/tg/station P&P Night

[Timbrewolf]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Dezz you know you can disagree with someone without saying their perspective/opinion/whatever is "powerfully fucking stupid". I'm not going to bother to read any more of what you just wrote.

Let's not turn another thread into a sperg-y argument between the two of us.

[dezzmont]

Ok, let me put it another way:

I am not interested in this thread turning into your soapbox for poorly grounded opinions about how a game who's premise you clearly didn't understand in the first place is going to suck.

If you want to run a street level journalism game or whatever, go ahead. I don't really care. I don't like you popping in going "Actually dezzmont this wont work and will be terribly unfun" and then acting incredulous when I point out you said something amazingly fucking stupid while shitting on someone else's parade.

[Timbrewolf]

Pointing out some of the difficulties of running a game like that and making some suggestions based on how I've overcome them in the past is now shitting on someone's parade.

Do I need to repeat for you, or point out to anyone else, how fucking ridiculous your ego coupled with your insecurity can be to deal with?

[dezzmont]

Let me put it like this an0n3.

You think the way I want to run this sucks?

Fine, PM me about it or make a small post on it.

When I adress that concern and try to tell everyone the game is still going to be cool, but you don't agree?

You could do a few things. You could PM me about them, you could decide not to play, or maybe just bite your tounge.

What isn't cool is trying to make me disagreeing on your unsolicited opinion into a thing. You are acting like I am just freaking out over nothing but I sincerely do not care to be told twice about how I am doing it wrong when you have very strange ideas about how characters work and only superficially addressed my response to it.

From my position, you are trying to pick a fight with me over something I am trying to do for people on the threads and absolutely do not care what I say to defend it. It was incredibly passive aggressive. Think about it, do you enjoy it when someone comes in and starts giving an unsolicited opinion about something you are doing? And then will not even acknowledge what you say to assure them you have it under control? It is sitcom mother in law material, it is a universally unwelcome experience to have someone critique you and then refuse to start a legitimate dialouge.

So now I am telling you to your face. Back off, and self evaluate. You are not in a position to lecture me about undue aggression. This whole experience just got ridiculously awkward and unpleasant and I regret bringing the idea up.

Or to put it another way, if you really thought I was getting irrationally upset for personal reasons the fact you are now trying to goad me in 2 sentence personal attacks is shitty behavior and I am almost positive you would know that would just escalate the situation even more. Which is why I don't think you are acting like someone who's opinions I should respect at all currently. You are not an easy person to deal with yourself but I am not going to try to drag personal stuff out of your closet to prove it.

[Timbrewolf]

I don't care for you blowing up in my face and taking all this shit as a personal insult when I was just relating personal experiences with the same kind of game and some stuff to look out for/ways to deal with it.

You're injecting weird implications like "...and if you don't do it the way I did it you're stupid/it's doomed" when I never said anything like that. I don't like having people stuff words in my mouth and then trying to act like a victim.

I'm not trying to pick fights over the way you want to run the game, you're the one who veered this whole conversation into "NO YOU'RE FUCKING STUPID" territory.

Let me put it this way:

I didn't say my way was the only way. I never had the thought that your game was going to be doomed or that you were somehow going to do it wrong. I've been looking forward to hearing how that game develops and what kinds of characters people bring to it. I'm angry mostly because I'm startled to come back to this conversation chain and hear you treating suggestions and past experiences as personal insults.

[nsos]

lean by the bottle
goop by the bottle
who go full throttle
boof by the bag boy its sad boy

[Maccus]

So now I am telling you to your face. Back off, and self evaluate. You are not in a position to lecture me about undue aggression.

Because you're the expert on undue aggression, right?

[miggles]

holy shit shut the fuck up dezzmont you fucking autist
you cant acknowledge the fact that someone has been playing a game longer than you have been alive and then say everything they know about it is wrong and you're better than them
how much of an ego do you have to have before you can do that, then proceed to call them "powerfully stupid" (as well as gratuitous amounts of other insults) and on top of THAT, play the victim card?
no, nobody is shitting on your fucking parade. you brought this on yourself. nowhere before you started talking down on an0n3 did he or anyone else insult you or your ideas.
you know who needs to back off and self evaluate? you. take a look at how petty you're being and for once, try not being an egomaniacal lunatic.
screw whatever i said about joining your game. i should have known earlier that having DEZZMONT as the GM would be a big problem.

[InThePooPoo]

holy fuck drama
go away

[ExplosiveCrate]

Holy shit everyone shut the fuck up and stop arguing

[THE MIGHTY GALVATRON]

So how bout them pen and paper games eh?

There's this one upcoming RPG called End of the World that's about various apocalypse scenarios. Seems like it could be good fun, playing as yourself and watching plans crumble in the face of the unexpected and unplanned.

