evidence closet

It's hard to notice if people don't ahelp it or you're watching them do it.

[capn_monkeypaw]

is this even enforced? at the timezone I play on bagil every round a warden will fuck with the armory in some way, with one of them(won't snitch) consistently dumping the whole thing into the secure evidence closet

It's enforced all the time.

[capn_monkeypaw]

There are a hundred different ways the station could be made more secure.

Have you noticed how every department has an out-of-the-way back entrance through maint? Hell, even the captain's office with all of its high-risk items has a second entrance connected to a little cameraless maint hallway.

What, are these Nanotrasen architects stupid?

Hey, why doesn't tech storage have r-walls on all four sides?

What an insane oversight.

All these stations lost to malf AI plasma fires and yet Nanotrasen STILL installs digital pumps and valves in atmos that can be remotely controlled by silicons!

Why, those people at Central must be downright stupid.

Nah, these are intentional game design choices.

Antags need the station to have exploitable flaws, otherwise the game we're all playing doesn't work. Some are more obvious than others but all require planning, timing and luck in order to be useful.

When you mitigate these flaws at roundstart - without knowledge of a specific threat to justify it - you're effectively performing IC actions using OOC metaknowledge to change the parameters of the game.

Specific to your situtaion, Athath: it's lame enough to locker the contents of the armory. Adding in the HoS' locker means that you've now metasecured two high-risk items inside your sec fort, which is doubly lame

Plus, there's no need to turbo-secure the armory as a Warden anyway because you're never supposed to leave the brig in the first place. ( )

Your job is to maintain security records, process prisoners and hand out guns as necessary.

Crushing the greentext dreams of antags should not be a primary motivator, ya dig?

In short,

you put the armory in a locker like a bitch nerd

[Kenteko]

There is a fine line between extreme metagaming (mass implanting to check for revo rounds) versus careful paranoia (fortifying the brig) and I think the difference is in the ultimate goal. If you mass implant and force holy water before a call, you run the chance of destroying a stealth version of those runs due to simple game mechanics which, in turn, makes it metagaming. Bunkering an armory, on the other hand, is something that makes sense from an IC perspective and is not in any way something that is metagaming oriented. If anything, it gives the warden something to do akin to an engine setup and forces antagonists to react accordingly. The same can be said ab out disk protection engines: After all, everyone aboard knows of the importance of the disk.

From a strictly performance perspective, the desk view for the warden on meta blows goats. This is very clearly by design, but everything is just enough in range that you can see the potential but not the truth. It wouldn't be untoward for a poorly staffed sec group to want to consolidate their environment for efficiency and protection. Nothing in the armory is even a high risk value outside of the vest that would merit metagaming, and any decent warden would probably just wear the vest itself. Plus, the vest is likely just going to get stocked wherever the guns go. Likewise, this would require a bit of work to restructure the brig and may actually cause harm in the long run like if, say, a blob were to show up and they suddenly need weapons and the warden is missing/dead.

Armory and department fortification should be fine and encouraged, IMHO. Some engineers love doing this and will actively do it in their own department, but for some reason it's bad for security because...?

[Shaps-cloud]

If you can't tell the difference between the armory and the yellow glove storage room I'm surprised you even managed to point your web browser to this site successfully

[bandit]

This isn't a binary thing. There are degrees of securing the armory, and right now I do think wardens are a bit overly restrictive. The armory is supposed to be one of the most difficult areas of the station to breach and/or steal from.

[teepeepee]

It's enforced all the time.

not night/late night bagil, it would seem

[capn_monkeypaw]

I feel like a lot of you are forgetting that the armory is already fortified with r-walls, motion-sensing cameras and his Lord and Highness, Armsky of the Stunalots.

...and that you have a semiauto shotgun and egun in your locker.

...and you know fucking krav maga.

...and you need...more?

...at roundstart?

...lacking knowledge of any specific threat to the armory?

[Kenteko]

I feel like a lot of you are forgetting that the armory is already fortified with r-walls, motion-sensing cameras and his Lord and Highness, Armsky of the Stunalots.

