[Arianya] BigPenorBoi - Very poor administrative skills

bigpenorboi · Post by **bigpenorboi** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:36 pm #412499

Byond account and character name: BigPenorBoi - Tyrone Gucciston
Admin: Arianya
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: Bagil around 22:00 GMT but maybe before I am not sure
ROUND ID HERE: 88387
Detailed summary:

I was playing security and arrested someone for having a stunprod (space law 204) and then when I took them to the brig the warden assaulted and arrested me. I tried to get the HoS' attention to resolve the issue but they ignored me so I ahelped as the HoS is meant to have a high standard to play them which was clearly not being met as they didn't resolve any of the issues in the brig and there was maybe 3 or 4 members of security standing there doing nothing.

When I ahelped it he didn't know the security chain of command (warden, det and sec officer are all equal and under the HoS who is under the Cap) and thought warden was above Sec Officer, when I quoted the wiki stating we are equal he just said "No not in the brig" then closed the ticket completely ignoring my point that the HoS was the issue more than the warden as the warden was just having poor space law but he was warden so it's fine whereas the HoS was just unable to actually do his job.

I tried to reopen the ticket since I felt I wasn't done speaking and then ticket closed. Tried again, ticket closed and muted from ahelp. Then ahelp rejected, then muted.

Instead of actually discussing issues he would just get the last word in and close tickets or mute, which is in my opinion poor conduct for an admin. He should be able to discuss and explain issues instead of muting people when he has got the last word in.

Post by **oranges** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:44 pm #412500

attack log of the "assault"

[2018-05-23 21:00:06.420] ATTACK: Snake Pliskin(tristain01) leg sweeped Tyrone Gucciston(bigpenorboi) (NEWHP: 90) (106,163,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:06.853] ATTACK: Swarmer (886)(gblue) fired at plating with The disabler beam from Starboard Bow Maintenance (152,167,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:06.857] ATTACK: Swarmer (886)(gblue) shot Freddy Alarms(zack24) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 68) (153,167,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:07.966] ATTACK: Emily Ramos(bod9001) fired at firelock with The laser from Central Primary Hallway (118,114,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:08.371] ATTACK: Swarmer (444)(thunder12345) fired at plating with The disabler beam from Starboard Quarter Maintenance (151,104,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:08.378] ATTACK: Mateo Whiteman(grinoldy) shaked Jason Bimbo(escorspoon) (NEWHP: 35) (146,177,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:08.585] ATTACK: Emily Ramos(bod9001) shot Swarmer (195)(astatineguy12) with The laser (NEWHP: 20) (122,114,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:08.758] ATTACK: Swarmer (755)(jordb3) electrified Test Subject Cell (66,84,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:08.838] ATTACK: Swarmer (56)(sartorius7) fired at Arnold Infinite(py01) with The disabler beam from Prison Wing (NEWHP: 100) (94,186,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:08.838] ATTACK: Emily Ramos(bod9001) fired at floor with The laser from Central Primary Hallway (119,114,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:09.008] ATTACK: Swarmer (56)(sartorius7) shot Arnold Infinite(py01) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (94,187,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:09.513] ATTACK: Swarmer (886)(gblue) attacked Philip Kanaga (NEWHP: -156.667) (152,167,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:09.844] ATTACK: Arnold Infinite(py01) thrown stunbaton (94,187,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:09.847] ATTACK: Alexios Komnenos(nietnietniet) fed Alexios Komnenos(nietnietniet) with styptic_powder (20u) (NEWHP: 26) (89,109,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:10.008] ATTACK: Swarmer (852)(capsandi) fired at floor with The disabler beam from Starboard Primary Hallway (154,135,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:10.475] ATTACK: Swarmer (852)(capsandi) shot Eli Robinson(crazyclown12) with The disabler beam (NEWHP: 98) (154,138,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:10.515] ATTACK: Swarmer (195)(astatineguy12) fired at footprints with The disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (120,116,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:10.633] ATTACK: Swarmer (886)(gblue) attacked Freddy Alarms(zack24) (NEWHP: 68) (153,167,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:11.540] ATTACK: Swarmer (56)(sartorius7) fired at Arnold Infinite(py01) with The disabler beam from Prison Wing (NEWHP: 100) (94,187,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:12.472] ATTACK: Swarmer (886)(gblue) handcuffed Freddy Alarms(zack24) (NEWHP: 68) (153,167,2)
[2018-05-23 21:00:12.479] ATTACK: Snake Pliskin(tristain01) handcuffed Tyrone Gucciston(bigpenorboi) (NEWHP: 90) (106,163,2)

