Roundstart Suicide as Antagonist/Wizard

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:58 am #448210

In recent time I've noticed a major trend of Wizard players rushing to commit suicide as fast as possible. This extends usually out of a desire to attain a "top score" for fastest suicide, or out of other desires such as a dislike of the round type.

I believe that round start suiciding as a Wizard, or any antagonist in general, is in poor form to the game and should not be something that people do. The ultimate objective of an antagonist is to drive the events of the round, but by killing themselves before the round has even had a chance to start, they rob the round of any interesting events, waste everyone's time, but they also deny other people the opportunity to take the place of that antagonist that was taken for a bad joke.

(A older Headmin ruling did technically state that round start suiciding as a important role is a bannable offence, though I think that is more in relation to Head of Staff roles, nonetheless I think it is worth mentioning.)

While Antagonists are, under the rules, allowed to do (almost) anything, I nonetheless believe that this act is in poor form and should be heavily discouraged, such as the individual losing their access to that antagonist for a short period, as it does not serve to be conductive to an interesting game.

Karp · Post by **Karp** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:00 pm #448211

lol its hilarious it ends the round who cares would you rather they summon guns/events and instantly die forcing you to play traitors with guns/magic on everyone

if it seems boring it lets you play a new round 3-4 minutes later

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:19 pm #448220

I think its funny and I'm not banning anyone for it. Its not like it affects you in a major way since the round restarts in three minutes or it will mulligan giving you new antags to play against.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:27 pm #448221

There is a genuine effect since the individuals doing it are essentially wasting a antag pick for the same tired joke. I believe it is a genuine issue since its become more frequent, and I personally enjoy the possible chaos or uncertainty in Wizard rounds, which will not occur if the round ends in eight seconds.

BeeSting12 wrote:I think its funny and I'm not banning anyone for it. Its not like it affects you in a major way since the round restarts in three minutes or it will mulligan giving you new antags to play against.

I never suggested to ban people outright from the game who do this, I more proposed that it be discouraged or at worst to temp ban people from a Wizard role for doing it.

Also, the next round is not guaranteed to be a Wizard round, so we lose out on that. For better or worse.

Malkraz · Post by **Malkraz** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:28 pm #448222

Wizard rounds are consistently boring cancer and every one that can be stolen from a virgin murderboner by a chad suicider absolutely should be.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:29 pm #448223

If the issue is Wizard rounds being "boring", then wouldn't it be more conductive to open a discussion on how to make them more enjoyable instead of ignoring the issue and encouraging suicides?

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:31 pm #448224

Summons are cancer but it's spread too far to do anything about it

subject217 · Post by **subject217** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:33 pm #448225

leibniz wrote:Summons are cancer but it's spread too far to do anything about it

All you really have to do is remove the antag spawning from them, or at the very least massively tone down the number of people that it gives antag to.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:34 pm #448226

The mass antag spawning is the bigger issue with the summon spells. It should be far more tamer than it is currently.

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:46 pm #448229

Steelpoint wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:I think its funny and I'm not banning anyone for it. Its not like it affects you in a major way since the round restarts in three minutes or it will mulligan giving you new antags to play against.
I never suggested to ban people outright from the game who do this, I more proposed that it be discouraged or at worst to temp ban people from a Wizard role for doing it.

Also, the next round is not guaranteed to be a Wizard round, so we lose out on that. For better or worse.

I meant I'm not banning people from wizard for it. I'm also not discouraging it since I'd do it if I got wizard.

>lose out on that

lolll wizard is awful so no big loss

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:46 pm #448230

also mass antag spawning should be removed so the round will end when the wizard is dead.

Karp · Post by **Karp** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:53 pm #448233

just make it so they're antags but they aren't counted for holding the round boom i cured cancer Ideas Guy Out

Denton · Post by **Denton** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:54 pm #448234

Steelpoint wrote:There is a genuine effect since the individuals doing it are essentially wasting a antag pick for the same tired joke.