[Timbrewolf]

Yeah this has become unfun central. We can salvage this. Someone give me an Electronics (B/R) roll.

If you guys are going to do an investigator game can someone play an awakened great dane?



No particular reason.

[miggles]

im gonna run a game of dnd some time, but with a really different setting
5th edition
so yeah

[THE MIGHTY GALVATRON]

im gonna run a game of dnd some time, but with a really different setting
5th edition
so yeah

I don't think I ever looked at the settings for any of the D&D games.

Regardless I'd be down for that. For reals.

[ExplosiveCrate]

I thought the 5th ed DM's handbook hasn't been released yet.

[Maccus]

It hasn't. That doesn't stop people.

[Timbrewolf]

You can play the game with just the Player's handbook if you're a pro-tier badass.

DM's guide comes out 12/9

[Vekter]

Keep it civil in here or I'll start pruning the thread. There are ways to have discourse without throwing ad hominem attacks around.

[nsos]

Now that we got all the knives out r we still doing tomorrow session

[dezzmont]

Depends. I need to take a train home for thanks giving and I may be borderline unconscious due to the all nighter I am pulling now.

[Akkryls]

Shall we call it a week off this week, or schedule it for later in the week(end) so that Dezz isn't dead trying to run it?

[XSI]

It would be nice to hear for sure whether or not were playing today

Besides, if you can't run due to falling asleep, that's going to be a short session

[dezzmont]

Yeah gunna say no game this week.

NSOS you still need to work with me on your sheet.

[nsos]

i would've been surprised if if i didn't need to

[Vekter]

Does mine look good to you dezz?

[dezzmont]

Bit schitzo but completely functional.

Its hard to fuck up when you have 7 edge. The pile of AKs is actually a good choice in this setting because you can store them near running sites in case you cant retrieve them later, as opposed to losing your ares, and because you can ditch them easily.

If you wanted to you could easily make this character a rigger as well by getting gunnery, EWAR, a control rig, and an RCC.

[Vekter]

I actually bought the pile of AKs because I couldn't figure out what I wanted to spend the rest of the nuyen on, and I figured I might as well have some extras in the van for the other Runners.

And I thought about doing a rigger, but I have no experience in it and I recall someone else wanting to do the job.

[Akkryls]

Since we seem to be asking anyway, is my Face up to scratch for what we'll be doing in our sessions? Or am I going to get geeked the moment shit hits the fan?

[XSI]

(...) pile of AKs(...)

[Vekter]

(...) pile of AKs(...)

Well I am the arms dealer.

[XSI]

As the arms dealer, please make sure you actually have the ability to get weaponry, or at least a contact that helps there

Nothing more awkward than the arms dealer calling the fixer and asking to buy a gun from there. Kinda like seeing a rigger on a scooter

[Akkryls]

As the arms dealer, please make sure you actually have the ability to get weaponry, or at least a contact that helps there

Nothing more awkward than the arms dealer calling the fixer and asking to buy a gun from there. Kinda like seeing a rigger on a scooter

I have a 4/2 Armorer contact (Named Hephaestus, since my alias is Zeus)
That help at all? Even if I'm not the assigned party arms dealer.

[XSI]

He'd be able to build guns and repair them, so it does work yeah

He probably can't get any of the shiny stuff though, or lasers

[Akkryls]

He'd be able to build guns and repair them, so it does work yeah

He probably can't get any of the shiny stuff though, or lasers

Well yeah, he's only connection 4. We'd probably need something like connection 7 for lasers.

[dezzmont]

Akkryls your negotiation and etiquette are both rocking like a 14 yeah?

That means you, you personally, without any help from contacts, can generally obtain any item with an aval of 14 without paying extra. For every aval above that you can get a 50/50 chance by paying an extra 25%.

Essentially any time your PC wants he can pick up a laser pistol. For double the listed price he could get a laser rifle, or he could edge.

Contacts are frankly there to teamwor test for you or to get you favors or act as labor for you.

[Akkryls]

Akkryls your negotiation and etiquette are both rocking like a 14 yeah?

That means you, you personally, without any help from contacts, can generally obtain any item with an aval of 14 without paying extra. For every aval above that you can get a 50/50 chance by paying an extra 25%.

Essentially any time your PC wants he can pick up a laser pistol. For double the listed price he could get a laser rifle, or he could edge.

Contacts are frankly there to teamwor test for you or to get you favors or act as labor for you.

Yup, both 14.
So, after payday we can stock up on all the laser weapons ever. Yaaaaay. (I'm not really going to do this, unless other people want me to buy laser weaponry for them)

[XSI]

And here I was thinking you'd buy a red laser pistol to see if the catgirl would chase it

[Timbrewolf]

And here I was thinking you'd buy a red laser pistol to see if the catgirl would chase it

HA!