...and that you have a semiauto shotgun and egun in your locker.

...and you know fucking krav maga.

...and you need...more?

...at roundstart?

...lacking knowledge of any specific threat to the armory?

R walls are breached by an X4/C4 that is easy to acquire. Were they double stacked walls this would require more resources or allow wardens to react. Once the armory is breached from space, which is near trivial, a warden must now face space walking armed individuals and unable to get at their own armory. Unless their suit storage is right next to them, the time it takes to respond is enough to lose positional advantage. That's not even including if someone blows the outside, flies in, grabs the barrier grenade, and stuffs it in front of the door. At this point, all you can do is pray that Armsky saves the day, because you sure as hell aren't.

Krav Maga loses to almost any gun + space.

[Shaps-cloud]

Krav Maga loses to gun + space yes that's why you also have your shotgun and eguns.

There are 2 doors into the armory and windows you can shoot out if both are blocked

C4 is literally designed to do this one specific thing of course it's good at breaching

It honestly sounds like you won't be happy unless every single possible way for the warden to fuck up and lose is removed. Double fucking r-walls for the armory? You're a lunatic

[wesoda25]

I feel like a lot of you are forgetting that the armory is already fortified with r-walls, motion-sensing cameras and his Lord and Highness, Armsky of the Stunalots.

...and that you have a semiauto shotgun and egun in your locker.

...and you know fucking krav maga.

...and you need...more?

...at roundstart?

...lacking knowledge of any specific threat to the armory?

blue alert

[pointlesswaste]

the armory being the way it is, is an intentional choice so that the antags have a chance. antags are a necessary role (and one of the most difficult roles) that exists to provide fun for everyone in the round. if someone metagames to make an antag's plans significantly more difficult, it makes the antag that much more likely to say "fuck it" and just murderbone.

if the antags have interesting options in the round, they will often take them. if all options except "kill my way to victory" are closed off, they will try to kill their way to victory.

why not avoid validhunting (which makes the shift into a greenshift) and metagamey protection of assets (which makes the antag pissed off and want to murderbone)?

a lot of people complain that antags arent creative enough with their methods and only murderbone, but often those same people take every step imaginable to close off all non-murderbone antag actions.

[elyina]

Warden and HoS should have free reign to customize their department how they want. Any other department can do this. The only restriction I think is necessary is not being allowed to take the guns physically out from the armory without probable cause. Being in a locker or safe or whatever else is fine, just as long as it's physically inside the armory. If a warden actually wants to take the time and effort to reinforce and customize it, why not? A traitor looking to break in there should adapt to the round instead of expecting everything to be the same every time and crying to an admin when an unexpected challenge is presented to them.

[Plapatin]

change the channel theyre playing reruns

[oranges]

elyina promoting sec hugbox?

no suprises there

[teepeepee]

Double fucking r-walls for the armory? You're a lunatic

cerestation(rip) had them

[CPTANT]

Double fucking r-walls for the armory? You're a lunatic

cerestation(rip) had them

Doesn't really change much. If you can get past 1 rwall you can get past 2.

[Kenteko]

Krav Maga loses to gun + space yes that's why you also have your shotgun and eguns.

There are 2 doors into the armory and windows you can shoot out if both are blocked

C4 is literally designed to do this one specific thing of course it's good at breaching

It honestly sounds like you won't be happy unless every single possible way for the warden to fuck up and lose is removed. Double fucking r-walls for the armory? You're a lunatic

Shotguns have hilarious spread and cannot shoot through windows. Your one choice is the egun, and while you're shooting from one of the windows (the other is likely blocked by the portable flashes or the officer clothes crate) the traitor that blew the wall has now taken your shotgun ammo, a good chunk of your guns, and probably the barrier grenade. If he gets the barrier grenade, it's game over and you just lost the entire armory. This is shown every single time with pirates without failure, and everyone knows when pirates have shown up.