I mean, it's really their loss if they would rather suicide than play a round of turbo murderbone 9000.

Post by **Arianya** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:26 pm #448239

BeeSting12 wrote: >lose out on that

lolll wizard is awful so no big loss

I mean its also our third most popular mode so clearly theres people who disagree with you on that

Karp · Post by **Karp** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:24 pm #448244

what denton said ari

its annoying to fight a wizard but its fun to play as one because you just fuck everyone over with magic

its one versus all and it's fun at doing that but 1v50 can have its issues both ways

Post by **Arianya** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:25 pm #448245

Karp wrote:what denton said ari

its annoying to fight a wizard but its fun to play as one because you just fuck everyone over with magic

its one versus all and it's fun at doing that but 1v50 can have its issues both ways

Considering most people will get 1 wizard round in 100 connections (if that) this still makes it pretty impressive for it to be 3rd.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:26 pm #448247

Off topic but I don't believe I've yet to get Wizard as a round start pick.

On topic, furthering my reasons I feel Wizard is a very hard antag to get picked for, so seeing people piss away the opportunity and denying the role to someone who may enjoy it is a shame.

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:37 pm #448250

I was told by an admin a while back that lone antagonists can do whatever they wish with their antag round, including suicide

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:44 pm #448252

If they don't want to play wizard that much, why not antag ban them from it.

"I don't like playing it but I'll still roll it and waste the pick" sounds like an assholes move.

subject217 · Post by **subject217** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:17 pm #448257

If we're going to antag ban people for being assholes with it I can think of a long, long line of people who deserve it more than suicide wizards.

Screemonster · Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:34 pm

What are the wizard's choices

1: turbo murderboner 9000
2: friendly wizard that gets murdered immediately purely for being valid
3: roleplaying-antag-wizard that makes demands and is willing to negotiate but inevitably someone on the crew tries to valid them, they murder said dipshit, the cry goes out that "the wizard's killing people" and the round immediately devolves into 1, above
4: run a stupid gimmick like spamming events or naming yourself "wizard-shaped comet" and throwing yourself out an airlock

confused rock · Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:50 pm

I think wizard can be fun for the crew if they try, unlike blob one person makes all the difference and you can get a good rush outta landin that syringe. I feel that wizards can’t do anything right, no matter what a wiz does the crew gets annoyed so now when I get wiz I just try to be maximum annoying. I can’t blame people for suicide as wiz because it’s so harmless, just turn off the preference for wiz though if you’re gonna do that. Some people want wizard, and I can understand why some can get mad when a wiz wastes the round. Maybe wiz sucise could give it to anothef ghost? It wouldn’t ruin anyone’s day if wizard suicide was restricted, but on the pther hand some people would appreciate it, so restricting it might be better.

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:16 pm #448314

D&B wrote:If they don't want to play wizard that much, why not antag ban them from it.

"I don't like playing it but I'll still roll it and waste the pick" sounds like an assholes move.

what if you do want to play wizard because you think its funny to suicide

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:28 pm #448329

Screemonster wrote:What are the wizard's choices

1: turbo murderboner 9000
2: friendly wizard that gets murdered immediately purely for being valid
3: roleplaying-antag-wizard that makes demands and is willing to negotiate but inevitably someone on the crew tries to valid them, they murder said dipshit, the cry goes out that "the wizard's killing people" and the round immediately devolves into 1, above
4: run a stupid gimmick like spamming events or naming yourself "wizard-shaped comet" and throwing yourself out an airlock

No one ever tries the reverse murderbone wizard. Summon guns, summon magic, lich, healing staff, recall spell.