Rules rules rules. The new limit on attacks per combat turn is nifty, combined with the variable ways you can make that single attack now.

Minor complaint, it doesn't seem like you can just shoot a single round each at two seperate targets with a semi-auto weapon. It's one round or three rounds. The "double-tap" action fires two rounds at a single target. While you can split the attack between two targets you're going to waste that damn third bullet for a measly -1 on your targets defense test. Maybe I'm mistaken and it's an "up to three rounds" action.

Free RC and only one attack per combat turn makes dual wielding pistols or SMG's with Akimbo really robust. With gun mods and decent strength a guy dual wielding SMG's could easily stuff 2x 6 round bursts into people. If they're using special ammo like explosive or (god forbid) APDS rounds that guy is fuuuuuuuuuuuucked.

That's always been the case, but the limit of only one attack per phase pulls a tooth out of everyone not using two weapons...whereas before a guy with an LMG or Assault Rifle could do two kill-bursts per turn now they're stuck taking one attack, splitting it between two targets, and halving their dice pools.

...and while the two-gun guy is ALSO doing that, to make up for it he's adding more bullets to his attacks which in turn hampers his targets defense test that much more. If you can handle the recoil it's clearly the way to go. Twin SMG's are the new hotness in SR5.

[dezzmont]

You can't use multiple attacks to hit the same target more than once, so it doesn't actually increase your lethality versus one target. Furthermore, you seem to be discounting the fact that you need to split your skill pool by 3 to fire that burst at multiple people.

The downside to using two weapons is that you can't use assault rifles, shotguns, or sniper rifles with it, which is problematic because those will generally have more than twice the damage and AP of a heavy pistol, let alone a machine pistol.

An assault rifle will deal roughly 6.33 lethal damage and apply a -2 pain penalty to a target hit to a beat cop, not even using APDS and will almost certainly knock them down. A brainblaster or aimed burst would deal 8.33 or 7.33 respectively before net hits, and you will have more net his than an SMG.

And SMG meanwhile will generally deal 1.66 stun damage to a beat cop. With APDS that gets upgraded to 3 stun damage. 5 if you make a brainblaster with full auto or 4 from an aimed burst.

When you factor in the fact that your skill pool is divided up by the number of shots you take, an automatics pool of 14 is required to consistently hit two officers with an aimed burst each using a machine pistol, with 1 net hit. With an assault rifle that 14 will let you deal an extra 2.33 damage, which will be instantly lethal to a police officer.

Dual wielding gets really strong when you are using pistols, which have a much stronger damage profile than SMGs or machine pistols. Even so the primary benefit of dual wielding is that you can make twice as many called shots a turn.

To hit 12 shots at cops requires a total dicepool of 84. Which is absolutely not happening.

Also the rule is one attack per phase, not per turn. If you get 2 phases in a turn you can shoot twice.

[Vekter]

As the arms dealer, please make sure you actually have the ability to get weaponry, or at least a contact that helps there

Nothing more awkward than the arms dealer calling the fixer and asking to buy a gun from there. Kinda like seeing a rigger on a scooter

I know a guy.

[Timbrewolf]

The "Multi Attack" free action is fucking confusing. One page says it's for use against multiple targets, while the page it's defined on doesn't.

It's your game so your rules Dezz, but hashing this out for my own understanding is tough.

It makes sense that you could take a three round burst and split it up between three separate targets. Total your pool up, including recoil, and then divide it as evenly as possible three ways. Roll each attack. Each person resists and soaks like they got hit by 1 bullet (not a full burst, like some idiots online are suggesting).

(I would also add a house-rule that a person with a pistol using the "semi-auto burst" action can choose to fire two rounds, not having to fire all three)

This gets a liiiiiittle wacky when you start talking about dividing bullets up from 6 and 10 round bursts. I would consult the "not enough bullets" rule and treat each attack against each person appropriately. Again, not allowing someone who is firing a 10 round burst at two people to force both of them to resist an attack like they were targeted by all ten rounds. The player would have to divide the rounds up between the two targets. If you want to shower a group of people with bullets, that's supressing fire Omae.

When it comes to deciding whether you should allow someone to declare multiple attacks against the same person...it gets wacky.

Throwing weapons and melee weapons use the same multi-attack rule as firearms and there's nothing that says you can target the same person twice in the descriptions of their attacks. I'm inclined to believe that the rules are just poorly written and in the text on pg 164 of the core book they're just saying "you can shoot multiple targets" as a suggestion or option and not "you MUST shoot multiple targets".

...but then you have options like:

(pg. 119 Run and Gun)

Code: Select all

AIMED BURST
Complex Action
This is an attack from a Burst Fire-capable weapon
(not Semi-Auto Burst) fired in such a way to increase
damage instead of making it harder to avoid. Since it is
a Complex Action tracking Progressive Recoil becomes
very important. The attack loses the –2 penalty to the
defender but gains +1 DV. It costs the firer three rounds
of ammunition.

