You: Declares war, Me: Suicides, Admins: BWOINK

[Nabski]

Should people be allowed to suicide right as war is declared?

I've given 4 people short war op bans for this, because I feel like it was antag rolling to try to get the ghost roll extra team operatives. In two of those four cases while I was talking to them they became an operative. This would have been a ban appeal by someone, but I applied the ban on the wrong person and didn't feel like it was worth reapplying since I had already kicked him out of the operative, so most of the punishment was already done.

Note we've had something similar to this thread before.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=3536

[Shaps-cloud]

I've ghosted a few times during war ops because war ops sucks after the 5th time, but I do agree that rolling for op slots like that is questionable. Maybe kick them out of the body and offer it to ghosts again if they killed themselves?

[Limski]

Committing suicide right after war being declared (assuming your role is not crucial to the round) should be okay but only if it isn't followed by immediate rolling for warops ghost roles, since that is pretty blatant antag rolling.

Forcing people to participate in rounds they find no enjoyment in is pretty lame, this is a game after all and we're all here to have fun.

[Lumbermancer]

Do you bwoink for suicide hop line? Or for any suicide? What difference does war declaration make, if you are not holding a crucial position, like head of staff? While I don't suicide almost ever, I rarely give a fuck about war ops, which got me flamed that one time when I instead went and got smashed in bar as a HoS.

Don't people fish for antags all the time? How many antags are ghost mid round antags? Xeno monsters? Christ you can even push a button and become syndicate radio spamer. Ops are generally a bad mode, so maybe don't hate the player, or something.

[Lazengann]

I've suicided when war ops was declared a couple times. I never rolled operative after, but I probably would have hit yes during the prompt. Not because I was rolling for it, but because it's actually fun.

Being on station isn't very enjoyable. Twenty+ minutes of absolute boredom followed by nuke ops arriving and dying on the other side of the station from you is just a lame experience. I think this is a game mode problem.

[Dax Dupont]

It's not enjoyable at all and people should be allowed to suicide/ghost if they want.
It's probably more enjoyable to them to observe ops or they just don't want to play because they have autism projects in mind.
If I'm a botanist and it's warops I'd probably suicide too. Don't feel like putting in effort when its either gonna be nuked or the shuttle is for sure called 25 minutes in.

[Mickyan]

It doesn't make sense that suicides allows you to roll for midround antag but ghosting (or observing) doesn't, despite both being considered OOC actions when you don't want to play the current round

That's the main problem imo, you can't possibly force people to play rounds but if they decide to opt out then it should be a permanent decision (and killing yourself through "normal" means to roll antag would be actionable for trying to bypass this)

[Bluespace]

Just stick a 10 minute cool-down on joining any ghost roles after any sort of death, that can easily be disabled by a single button on the player panel.
Tada.

[Ayy Lemoh]

and killing yourself through "normal" means to roll antag would be actionable for trying to bypass this

Of course, then Coderbus would have to remove midround antag roles for ghosts in general since someone could potentially get banned for getting killed but there's a small possibility that the dead man's plan was to roll for antag.

Anyone wanting to die would basically be seen as a griefer if that was the case and the silicon policy rule of IF SOMEONE GIVES YOU A LAW TO KILL YOURSELF THEN AHELP THEM would be enforced more heavily. The possible goal of getting rp back in /tg/station would basically get fucked even harder.

If punishing people for dying through normal means was actually allowed then it would lead into a slippery slope of removing all ghost roles because one could argue about them being used to self-antag. Being dead would basically go back to the ways of "dead = permanently out of round"

Just stick a 10 minute cool-down on joining any ghost roles after any sort of death, that can easily be disabled by a single button on the player panel.

That sounds good.

[PKPenguin321]

Who cares if they want the ghost role? Why is this an issue (unless they're the captain or something)?

[Nabski]

Who cares if they want the ghost role? Why is this an issue (unless they're the captain or something)?

I was looking at it from a perspective mostly of antag rolling, with a side helping of if you're on a team you're supposed to at least slightly help your team.

I'm trying to leave my personal disdain for war declaration in general out of this.

[Lumbermancer]

Why is this an issue

If the game mode makes you kill yourself, that's probably an issue.

[PKPenguin321]

Why is this an issue

If the game mode makes you kill yourself, that's probably an issue.

But a policy issue?

[Lumbermancer]

I don't know. Don't be a dick?

[D&B]

Not hard to figure out that it is self antagging PK.

