[virtualjohn]B00t - Should've known that it was an op round before they declared? Note appeal

[Boot]

Byond account and character name: B00t/Euphemia Seelig
Banning admin:virtualjohn
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Note in Bagil
Ban reason and length: Note
"Warning - Pushed a guard down during a nuclear operatives round, and antagonized the sec guard further. Was gulaged, came back and then gulaged the same guard. Told not to antagonize during nuclear operatives rounds."
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 05:47:10
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil):Bagil
Your side of the story: I pushed the guard before the nuclear ops declared the war.


Why you think you should be unbanned: nobody had any way of knowing what the round was before hand. Unless this is a warning not to escalate with sec on Nuke ops which would be a whole 'nother issue I find this unreasonable. At the very least I'd like it edited to explain the context of the issue.

[cedarbridge]

Given that your note was not for pushing the guard but for escalating a silly conflict with sec during warops and continuing that silly feud after escalating it to the point of being gulaged AND further escalating it after returning from being gulaged to gulag an officer it seems like you're intentionally downplaying what happened here.

Edit: You also just got off a pretty long assistant ban for similar tiding.

[Boot]

> and continuing that silly feud after escalating it to the point of being gulaged

Why would you even say anything if you don't know. You see me in there saying oh sorryy. I pushed him once and I got gulaged am I misreading the situation here.

>further escalating it after returning from being gulaged to gulag an officer it

He got 500 points I gave him 501 such escalation.

>Edit: You also just got off a pretty long assistant ban for similar tiding.

I was banned for asking the ai to kill a nonhuman sec guard for arresting me. That is not similar to what happened here. Please refrain from talking about the situation without atleast going over the logs. Thank you.

[cedarbridge]

>Edit: You also just got off a pretty long assistant ban for similar tiding.

I was banned for asking the ai to kill a nonhuman sec guard for arresting me. That is not similar to what happened here. Please refrain from talking about the situation without atleast going over the logs. Thank you.

Banned from Assistant - Take a break from greytiding.

So yes. You were banned for weaponizing the AI against sec because an officer that arrested you was a lizard. If you can't get arrested without needing revenge for having been arrested maybe consider not getting arrested?

[Boot]

Mr John agreed that the sec officer over stepped his bounds. My only complaint is that this note misrepresents the situation. Please note that it claims that I "pushed a guard down during a nuclear operatives round" and antagonized to get gulaged when the only thing I did was push an officer once. Now if you would please respond to my complaint or stop cluttering up the thread with past mistakes.

[starmute]

The appropriate logs for this round are

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... und-86128/

Round 86128
Time 05:03:26-05:50:35
4/6/2018

[Virtual John]

Hi, John here. I certainly don't mind changing the note from showing that you pushed him down to failed to push him down. The main point is the escalation, which will stick.

[Boot]

Then the only thing left to ask is what should I have done in that situation. You said you agree that he over escalated. I feel that they are getting undue protection just because they are a sec officer.

[Virtual John]

As stated, the officer did over-escalate things and was talked to. Like you, he received a note, or warning on his record stating he has been talked to about this. He didn't get any special or favoritism. You pushing him was harmless, really. Gulaging for that wasn't necessary but returning the favor to him as a non-antag doesn't cut it. During a Nuclear Emergency.. well. I'd say you need to cut back on trying to get even. Grey-tiding kills, you know.

[Virtual John]

In any case, the note has been changed to show that you attempted to push him, not actually push him down. Was there anything else?

[CPTANT]

In any case, the note has been changed to show that you attempted to push him, not actually push him down. Was there anything else?

If you changed this to "tried to push a guard down during a nuclear operatives round" then it is still false. How can you note people for doing things "during a nuclear operatives round" when they don't even have that information?

"and antagonized the sec guard further. Was gulaged, came back and then gulaged the same guard."

Is this the correct order of events? As far as I read this thread the gulagging was the direct result of the single push.

As stated, the officer did over-escalate things and was talked to. Like you, he received a note, or warning on his record stating he has been talked to about this. He didn't get any special or favoritism. You pushing him was harmless, really. Gulaging for that wasn't necessary but returning the favor to him as a non-antag doesn't cut it.

How is this not in line with the escalation rules that are now in effect?

[Boot]

In any case, the note has been changed to show that you attempted to push him, not actually push him down. Was there anything else?

Yes I would very much like you to respond to my original complaint. Luckily enough CPTANT put it in much better words.