And

(pg 120)

Code: Select all

DOUBLE-TAP
Complex Action
A rapid pair of well-aimed shots from a Semi-Automatic-
capable weapon fired in such a way to increase
damage instead of making it harder to avoid. Tracking
Progressive Recoil becomes very important with this
Action. The attack gains +1DV and costs the firer two
rounds of ammunition. There is no penalty to defensive
rolls from this shot.

That lead me to believe NO YOU CANT. As these attacks both represent intentionally aiming better and putting more bullets into the same target...well there ya go.

But this STILL doesn't explain what happens when someone with two guns wants to point them at the same guy. Currently in RAW there's some magnetic force that pushes the guns apart. There's simply no rules for shooting the same target with two guns.

I would posit that it's an oversight, and using the multi-attack free action with guns while dual wielding is the ONLY time you can shoot the same guy twice. Once with each weapon.

[dezzmont]

I am going to allow dual wielding to hit one target twice because A: Against moderate targets like cops it 'merely' puts dual SMGs or heavy pistols on par with assault rifles despite being more expensive cash and karma wise, and B: it makes it so there is every a reason to melee dual wield.

Dual wielding is better than it was in previous editions but still isn't aces. As the game progresses one handed automatics fall off hard, making it so that dual machine pistol wielders really are more about making multiple called shots. Heavy pistols fare much better due to having damage codes generally comparable to assault rifles, but the buy in for dual wielding is still so intense in some ways that I don't mind letting you double down. It isn't like you are ever going to do better than a shotgun, it just lets pistol wielders do cool trickshots and automatic users be a bit more awesome at spray and pray ambushes. And for melee it means that facing down a ninja with two monoblades will be stupidly lethal.

[Timbrewolf]

A melee weapon user doesn't need two separate weapons to do so.

I actually don't think there's any benefit to wielding multiple weapons unless your martial style gives you one.

[dezzmont]

A melee weapon user doesn't need two separate weapons to do so.

I actually don't think there's any benefit to wielding multiple weapons unless your martial style gives you one.

There is no benefit unless the weapons are different, and it is somewhat rare to be engaged in close combat with more than one person anyway unless you are dealing with people who underestimated you or you got lucky on an ambush. Hence my ruling that two weapons let you hit one guy twice. In melee it would fucking destroy people, which is good because specializing in dual wielding melee requires a ton of karma in the form of at least one martial art, high strength, high agility, and a lot of skill due to how melee dodge is higher than ranged dodge. But oh... when you hit someone with two DV 11 AP 3 attacks it is gunna really hurt.

Also the book doesn't make it amazingly clear but throwing weapons can be thrown at the same target with multiple attacks. In fact smartlinked throwing knives or shuriken have a bonus when doing this.

[Timbrewolf]

smartlinked throwing knives or shuriken

how in the fuck would that even work? It's just a sharp piece of metal.

[ExplosiveCrate]

It's a smart piece of metal.

Think it records the flight data and uses it to correct your aim, which is why you get +1 dice after throwing one as long as you or your target don't move.

[dezzmont]

You ever play a videogame where you see a little arc showing you where your grenade would land depending on the angle thrown?

That said it isn't actually a smartlink bonus. Its just a regular ass wireless bonus. You can stack a smartlink on top of it but its stupid expensive to do so.

[Timbrewolf]

New from Renraku, "GENKI SHURIKEN"

"WOW YOU THROW GREAT BIG BRO JUST TRY A LITTLE HARDER NEXT TIME UGUU~"
"WOW YOU THREW THAT KUNAI RIGHT UP HIS DICKHOLE SO SUGOI"

You ever play a videogame where you see a little arc showing you where your grenade would land depending on the angle thrown?

How the fuck is a throwing knife or shuriken suppose to know how hard you're going to throw it? If this was some piece of software installed in a cyberarm that would make sense, but not a throwing weapon.

[dezzmont]

It could probably show you multiple arcs. Its up to you to gauge how much power you need but I used to throw knives in real life, you generally don't huck it as hard as you can, you go for control and I suspect smartlink could easily figure out your general throwing brackets.

Smartlink as a whole makes very little sense, it is an ammo counter and gun cam that somehow makes you shoot more accurately despite the fact its fluffed as just a fancy invisible laser pointer. It allegedly does stuff like correct for wind but that probably isn't significant enough indoors for an extra +1 bonus. Especially because now wind correction is its own function. Lets not get to caught up on this.

[XSI]

Can I smartlink my chainsaw?

[dezzmont]

Smartlink only works on projectile weapons (Bows, throwing knives, grenades, crossbows) and firearms (Grenade launchers, rockets, machine guns, pistols, ect).

Basically anything but melee.