A good code solution would be to make players that ghost themselves unable to join back as any other roles. If they want to use ghost roles they could kill themselves or observe.

[DemonFiren]

killing yourself just to join ops apparently is a problem, though

[PKPenguin321]

This seems like it's different, though. Players might just not want to play a war ops round. If they are purely antag rolling, they're not even guaranteed to get the role in this case. Often there won't even be observers to fill syndicate roles, and in those cases they're actually helping. I think there isn't enough of an issue here (can't confirm intent of suicides, the roll isn't guaranteed) to immediately ban for it with a blanket statement like "self antagging."

[Ayy Lemoh]

A good code solution would be to make players that ghost themselves unable to join back as any other roles. If they want to use ghost roles they could kill themselves or observe.

What's the difference between ghosting and killing themselves code-wise?

You can ghost even if you're prevented from suiciding, but you're most likely an antag already if someone is puts you in a situation where your only winning move is to pray or ghost. People aren't gonna go through the effort of trying to n2o gas everyone in a room that no one can find JUST to prevent people from antag rolling when they could've suicided at the beginning of the round.

[Dax Dupont]

This seems like it's different, though. Players might just not want to play a war ops round. If they are purely antag rolling, they're not even guaranteed to get the role in this case. Often there won't even be observers to fill syndicate roles, and in those cases they're actually helping. I think there isn't enough of an issue here (can't confirm intent of suicides, the roll isn't guaranteed) to immediately ban for it with a blanket statement like "self antagging."

I agree with this.
I've had to refund extra manpower before as an admin because there weren't enough ghosts.

[D&B]

Ghosting is the I don't want to play anymore command.

If someone continuously suicides hoping for antag you have logs and a pattern, a big stick and a talk down you can deliver to tell them to cut that shit out.

[Ayy Lemoh]

I've had to refund extra manpower before as an admin because there weren't enough ghosts.

have you tried refunding it and then spawning a syNDICATE DRONE

THE BEST ANTAG IN THE GAME IS THE SYNDICATE DRONE FOR IT'S PURE ROBUST KILLING POWER

EVERYONE IN SS13 CLICKS YES WHEN THEY SEE SYNDICATE DRONE GHOST ROLES POP UP. ANYONE WHO SAYS NO IS ACTUALLY BAN EVADING

PERIOD.

[PKPenguin321]

Ghosting is the I don't want to play anymore command.

If someone continuously suicides hoping for antag you have logs and a pattern, a big stick and a talk down you can deliver to tell them to cut that shit out.

Sure, but that's not what it looks like is being discussed. Thanks for the reminder though

[leibniz]

it doesnt hurt anyone

[Lumbermancer]

It hurts the round.

[leibniz]

It hurts the round.

war ops round doesnt have the kind of quality that can be hurt by people suiciding

[Iatots]

It hurts the round.

war ops round doesnt have the kind of quality that can be hurt by people suiciding

No round does if you are jaded enough, but warops lets you possibly reroll the fancy red toys lottery.

[RogueSteampunker]

ITT: people argue about how to make people stick around to have fun for the 10 or so people that will really matter in a war op round

Joking aside, trying to punish people for the sake of suicide for the potential of a ghostroll is silly. Just punish the ones who're constantly suiciding for op rounds if you must. And even then it seems silly, since war OPs happens so randomly, that the chance that people are suiciding just to roll for it constantly seems rather silly. Besides, forcing people to either sit around as a non-head or sec role basically just get used for cannon fodder or get beoinked for suiciding seems dumb.

[Dax Dupont]

Ghosting is the I don't want to play anymore command.

If someone continuously suicides hoping for antag you have logs and a pattern, a big stick and a talk down you can deliver to tell them to cut that shit out.

We can see ghosting and suicides all the same.

We also speak softly and carry a big stick.

[Nabski]

ITT: people argue about how to make people stick around to have fun for the 10 or so people that will really matter in a war op round

Joking aside, trying to punish people for the sake of suicide for the potential of a ghostroll is silly. Just punish the ones who're constantly suiciding for op rounds if you must. And even then it seems silly, since war OPs happens so randomly, that the chance that people are suiciding just to roll for it constantly seems rather silly. Besides, forcing people to either sit around as a non-head or sec role basically just get used for cannon fodder or get beoinked for suiciding seems dumb.