You run around ressurecting literally everyone you can so they all keep fighting, LITERALLY EVERYONE, especially the troublemakers. Best way to cause chaos.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:24 pm #448349

tbh I wasn't talking about too many antags

back then
>wizard comes
>he throws fireballs, very dangerous
>crew fights the wizard

now
>wizard doesnt appear
>instead guns and magic shit appears
>everyone starts casting spells but you cant kill them because they are just doing random annoying shit
>doing anything meaningful is impossible
>floor turns to lava
>you get turned into a mushroom
>ghosts appear too and you are bodyswapped into lizard in the dorms
>a stick figure kills you

I guess I am a no fun boomer pleb but to me this is incoherent garbage without any concept to it, when I see summons I instantly lose all interest in the round and it's part of why I stopped playing the whole game

confused rock · Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:27 pm

Leibniz is correct.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:49 pm

If you want to suicide as solo/non team antag I say go nuts. It's kinda rude, but it's not really a big deal.

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:36 pm #448382

I care more about wasting everyone’s time than muh coveted antag.

If you don’t want to play wizard then ask an admin to replace you or fix your preferences. It’s about as interesting as admins rolling their keyboard over buttons, maybe a bit less because the game is just over right after. The ability for antags to be a dick should be reserved for IC interactions.

And for space gods’ sake don’t summon stuff.

Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:43 pm

This is already bannable

Malkraz · Post by **Malkraz** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:12 pm #448404

no it isn't

subject217 · Post by **subject217** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:14 pm #448406

Leibniz is 100% correct. Nothing to do with being an old player, the rituals simply aren't fun.

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:38 pm #448414

Summon magic/guns needs to return to the give a point to wizard and no antags spawn.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:40 pm

Just remove them tbh, summon bullshit is absolutely horrifically boring.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:13 am

Malkraz wrote:no it isn't

it is but it's really up to the admins on the server if they intend to ban for it or not/how long

Post by **NoxVS** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:06 am #448432

PKPenguin321 wrote:This is already bannable

Why is it bannable? They are choosing to do what they want to as a lone antag, it’s not their fault that wizard is such a shitty mode that it relies entirely upon one person

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:08 am #448433

Suiciding as an important role at round start is an established bannable offence via headmin decision, perhaps that's why.

Of course, I've yet to witness such an event occuring considering how common the suicide wizard theme is.

Post by **NoxVS** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:20 am #448436

Steelpoint wrote:Suiciding as an important role at round start is an established bannable offence via headmin decision, perhaps that's why.

Of course, I've yet to witness such an event occuring considering how common the suicide wizard theme is.

I thought that only applied to heads. The rules even say “Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals.” Wizard is a lone antag and suiciding doesn’t fall under any of these.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:23 am #448438

Well that's why I made this thread in the desire to see some form of discouragement against a Wizard commiting suicide round start.

Post by **Cobby** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:24 am #448440

It should be included.

Malkraz · Post by **Malkraz** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:25 am #448441

I can't find a policy on the wiki Rules page that states lone antag suicide is bannable. Rule 4 permits them to do "whatever they want short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals", only limiting team antags from working against their team. Rule 5 only covers head of staff, AI/Silicon, or team conversion roles.

EDIT: After reading through the wiki-provided ruling on roundstart suicide (https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=3536), it's explicitly a matter of important roles suiciding if they don't roll antag. There is no mention of antags as "important roles" doing it.

Post by **Cobby** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:30 am #448444

rule 0 exists hehe

Malkraz · Post by **Malkraz** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:35 am #448445

Cobby wrote:rule 0 exists hehe

d*rn

lmwevil · Post by **lmwevil** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:59 am #448464

i swear we were just talking about this a month or two ago, or something related..

antags are antags and lone antags can do what they want, suiciding as wiz has never been punishable and shouldn't be

EDIT: it was to do with something in the admin forums what I was remembering - a conflict in verdict to do with jobbans and antags

Ispiria · Post by **Ispiria** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:14 am #448465

PKPenguin321 wrote:This is already bannable

Citation badly needed

Post by **Cobby** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:33 am #448467

lmwevil wrote:i swear we were just talking about this a month or two ago, or something related..

antags are antags and lone antags can do what they want, suiciding as wiz has never been punishable and shouldn't be

EDIT: it was to do with something in the admin forums what I was remembering - a conflict in verdict to do with jobbans and antags

Antags should be the driving point of the round, not suicide because of a stupid meme.