If you changed this to "tried to push a guard down during a nuclear operatives round" then it is still false. How can you note people for doing things "during a nuclear operatives round" when they don't even have that information?

I have yet to have this section be addressed. I am being warned for something I did not do. I didn't try and push a guard down turning a nukes ops round. I tried to push a sec officer down during a we dont know what it is yet round.

You pushing him was harmless, really. Gulaging for that wasn't necessary but returning the favor to him as a non-antag doesn't cut it.

Would you mind expanding on this. Is the idea of returning the favor not the whole point of the current escalation rules. If I am just completely off base please let me know.

[starmute]

Personal opinion: feel free to delete this if it is not within the scope of the anon amendment

You asked what you did. Here is my opinion from a neutral observer's point of view:

You greytided within 2 minutes of spawning. So you were gulaged for 500 points as a assistant.

As per rule #4

Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag."

That's permissible and you can get out quickly of the gulag.

You then ambushed the guard 15 minutes later, to give him some of his "own medicine". According to this logic, if you commit a crime as a non antagonist and are locked up you have every right to escalate the situation with those who locked you up.

Additionally, according to Cedarbridge you have a history of this kind of behavior.

Given that your note was not for pushing the guard but for escalating a silly conflict with sec during warops and continuing that silly feud after escalating it to the point of being gulaged AND further escalating it after returning from being gulaged to gulag an officer it seems like you're intentionally downplaying what happened here.

Edit: You also just got off a pretty long assistant ban for similar tiding.

So in short: You greytided and were caught by sec; however you wanted to participate in the Ops round and felt that invalidated your sentence. Due to them sentencing you, you took it upon yourself to greytide even more.

You have a history of this kind of behavior and this note is another reflection of what a admin observed of that.

Then the only thing left to ask is what should I have done in that situation.

Don't greytide. Don't be upset when you get caught greytiding. Bad behavior tends to create bad situations.

Edit:

Spoiler:

I tried, I apparently cannot communicate with you in a way that you understand.

[Boot]

So in short: You greytided and were caught by sec; however you wanted to participate in the Ops round and felt that invalidated your sentence. Due to them sentencing you, you took it upon yourself to greytide even more.

That's one why to look at it. Here's another. I greytide, get caught by sec, they over escalate as the admin as said, I then by the current escalation rules retaliate. They gave me 500 points I gave him 501. As you said you can quickly get out of the gulag. I didn't ruin it so fair game. I then get a warning because I was wronged and didn't ahelp it instead opting to handle it IC.

If I am misreading the situation please let me know.

[onleavedontatme]

There are way too many uninvolved posts, gonna lock this till headmins have time to look at it. Two are on planes right now so it might be a bit.

[CitrusGender]

It's an interesting question here, one party disarms a sec officer at the start of a round and then that sec officer goes way too far afterward. Such activity is not too different than what would be expected under previous escalation policy. Hell, I can imagine that some admins would probably have been okay with him throwing the sec officer into space. (Though absolutely not myself and I encourage all admins to stay away from that line of thinking.)

However, I think this type of escalation, for the time being, is something that is okay since the server is currently moving away from the previous escalation policy (which will be amended in due time.) You cannot appeal notes if they are factually correct though, so the note will remain. Though, I think this action would have likely been considered acceptable to me if I was taking the ahelp. In any event, I would want to see the "antagonized the sec guard further" made more specific or removed from the note since that is subjective.

[Cobby]

I would like to remind individuals GULAG != PERMA.

Gulag is Brig but without the ability to afk AS WELL AS PERMA. The differentiating factor is the amount of points you have on your card (which no one had mention in this thread).

For admins: This can be done by VVing the mob > card slot reference (usually) > goal var. Not to say this situation specifically applies here, but please do not fuss at officers for gulagging an individuals without first checking the point goal they assigned.

As space law says, the rough conversion ratio is 1min:100 points. Since I edited the ore drops long ago and have yet to receive feedback on them, I assume this is feasible with the current drop rate.

[CitrusGender]

After a brief discussion, I realize there are some problems with the facts of the note, particularly that the note does not imply that the disarm happened before nuke ops was declared: so that would have been a nonfactor in the disarm (because the note seems to imply that the disarm happened while both parties knew it was nuke ops.) This doesn't usually happen but, as we can all see from OP's image, the disarm happened at the exact same point that before war was declared.

I think I am going to end up removing this note just due to the problems associated with it. A large paragraph showing the reasoning behind something such as this would be a headache to read and not very helpful to admins attempting to look over this players notes.