As for double R walls, AI sats are pathetically easy to breach and those have actual defenses. Two X4s and you've taken out the walls to the SMES, and probably damaged the SMES a hard way. The difference is that this allows the AI, borgs, and the crew to react. There is no realistic circumstance where a warden has the capacity or bandwidth to react from a space armory breach by any antagonist robust enough to not get punked by Armsky.

[Arianya]

Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause.

[elyina]

It's debatable if this would apply to that rule or not. It's also not good to entirely dismiss something because it conflicts with a rule. The rules page isn't the bible, they aren't perfect or always right and what's good for the game. Hence why this subforum exists.

[Kenteko]

Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause.

RAW that means valid hunting is illegal. It obviously isn't. RAW it also means that, taken literally, everyone cannot in any way protect themselves from any action an antagonist can incur. No armoring up since that would hinder an antagonist from killing you. You also cannot pick up any high risk items, including the disk, because that would be hindering any antagonist that needs those.

This is why we use intent, not as written.

RAI it just means don't start doing metagaming things that would obviously cripple or stop certain antagonist. I'd argue that RAI that is intended to cover cultist, revolutionary, and changeling. All of those can easily be determined with next to no impact on the round at no real cost to security. Specifically, go through and feed holy water to everyone, implant everyone, or kill and clone anyone who doesn't resurrect. You can see why intent matters more (the latter also runs into different rule problems).

[knacker48]

Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause.

So then are you allowed to reinforce or otherwise change the armory if you know that they are likely to attack it? For example if its a revs round can the heads fortify the armory to both protect themselves and prevent guns being taken by revs?

[Cobby]

> without reasonable prior cause

if you know it's revs...

Anyways as long as the guns are visible I don't care how you fortify the armory/brig tbh. Hell the worst part isn't even that, it's the flashers at the maint entrances covered by a chair that'll get you.

[Arianya]

It's debatable if this would apply to that rule or not. It's also not good to entirely dismiss something because it conflicts with a rule. The rules page isn't the bible, they aren't perfect or always right and what's good for the game. Hence why this subforum exists.

I was responding to OP who seemed confused as to why he was bwoinked.

RAW that means valid hunting is illegal. It obviously isn't. RAW it also means that, taken literally, everyone cannot in any way protect themselves from any action an antagonist can incur. No armoring up since that would hinder an antagonist from killing you. You also cannot pick up any high risk items, including the disk, because that would be hindering any antagonist that needs those.

This is very elaborate exercise in trying to ignore the part of the rule that says "without reasonable prior cause"

Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause.

So then are you allowed to reinforce or otherwise change the armory if you know that they are likely to attack it? For example if its a revs round can the heads fortify the armory to both protect themselves and prevent guns being taken by revs?

If you have reasonable prior cause (such as known/confirmed revolutionaries on station) it's fair game! Note that code blue/roundstart threat report is not generally regarded as "reasonable" because it happens every round except for announced extended and is non-specific.

[Kenteko]

It's debatable if this would apply to that rule or not. It's also not good to entirely dismiss something because it conflicts with a rule. The rules page isn't the bible, they aren't perfect or always right and what's good for the game. Hence why this subforum exists.

I was responding to OP who seemed confused as to why he was bwoinked.

RAW that means valid hunting is illegal. It obviously isn't. RAW it also means that, taken literally, everyone cannot in any way protect themselves from any action an antagonist can incur. No armoring up since that would hinder an antagonist from killing you. You also cannot pick up any high risk items, including the disk, because that would be hindering any antagonist that needs those.

This is very elaborate exercise in trying to ignore the part of the rule that says "without reasonable prior cause"

Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause.

So then are you allowed to reinforce or otherwise change the armory if you know that they are likely to attack it? For example if its a revs round can the heads fortify the armory to both protect themselves and prevent guns being taken by revs?

If you have reasonable prior cause (such as known/confirmed revolutionaries on station) it's fair game! Note that code blue/roundstart threat report is not generally regarded as "reasonable" because it happens every round except for announced extended and is non-specific.

