Atlanta-Ned - Jembo Flufftext Not knowing the rules.

[Jembo]

Atlanta-Ned - Not knowing the rules, and lazy responses.

ie: Was killed by a traitor, screamed for help and watched a few people attempt to assist me before being spaced. Kept observing traitor (hoping to watch them get dunked) and noticed extremely shady behavior from non-antag assisting them. I reported said behavior and received a response that wasn't related to what I adminhelped. When I told them that wasn't even closely related to what I admin helped they told me it was okay for non-antags to help antags sometimes and closed the ticket again. Which from what I saw ICly and what is stated in the rules about assisting antags didn't line up. They also made the statement they don't take 3rd party Adminhelps which isn't posted anywhere in the rules but could of been added somewhere else along the lines I've been playing a long time so sometimes these things change. But I'm unaware of it being something.



Post Content:
I don't have my first adminhelp because I didn't save the logs fast enough but it was something about watching A player, drag away a blatant (rainbow flashing jumpsuit, carp-fu, no slips) antag from sec while they were in cuffs. Then uncuffing said player, disarming a sec officer watching the person they just uncuffed carp-fu the sec officer. Then batoned him a number of times allowing their antag buddy to escape. As a note, I didn't see interaction between the player, and the antag although I may of missed it as watching the fighting, was a little distracting over reading the text. (Antag Lexia Black, and Player Respii Varenos)

Their response

- AdminHelp marked as IC issue! -
Losing is part of the game!
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

My Reply

PM to-Admins: Hold on that is not what I admin helped, I just wanted to know why someone who I believe to be a non-traitor went out of their way to assist a traitor. This isn't about me dying this is about me noticing behavior that seemed odd.

Them again

-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Atlanta-ned: People can assist traitors occasionally. And we don't take 3rd party ahelps.
Click on the administrator's name to reply.

The rule on assisting antags.

Non-antagonists are allowed to assist antagonists given sufficient IC reasoning but assisting an antagonist doesn't mean you get to act like one . If in doubt, ask an admin if a particular action is okay. Depending on the level of assistance, sufficient IC reasoning could be simply treating everyone who goes into medbay regardless of them being a murderer or not, all the way to being threatened under pain of death by an antagonist to do something.

Byond account and character name: Jembo - Josh Morris
Admin:
Around 1:00 p.m. Central and Bagil incident occurred:
ROUND ID HERE: 83447

(I don't see why it's important but edited and added)

[Okand37]

Their response

- AdminHelp marked as IC issue! -
Losing is part of the game!
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

My Reply

PM to-Admins: Hold on that is not what I admin helped, I just wanted to know why someone who I believe to be a non-traitor went out of their way to assist a traitor. This isn't about me dying this is about me noticing behavior that seemed odd.

When an adminhelp is marked as IC, that is the automated message it sends to the player and is not influenced by the admin.
EDIT: If you could, please edit the title to follow the format "[admin name] player name - fluff text" at your earliest convenience!

[Stickymayhem]

we don't take 3rd party ahelps.

Never heard of this policy. I don't see any logical reason for this. It's a complex game and people noticing stuff and ahelping is helpful.

[Cobby]

I was asked to post this here so this was the conversation I had with them.

The only part remaining was that I suggested if they wanted anything more done then me talking with atlanta to make sure things aren't conveyed in a rude manner is to take it to the forums (this is because I posted these before the conversation actually finished).

Spoiler:

Josh - Today at 2:13 PM
Hey
Cobby - Today at 2:13 PM
h-h-h-hi
Josh - Today at 2:13 PM
Sorry I just got an extremely shady ruling and it really activated my almonds if you feel me.
Cobby - Today at 2:14 PM
no prob
Josh - Today at 2:15 PM
I basically witnessed a player (non antag) wordlessly run to the assistance of another player who had carp fu, and a rainbow flashing jumpsuit and no slips. After sec arrested them and had them in handcuffs. And when I questioned the admin on this behavior I got this in response.
- AdminHelp marked as IC issue! -
Losing is part of the game!
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.
I was watching them because they punched me to death and spaced me so I was kinda keeping an eye on them to see if they'd get dunked on.
I then responded with this
PM to-Admins: Hold on that is not what I admin helped, I just wanted to know why someone who I believe to be a non-traitor went out of their way to assist a traitor. This isn't about me dying this is about me noticing behavior that seemed odd.
And followed by this
-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Atlanta-ned: People can assist traitors occasionally. And we don't take 3rd party ahelps.
Click on the administrator's name to reply.
Cobby - Today at 2:17 PM
The rules allow for "assisting" traitors with proper IC backing and sparsely done.
Josh - Today at 2:17 PM
But there wasn't any IC backing I looked up the rule to see if they were changed I've been playing a long time so sometimes that happens
Cobby - Today at 2:19 PM
It's possible atlanta had information you didn't have, such as prior (to you dying) interactions that would have justified the assistance
Josh - Today at 2:19 PM
I completely understand that, but it seems like something he didn't really look into deeply as his first response was about me dying, which happened much much much earlier in the round.
Cobby - Today at 2:20 PM
Did you ahelp the previous incident between you and that guy
he could have been following them when that occurred
Josh - Today at 2:20 PM
There was no previous incident and they killed me with a blantant traitor skill so I didn't Ahelp.
Cobby - Today at 2:20 PM
ah
Josh - Today at 2:21 PM
I only A-helped when I watched Respii, run up to the sec officer who had the traitor who killed me cuffed, grab them and run off with them before uncuffing them and the two of them disarming and beating a sec officer down while stealing his baton.
And when I asked Respii in deadchat later, they responded well I didn't see them do anything bad as a reason for stealing someone from sec, then attacking sec and stealing their gear.
Cobby - Today at 2:23 PM
Which leads into third party ahelps, which I also follow. If the people involved found it funny/interesting/within their vision of upholding the rules enough to not ahelp I don't bother with it.
Josh - Today at 2:24 PM
Well this didn't seem funny to me this seemed like blantant grief.
And I also didn't notice an IC interaction between the players before this.
Cobby - Today at 2:26 PM
"to me" is the key here if you were not involved in the situation. While we appreciate letting us know (which sometimes helps us piece together a situation more quickly), we (at least I) don't handle the situation if only someone from the outside reports it.
Josh - Today at 2:26 PM
Which is why it seemed extremely shitty for Atlanta to just disregard what I said and say 3rd party Ahelps aren't allowed, which they are I don't see anything in the rules to say they aren't. And even in the rules assistant a traitor is something that requires a fair bit of IC involvement.
Cobby - Today at 2:29 PM
Especially in a text-only game, some things can come off more rude than it is meant to. Knowing atlanta I think the message, if it came off wrong as you said, wasn't meant to do such. I'll let him know you were bothered by it so hopefully we don't have this issue in the future. If you think more should be done I'll have to ask you to take it to the forums since any more is byond my ability.
Hope I caught your grievance

we don't take 3rd party ahelps.

Never heard of this policy. I don't see any logical reason for this. It's a complex game and people noticing stuff and ahelping is helpful.

For things like netspeak (!!!!) or OOC/IC type issues then yeah that's fine.

Conflict-based ahelps can be helpful for piecing the story should the participants ahelp, but I really don't engage in a situation if the actual participants are fine with handling it ICly (which is the assumption made since they haven't ahelped).

[Jembo]

Conflict-based ahelps

This isn't just an IC conflict of one player attacking another player. This is one player assisting an antag, and attacking sec while doing so nearly completely wordlessly. Also if this is a policy or rule it really should be listed somewhere. And my issue wasn't with their attitude it was with their ruling which you left out. I made this because I clearly don't think they understand the rules that involve antag interaction, as well making up some unlisted unmentioned admin rule about 3rd party adminhelps.

Cobby - Today at 1:29 PM
Especially in a text-only game, some things can come off more rude than it is meant to. Knowing atlanta I think the message, if it came off wrong as you said, wasn't meant to do such. I'll let him know you were bothered by it so hopefully we don't have this issue in the future. If you think more should be done I'll have to ask you to take it to the forums since any more is byond my ability.
Hope I caught your grievance :smiley:
Josh - Today at 1:40 PM
Well regardless I completely disagree with the assistant a traitor thing, I know there isn't much you can do about this but thanks for talking to me about the issue.
Cobby - Today at 1:40 PM
No problem! Glad I could somewhat help :p

[oranges]

we don't take 3rd party ahelps.

Never heard of this policy. I don't see any logical reason for this. It's a complex game and people noticing stuff and ahelping is helpful.

I don't think it's so much a policy as it is a "Admins don't have to pick up your ahelp about third parties unless they believe something untoward is going on" because the preference is to let things resolve IC.

I think ned just stated it poorly.

[kevinz000]

we don't take 3rd party ahelps.

Never heard of this policy. I don't see any logical reason for this. It's a complex game and people noticing stuff and ahelping is helpful.

I don't think it's so much a policy as it is a "Admins don't have to pick up your ahelp about third parties unless they believe something untoward is going on" because the preference is to let things resolve IC.

I think ned just stated it poorly.

[Jembo]

preference is to let things resolve IC.

And that's just that, you have someone who shouldn't be ICly helping an antag without due cause which wasn't noticed by an admin. When it was brought up to said admin, they said IC issue and said we don't take 3rd party ahelps. I'll post the actual rules for assisting antags again, because it seems like something everyone who responded wants to ignore. Admins should know the rules and know it's not acceptable to grief sec, and steal caught antags away while then attacking pursuing sec officers and stealing their gear without any proper IC action beforehand.

The rule on assisting antags.

Non-antagonists are allowed to assist antagonists given sufficient IC reasoning but assisting an antagonist doesn't mean you get to act like one . If in doubt, ask an admin if a particular action is okay. Depending on the level of assistance, sufficient IC reasoning could be simply treating everyone who goes into medbay regardless of them being a murderer or not, all the way to being threatened under pain of death by an antagonist to do something.