Say logs of the two players

Spoiler:

Argument starts 2018-05-23 20:57:12.833

bigpenorboi · Post by **bigpenorboi** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:47 pm #412501

The amount of damage he caused didn't really matter he still assaulted me by attacking me, which isn't even the focus of this post. You are doing the same thing Arianya did which is moving the focus to the Warden instead of HoS.

onleavedontatme · Wed May 23, 2018 9:51 pm

Arresting an officer for arresting an assistant with a stunprod is kind of weird, did he ever say why he did it?

Post by **Arianya** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:52 pm #412505

First of all, she

To give context to the round: Swarmers were spawned before the round started, and the whole round was effectively a ongoing struggle between the crew and the swarmers (with traitors and changelings mixed into it).

You arrested an assistant with a stunprod, and when they were taken to the brig you were told by the Warden that this was not a good reason for arrest, due to the circumstances on station, which meant the assistant had semi-legitimate reasoning for weaponry. This argument should have ended here, barring the HoS intervening, but you refused to accept this reasoning. Eventually you were cuffed, since you were refusing to listen, and when uncuffed you stunbatoned the Warden, and were then very rapidly taken down by another security officer and recuffed, as well as brigged until the shuttle arrived (roughly 8-9 minutes) at which point you were taken to the shuttle.

Space Law is a suggestion, not formal policy, and as such it's purely an IC tool, not an OOC yardstick for measuring security's performance. The Warden, while not being in charge of Security Officers, is functionally the second in command of security and reigns supreme in the brig, barring overruling by the Captain or the Head of Security, if he says he's not brigging someone for possession of a weapon, that's that.

To move on to the meat of the complaint: This was an IC issue through and through. The HoS was busy trying to secure escape from swarmers, and under the circumstance there was no reasonable expectation that he would divert from a crisis in order to handle a inter-departmental squabble. This doesn't breach the high expectations set on the Head of Security.

Your ticket was closed as an IC issue, and you then opened a new one regarding the same issue, which was similarly rejected. Per rule 8, administrative rulings are final, and while I was keeping an eye on the situation in case it escalated, nothing had significantly changed to justify a new ticket. On the third ticket opening, it was clear you had no intent to accept the ruling, and so I gave you a brief ahelp mute to cool off. After some minutes, I unmuted you and within a minute or two you had once again opened another ticket on the exact same issue. At this point I re-muted you, sent you a PM regarding your ahelp conduct, and left it at that.

I won't get into a long song and dance about the ticket, since this isn't about the ticket but about my "Very poor administrative skills". You are not entitled to have admins rescue you out of any IC situation you get yourself into. Nor are you entitled to "reopen tickets" because you aren't done speaking. If I were to look introspectively, I will say that I could have done a better job explaining why you received the first mute, and I apologise for this. Beyond that though, I don't personally see anything actionable, and will wait for a headmin to comment.

Post by **oranges** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:56 pm #412509

bigpenorboi wrote:The amount of damage he caused didn't really matter he still assaulted me by attacking me, which isn't even the focus of this post. You are doing the same thing Arianya did which is moving the focus to the Warden instead of HoS.

I'm not passing judgement, I'm just providing logs for context for the headadmins to help their decision.

Although I disagree with your characterisation of it as assault, I would call it the subduing of a rowdy intruder in his brig.

bigpenorboi · Wed May 23, 2018 10:14 pm

You never explained that the HoS couldn't handle it, even though it would have been beneficial for him to handle it to get more staff out and about instead of trying to solo a swarmer infestation. Ontop of this, a stunprod is not an effective weapon against against swarmers and if you wanted a strong weapon that isn't illegal to take care of swarmers you would get a welder hence I arrested him as I saw it as a weapon for taking care of personnel.

Additionally, this "space law is loose" thing is the biggest bullshit. I have been job banned for not following space law correctly while others have been let off the hook for the exact same thing in the exact same role if not worse, it just gives you the freedom to pick and choose who you do and don't want to punish. 7-9 minutes for arresting someone is way too much but "space law is loose".