The happens so rarely is part of why this is a hard thing to deal with. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to be "cannon fodder" three rounds in a row, but how do you catch anyone "constantly" doing it when at most war is 1 in 10 rounds.

[Anuv]

Agreed that a cooldown for ghost roles would help. Even on non-war rounds you could become a holoparasite or something similar. I feel like antag rep shit would help with this as well.

[Saegrimr]

Agreed that a cooldown for ghost roles would help. Even on non-war rounds you could become a holoparasite or something similar. I feel like antag rep shit would help with this as well.

As long as it doesn't fuck with ashwalker/golem/whatever ghost spawner menu roles exist. I unironically like to dick around on that rusted station full of hivebots when the round is shit.

[iamgoofball]

a randomized 5-10 minute delay on going from death to ghost role would probably help here a lot

[Lumbermancer]

goof is right.

[Incomptinence]

No all these limitation on taking a ghost role concepts are dumb as hell.

It could also result in the possible edge case of an antag who has the right to summon reinforcements and sacrificed the initiative by declaring war being screwed because of a lack of eligible ghosts.

Antag rolling is a minor issue that takes a long time to even have a meaningful impact on the game and the net result in the normal case of roundstart antags is a braindead somewhere, the issue is hardly even touched upon short of well known powergamers.

You all seem to be confusing it with antag seeking behaviour like hunting down the revs or cultists and rolling over seeking surgical removal of loyalty implants as soon as you leave the brig shit like that.
This is no where near as bad as that since while they want to be an op the war decision was not theirs and the chance is random anyway. If you hold to this as a ruling everyone who suicides after xenos or blood cultists are known to be on station should be banned because those also have random ghost mechanics.

[Nabski]

No all these limitation on taking a ghost role concepts are dumb as hell.

It could also result in the possible edge case of an antag who has the right to summon reinforcements and sacrificed the initiative by declaring war being screwed because of a lack of eligible ghosts.

Antag rolling is a minor issue that takes a long time to even have a meaningful impact on the game and the net result in the normal case of roundstart antags is a braindead somewhere probably hardly even touched upon short of well known powergamers.

You all seem to be confusing it with antag seeking behaviour like hunting down the revs or cultists and rolling over seeking surgical removal of loyalty implants as soon as you leave the brig shit like that.
This is no where near as bad as that since while they want to be an op the war decision was not theirs and the chance is random anyway. If you hold to this as a ruling everyone who suicides after xenos or blood cultists are known to be on station should be banned because those also have random ghost mechanics.

See I actually agree with that last line. If you hear xenos and suicide in hopes of being one, that's an issue.

[Incomptinence]

Xenos literally becomes game breaking on an administration or mechanical level with either solution then.

Admins combing every possible death not just suicides for the deadly sin of "antag rolling".
Or if we take the coding approach xeno larva are drooling in a corner the no fun egg timer isn't done yet.

[NikNakFlak]

This sounds like a job for a HARDCODED SOLUTION

[oranges]

I hate these policies with a passion where you are trying to force people to play the game when a round they don't like rolls.

Our game covers a vast range of different gamemodes and people don't know which one it is until something happens.

I don't believe people should be punished for opting out at that time, forcing people to continue will just make them resentful and act out IC or just go braindead.

Clearly we should add the name of the gametype to the roundstart and dispense with this so people can just choose not to play and not get punished by admins for it.

[Cobby]

I hate these policies with a passion where you are trying to force people to play the game when a round they don't like rolls.

Our game covers a vast range of different gamemodes and people don't know which one it is until something happens.

I don't believe people should be punished for opting out at that time, forcing people to continue will just make them resentful and act out IC or just go braindead.

Clearly we should add the name of the gametype to the roundstart and dispense with this so people can just choose not to play and not get punished by admins for it.

I agree completely minus the sarcasm bits but does the argument change when they DO want the gamemode, but only when they're on a particular team (IE the case with OP)?

[oranges]

none of that was sarcasm, I'm completely willing to take that path.

[Ayy Lemoh]

none of that was sarcasm, I'm completely willing to take that path.

does the argument change when they DO want the gamemode, but only when they're on a particular team (IE the case with OP)?

Cobby raises a good point if we did go down that route, but I feel like that would come with it's own issues.

however it would probably help with people starting long-term projects if they knew the round wasn't nuke ops or blood cult where it's basically:

alright dudes we have to call the shuttle immediately or else we get killed by the most cheesiest fucking tactics they can dish out

because i fucking hate blood cult or nuclear operatives for that reason, especially during blood cult where you really have to fucking powergame to get the shuttle called and not let it get recalled.