[ABearInTheWoods]

it looks like the player was trying to report something that looked like metagaming and this got ignored because everybody assumed intentions.

[oranges]

it was probably ignored because proving intent of metagaming is specifically fucking hard unless you're actively catfishing two people you've noted for this behaviour in the past.

So I don't know what OP expected.

[Jembo]

I wouldn't call it metagaming maybe some form of shitty metafriending and I'd call it greytiding / griefing. I mean just looking at the logs I was able to control copy I get a few gems like this. Also if I can be frank, I wouldn't even call it assumed intentions, I'd just call it I don't wanna bother digging though logs and PMing players and figuring out if they actually did anything shitty, or you know being lazy.

Also this is everything I was able to copy when I figured out Atlanta-Ned wasn't going to be following the listed rules / be lazy.

My logs : https://pastebin.com/Mzn4BrDq

(F) Archie Smirnov says, "You helped a traitor get away"
(F) Respii Varenos says, "Sure did."
(F) Respii Varenos says, "I regret absolutely nothing."
(F) Dante Smith says, "Kill her."
(F) Dante Smith says, "Execute her right now."
(F) Lexia Black says, "Epic"
(F) Archie Smirnov says, "No"
(F) Respii Varenos says, "Dante is trying to kill as many as he can."
(F) Respii Varenos says, "I can tell you that."
(F) Dante Smith says, "She let a traitor go."
(F) Respii Varenos says, "Oh nice."

Mind you the only thing said by Lexia in my logs not full logs was Epic, until they got knocked into crit. Despite this Respii felt compelled to assist them.

(F) Lexia Black whispers, "You are actually the worst person ever and i regret not spacing you the first time"
(F) Respii Varenos whispers, "Catfag."
(F) Respii Varenos whispers, "Fucking cat faggot."

And deadchat
(F) DEAD: Respii Varenos says, "Lexia, I gave an attempt because I saw you do absolutely nothing."

(Which is a lie, because he was one of the people chasing after me before I got spaced by Lexia.)

(F) DEAD: Josh Morris asks, "Respii were you an antag?"
(F) DEAD: Respii Varenos says, "No."
(F) DEAD: Respii Varenos says, "I just didn't see lex do shit"
(F) DEAD: Josh Morris asks, "But you went out of your way to help them against sec?"
(F) DEAD: Respii Varenos says, "I do that for a lot of people."

[imblyings]

stealing a prisoner + batoning the officer is shitty, certainly makes the player valid, if done enough times might get the player on a shitlist no admin wants to defend them from etc but not necessarily bannable

acting like an antag refers to killing people fnr, setting off bombs, robbing the armoury and attacking/killing security who respond, etc. in most cases

3rd party ahelps may be taken into consideration but a part of considering whether someone was enough of a dick to get banned or not will depend sometimes on whether the primarily involved parties ahelp or not

not really actionable

[ABearInTheWoods]

Reopening because the player's core complaint still hasn't been addressed.

it looks like the player was trying to report something that looked like metagaming and this got ignored because everybody assumed the players intentions.

[ABearInTheWoods]

it was probably ignored because proving intent of metagaming is specifically fucking hard unless you're actively catfishing two people you've noted for this behaviour in the past.

So I don't know what OP expected.

The OP likely expected to be told their report was received and that the admin would keep an eye.

It's a suspicious activity report, I don't know why everybody assumes every admin help has to result in a banning.

Replying to such a report with the ic issue button wasn't proper. It makes the player rightfully assume their report was misunderstood.

[imblyings]

The player was told it was ic using a button that says something was IC, then when pressed for more, was told those specific actions were ok. Not the most stellar of adminning I've seen but it was functional even if it left hurt feelings.

[ABearInTheWoods]

And so i guess we are just going to ignore that using the ic issue button for a metacoms report is very likely to make players think they were misunderstood and/or ignored.

And I guess we are just going to ignore this chance for atl (or any admin) to improve how they communicate with the player base because for some reason admin complaints can only be valid if it results in a deadmining or something?

[imblyings]

a͊̿͆̑͊̚ȕͯͬ́̀s̍́̏̇ͮo͐͊̓pͬsͭ̑̊̍ - Today at 1:39 AM
not the most stellar adminning
but atlanta isn't telling the player to fug off
or being provocative
or aggressive
etc in pms
at most i make a mental note about atlanta
if it happens again i resolve it internally as a matter of first resort
by having a chat to him
stop exercising your host privilege in things like this
granted any mental notes i ahve are useless since i clock off soon
but the complaints remain in the forum and are referrable to

[imblyings]

If you read the numerous other admin complaints i've resolved, you'll see that I organize complaints into successful/closed on severity and usually if I had to take formal action. There are plenty of complaints in the closed subforum where I post about having a chat to an admin as an informal method of addressing something.

now stop dying on this small hill mso