If Code Blue is not reasonable then putting on body armor of any kind is against the RAW. That is literally the point I made above because you have no idea what threat is ahead. Likewise, wearing sunglasses of any kind is against the RAW because the only tool at the traitor's disposal would be a (hypno)flash.

The rule cannot, at all, be taken in a literal stance by any sane person because if you do, every single round all of sec + QM would get bwoinked for having sunglasses, any doctor that makes med sunglasses would get bwoinked, HoP and Captain would get bwoinked for armor (and sunglasses) and every head would be bwoinked for moving their HR item. RAW is irrelevant unless you're a silicon and I'm pretty sure none of us are. Operate under RAI please.

[Cobby]

Right, basically it means don't take overly extra lengths to preemptively btfo antags. I would argue hiding weapons FNR does that hence why I just enforce them to be visible but still permit changes to brig/armory.

[Yakumo_Chen]

No

[leibniz]

It's debatable if this would apply to that rule or not. It's also not good to entirely dismiss something because it conflicts with a rule. The rules page isn't the bible, they aren't perfect or always right and what's good for the game. Hence why this subforum exists.

I was responding to OP who seemed confused as to why he was bwoinked.

RAW that means valid hunting is illegal. It obviously isn't. RAW it also means that, taken literally, everyone cannot in any way protect themselves from any action an antagonist can incur. No armoring up since that would hinder an antagonist from killing you. You also cannot pick up any high risk items, including the disk, because that would be hindering any antagonist that needs those.

This is very elaborate exercise in trying to ignore the part of the rule that says "without reasonable prior cause"

Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause.

So then are you allowed to reinforce or otherwise change the armory if you know that they are likely to attack it? For example if its a revs round can the heads fortify the armory to both protect themselves and prevent guns being taken by revs?

If you have reasonable prior cause (such as known/confirmed revolutionaries on station) it's fair game! Note that code blue/roundstart threat report is not generally regarded as "reasonable" because it happens every round except for announced extended and is non-specific.

If Code Blue is not reasonable then putting on body armor of any kind is against the RAW. That is literally the point I made above because you have no idea what threat is ahead. Likewise, wearing sunglasses of any kind is against the RAW because the only tool at the traitor's disposal would be a (hypno)flash.

The rule cannot, at all, be taken in a literal stance by any sane person because if you do, every single round all of sec + QM would get bwoinked for having sunglasses, any doctor that makes med sunglasses would get bwoinked, HoP and Captain would get bwoinked for armor (and sunglasses) and every head would be bwoinked for moving their HR item. RAW is irrelevant unless you're a silicon and I'm pretty sure none of us are. Operate under RAI please.

Putting on your equipment is normal, not even sure what you are trying to say here or what's the point of inventing these ridiculous scenarios.

[Kenteko]

Putting on your equipment is normal, not even sure what you are trying to say here or what's the point of inventing these ridiculous scenarios.

I know sarcasm doesn't transfer to text, but the entire point is that taking rules verbatim as written is a folly at best and stupidity at worst. If we took the posted rule literally, doing almost anything that would better yourself would be (inadvertently) hindering an antagonist. This is why we use intent and why posting the rules and declaring them law is just silly. Cobby's interpretation is very likely more akin to what is being discussed here, i.e. the spirit of the law.

[leibniz]

Putting on your equipment is normal, not even sure what you are trying to say here or what's the point of inventing these ridiculous scenarios.

I know sarcasm doesn't transfer to text, but the entire point is that taking rules verbatim as written is a folly at best and stupidity at worst. If we took the posted rule literally, doing almost anything that would better yourself would be (inadvertently) hindering an antagonist. This is why we use intent and why posting the rules and declaring them law is just silly. Cobby's interpretation is very likely more akin to what is being discussed here, i.e. the spirit of the law.

I see.
From what I remember "dont prepare against threats when there is no sign of that threat" was enforced because of the metagaming rule, but I might remember wrong. The exact wording of the meta rule is more focused on stuff like skyping, but in tabletop RPGs meta mostly refers to stuff like reading the monster manual and knowing everything about the enemies in the campaign.