You made no effort to explain or discuss the situation, instead choosing to get the last word in and mute or instantly close tickets with no explanation. The very least you could do is explain WHY you are closing the tickets.

bigpenorboi · Wed May 23, 2018 10:17 pm

Kor wrote:Arresting an officer for arresting an assistant with a stunprod is kind of weird, did he ever say why he did it?

Because I was "shitsec" for arresting someone with a stun weapon since he would need it against swarmers supposedly.

Rustledjimm · Wed May 23, 2018 10:17 pm

bigpenorboi wrote:
Additionally, this "space law is loose" thing is the biggest bullshit. I have been job banned for not following space law correctly

Could you point out which ban that was please?

Post by **Arianya** » Wed May 23, 2018 10:18 pm #412520

bigpenorboi wrote:You never explained that the HoS couldn't handle it, even though it would have been beneficial for him to handle it to get more staff out and about instead of trying to solo a swarmer infestation.

There is no expectation that admin's will corral heads, or provide information on IC circumstances to a player very much still in the round.

Ontop of this, a stunprod is not an effective weapon against against swarmers and if you wanted a strong weapon that isn't illegal to take care of swarmers you would get a welder hence I arrested him as I saw it as a weapon for taking care of personnel.

Irrelevant to this complaint.

Additionally, this "space law is loose" thing is the biggest bullshit. I have been job banned for not following space law correctly while others have been let off the hook for the exact same thing in the exact same role if not worse, it just gives you the freedom to pick and choose who you do and don't want to punish. 7-9 minutes for arresting someone is way too much but "space law is loose".

You we're jobbaned for de-limbing someone over a minor trespass, which is a failure of escalation policy and what we expect of security (not escalating to harm where non-lethal means are available). Also not relevant to this complaint.

You made no effort to explain or discuss the situation, instead choosing to get the last word in and mute or instantly close tickets with no explanation. The very least you could do is explain WHY you are closing the tickets.

You seem very obsessed with "the last word", which has very little relevance here. I explained that your situation was an IC issue and when you refused to accept this closed the ticket. Any subsequent tickets were then rejected for being regarding the same issue without any additional information.

Karp · Post by **Karp** » Wed May 23, 2018 10:19 pm #412521

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law

sorry for joining the dogpile but space law has not been enforced for at least 4 or 5 years now at all, if an admin actually did that raising it to the headmins or making a complaint/appeal would be completley valid.

feem · Post by **feem** » Wed May 23, 2018 10:30 pm #412524

Karp wrote: making a complaint/appeal would be completley valid

While space law is NOT a rule on the server, rule 1 is, and there are precedents specifically about security's use of force. During discussions about the rules and precedents (which say, super-summarized, 'security should not use excessive force unless the round has gone to shit if they can help it'), I've seen others reference space law in the past, as it mirrors that precedent of not using excessive force.

But these are in fact two items, not one:

1) Space law is NOT enforced, but:
2) Don't be a dick and abuse your security role, and space law is a reasonable guideline to achieve this.

Post by **Dax Dupont** » Wed May 23, 2018 10:43 pm #412537

He was job banned from captain for removing someone's legs (and was working on the arms) because said person broke into RnD.

Space law is a suggestion but the rules are not.

Either way, irrelevant to this complaint.

Karp · Post by **Karp** » Wed May 23, 2018 10:55 pm #412554

wouldn't be a space law related ban/issue in that case than would it

and refencing the ic only suggestion related thing as policy or reasoning is garbage, if they're being a dick fair enough but just be honest and say they're being a dick or they're acting overkill while not hiding behind that as an excuse

but this is kinda straying away from the point of the appeal and this complaint really seems like a veiled ban request against the head of security/complaint because the admin told you your point wasn't valid and gave you a no when you tried to bring it up again

Rustledjimm · Thu May 24, 2018 12:33 am

This is an ic issue.

You arrested someone for with a valid reason. The Warden, who is in charge of the brig told you he did not want to brig him. In the brig he IS your superior. What followed was IC punishment for insubordination.

This is resolved.

/tg/Station 13

[Arianya] BigPenorBoi - Very poor administrative skills

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