[Dr_bee]

If this is a common problem, a code solution would be to put them at the back of the queue for reinforcements as there's less fun if no-one accepts the call.

Random antag rolls should be weighted by time dead anyway in my opinion. It is also sad to me that more coding changes get talked about in fucking policy discussion than in the suggestions or feedback forums.

[Dr_bee]

none of that was sarcasm, I'm completely willing to take that path.

does the argument change when they DO want the gamemode, but only when they're on a particular team (IE the case with OP)?

Cobby raises a good point if we did go down that route, but I feel like that would come with it's own issues.

however it would probably help with people starting long-term projects if they knew the round wasn't nuke ops or blood cult where it's basically:

alright dudes we have to call the shuttle immediately or else we get killed by the most cheesiest fucking tactics they can dish out

because i fucking hate blood cult or nuclear operatives for that reason, especially during blood cult where you really have to fucking powergame to get the shuttle called and not let it get recalled.

Nuke ops is designed around that, if a group of ops cant get the disk in 25 minutes they dont deserve the win.

Blood cult on the other hand has this as a major problem, considering it is literally the only way to fight the cult at all with how fucking broken their powers are. They have instagib sec officer runes fucking standard, and it gives them a free unstunnable ally.

also I thought datum antags was developed to get rid of roundtypes in general? what ever happened to making 1 roundtype with a random sprinkling of antagonists?

[Incomptinence]

Weighting to make the role less likely would be okay.

Forced wait timer is basically screaming I HATE ANYTHING DYNAMIC AND I JUST WANT NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND MY SWEET SWEET EVA SHUTTLE.

[NikNakFlak]

blood cult is pretty awful yea. This really would be solved with a code solution so well, announcing gametypes at the beginning of the round would massively break the game and even though oranges says he's not meming, that's just the wrong approach. A ghost timer, or fiddling with the mechanics of war ops or even making it so it doesn't announce the war until they take all they finish spending all their TCs or something is the way to go. Easily, better solutions without breaking the entire game

[Ayy Lemoh]

making it so it doesn't announce the war until they take all they finish spending all their TCs or something is the way to go.

Let's assume that if the nuke ops press the button to open nuke op shuttle doors, the war announcement will pop up. That is the only good method I can think of besides BUY ONE ITEM AND IMMEDIATELY GET FUCKED or YOU HAVE TO SPEND ALL YOUR TC OR ELSE NOTHING HAPPENS LMAO UBER STEALTH WAR OPS IS THE META NOW LMAO. There is nothing else different. One could finish buying all their items, wait until they can go to the station, and then open the shutter.

You would have basically one minute to prepare assuming the nuke disk holder isn't getting fucked over by someone.

If it works in a way where the nuke ops have PLENTY of time to prepare but are forced to wait in the outpost for 15 minutes after the announcement pops up then the following possibilities occur:
A. If shuttle can't be called until war op announcement then people are going to know the peaceful round is war ops when they try to call the shuttle at 30 minutes and it won't let them.
B. If shuttle can be called then rest in peace peaceful shifts since they would probably just assume it's war ops if nothing happened by 00:30:00
C. this is the most boring and frustrating thing i can think of where it pisses off both people who want action and people who prefer calmer interactions.

The main drawback behind war ops is that you have to do it quickly and then basically prepare in a quick order just like how the crew has to. There is no way to keep this with your vision without giving an unfair advantage to one side because one had more prep time than the other. One could argue awperatives can buy da guns immediately while it takes time for us to get gunz therefore it be fair if crew has more prep time however that's not even related to your post.

tl;dr

Spoiler:

[youtube]xVzK79undb0[/youtube]
the reaction of anyone who saw this post i made

[Not-Dorsidarf]

why do you have to kill yourself if you hate the roundtype so intensely you cant stand to exist in it? why dont you just... tab out. boot up the other server or something.

[Ayy Lemoh]

why do you have to kill yourself if you hate the roundtype so intensely you cant stand to exist in it? why dont you just... tab out. boot up the other server or something.

The same reason ghost roles in general were added, I assume.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

I do suicide on warops or cult if I dont feel like playing high effort gamemodes, banning people without being 100% sure he is doing an offense seems dumb

[DemonFiren]

so what's wrong with the suggestion that ghosts/suicides wait 10 minutes before being eligible for ghost roles?