[Eaglendia]

I don't really understand what the deal is, personally. The game has changed mechanically since the policy was made and it's hard to say how necessary something that can argumentatively seem so arbitrarily restrictive really is. There aren't many cases where I'd seriously bwoink someone over customizing or adapting the layout of the brig. I'll usually put barriers up or move things off the back wall if there are reports of suspicious activity in space, and the Warden's door remote basically exists for the express purpose of keeping Security doors that aren't in use bolted.

There's a job that's basically responsible for protecting the armory and given the tools to do so. The only time you'd ever realistically run into trouble is if you're high-rolling Warden and roundstart setting up your maximum powergame redtext loadout every round for literally no reason. As is the case with most things in this game, it's fun to see how far you can push the limits of what's possible and how efficiently you can get a system to perform; conversely, there's a point at which overdoing it cheapens the experience for everyone involved. Optimistically, a strong player knows intuitively where this line is, or is willing to appeal to admins to inform their actions (assuming said admins actually agree on what the server policy should be) if they don't.

[Arianya]

Armour is a bad example because armour is a roundstart, equipped item for security so there's nothing "pre-emptive" about it on the players part.

[Karp]

It's enforced all the time.

not night/late night bagil, it would seem

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 52#p489924

adminhelp it so it gets enforced this was during late night bagil

[NoxVS]

I don’t get why wardens can’t just wait for the entire armory to be stolen before they reinforce it

[Denton]

Each armory starts with rwalls, motion-sensitive cameras inside and outside, as well as Armsky on most maps.
Then you have a dedicated job for protecting it that starts with a compact shotgun, krav maga gloves, as well as the whole armory itself.

Honestly if more wardens stayed inside and protected the armory instead of valid hunting, there would be far fewer robberies.

[NoxVS]

Each armory starts with rwalls, motion-sensitive cameras inside and outside, as well as Armsky on most maps.
Then you have a dedicated job for protecting it that starts with a compact shotgun, krav maga gloves, as well as the whole armory itself.

Honestly if more wardens stayed inside and protected the armory instead of valid hunting, there would be far fewer robberies.

I don’t think sec actually gets alerted when camera alarms are set off. The rwalls can be destroyed with ease with C4, thermite, a sonic jackhammer, a hulk, etc. Armsky won’t stop them from picking up a gun which can then be used to destroy the last line of defense the armory has. On some maps I don’t think the warden can even see into the armory

[Skillywatt]

wardens bolting doors and using strategic barricades on blue shifts is fine. thats exactly what I'd expect a "warden" to do in-charge of lethal weaponry with "suspected threats". I actually consider a warden a shitter if they dont at least do this.

a bloo bloo bloo tiders and antags have to use a multitool to pulse the bolts up a bloo bloo bloo

taking all the guns and locking them up outside of the armory is dumb and powergaming unless its warops (like removing the digital plasma pump without confirmed silicon shenanigans)

[WarbossLincoln]

I don’t think sec actually gets alerted when camera alarms are set off.

Sec doesn't get alerted when the alarms go off but the AI does. If you're Asimov you should absolutely be clicking the link to jump to any armory motion alarms and informing sec if someone is breaking in so they can react. A decent AI should be able to tell Sec and Sec should be able to be inside the armory grabbing guns and ready to shoot before the antag gets in. Maybe not if he has a sonic jackhammer. Most of the problems are when the warden and AI are sleeping on the job. Last time I got to play AI the armory got robbed 3 times by 3 separate people and sec didn't bother responding to any of them. The warden was off valid hunting tiders or something.

The rwalls can be destroyed with ease with C4, thermite, a sonic jackhammer, a hulk, etc. Armsky won’t stop them from picking up a gun which can then be used to destroy the last line of defense the armory has.

So a traitor geared up with specific breaching tools, or got himself Hulk, so that he could break into the armory. He's probably also prepared to have a fight with the Warden and his compact combat shotgun that's probably loaded with slugs. You want to cock block a prepared antag before he's even had a chance to check his uplink to see what toys he gets a discount on?