The rule exists to enable them to be conflict-driven and force situations that otherwise wouldn't be possible, not to end the round immediately.

We have prefs for a reason as well as the ghost replacing verb, there's 0 excuses why you need to suicide as an antag which ends the round for EVERYONE (with the purpose of doing such)

Post by **NoxVS** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:50 am #448470

Cobby wrote:
lmwevil wrote:i swear we were just talking about this a month or two ago, or something related..

antags are antags and lone antags can do what they want, suiciding as wiz has never been punishable and shouldn't be

EDIT: it was to do with something in the admin forums what I was remembering - a conflict in verdict to do with jobbans and antags
Antags should be the driving point of the round, not suicide because of a stupid meme.

The rule exists to enable them to be conflict-driven and force situations that otherwise wouldn't be possible, not to end the round immediately.

We have prefs for a reason as well as the ghost replacing verb, there's 0 excuses why you need to suicide as an antag which ends the round for EVERYONE (with the purpose of doing such)

Maybe instead of punishing players who suicide as wizard and end the round, it should be reworked so the entire round isn't relying on one player. Or even remove wizard if this isn't possible. Any gamemode where a single person is the one deciding if everyone else has fun or not sounds pretty shitty anyways. I don't see much of value that would be lost if the mode was removed entirely.

Also if the reason why wizards should be punished for suiciding is because "Antags should be the driving point of the round" then why not apply it to other antags too? Ban traitors who don't cause conflicts, ban changelings who just do their job and never use their powers or kill anyone, ban malf AIs if their targets die on their own and the AI just acts like normal asimov for the rest of the round.

Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:25 am

Ispiria wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:This is already bannable
Citation badly needed

cant find the ban anymore since it's really really old but it happened before
thought kor did the ban but i cant find it in his bans either so honestly i have no idea where the citation is, but i dont actually care enough about this to keep digging

Post by **oranges** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:32 am #448484

never ban people for this, they are free to do with *their* antag choice as they please

and what's better

a round that ends 5-10 minutes it, or one that ends immediately

Malkraz · Post by **Malkraz** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:34 am #448486

NoxVS wrote: Any gamemode where a single person is the one deciding if everyone else has fun or not sounds pretty shitty anyways. I don't see much of value that would be lost if the mode was removed entirely.

This guy gets it.
It's not a "stupid meme", it's an opportunity to spare everyone from having to spectate yet another 45 minute autism fest. We just happen to also have a laugh about doing it. Wiz rounds bring out 2 aspects of antag rounds that when combined make the game complete shit: interruption of standard play and solo murderbone.
If you have a traitor attempting to solo murderbone, unless he's extremely fucking robust then most people won't really have to worry about him interrupting their departments unless he comes around and tries to get in. Even then, the traitor doesn't have too much at his disposal to beat out the competition, so there's a level of fairness involved. Revs on the other hand do not have solo murderbone, but they have more potential to easily interrupt standard play. This isn't so much of a problem however, because people still get to play as the revs. This applies to cult to a lesser extent as they're usually camping out in maint.
The primary issue for Wizard comes from the fact that it combines these two aspects. Not only do you have a single insanely overpowered player as the only one who's going to get to do anything, but he can go anywhere at any fucking time and completely shut down a department's functions, likely eliminating medbay and cloning early on. Now all you get to do is sit in deadchat staring at people running at the wizard in straight lines getting ONI SOMA'd for the better part of an hour. This is exacerbated even more when he starts doing dumb fucking spawn spells and everyone drops what they're working on and go on a station-wide tide spree without the collective interest of the Revolution.
I won't uncheck Wizard until it's removed.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:36 am #448487

>he's still persisting with the nobody likes wizard line of attack

hyperlul