[POLL]New rule 1 addendum: Extreme cases of Murderbone

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:10 am #37954

"Antag is not an excuse to see how many people's rounds you can ruin. There is a line at which murderboning without a semblance of thought or roleplaying will be punished. This varies from case to case, but it is unlikely you will not be aware that you are approaching it."

After a discussion in adminbus, I proposed an addendum to rule 1 as a restriction on the most severe cases of no roleplay murderbone; exploiting the most mechanically efficient systems in the game to decimate everyone on the station for the sole purpose of removing people from the round. This will not apply to hijack objectives as mass killing is a common means to that end.

Destructive tools such as atmos and the singularity that may result in many deaths would not be factored in either. They are too unpredictable and bring the round to an end as well as giving people a chance to respond by gearing up or running, whereas maximum speed ebow esword does not.

This will be in line with restrictions on antagonists camping the arrivals shuttle, attempting to cause server crashes, forced-ERP and mass recalling.

Cases like this will generally be reviewed by Scaredofshadows.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:15 am #37959

without a semblance of thought or roleplaying

Just wanted to emphasize this point.

I am in full support of this.

bockman22 · Post by **bockman22** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:18 am #37962

If you want to kill people, Do it. I do it and its fun and if you get mad fuck you. I dotn see why people get pissed when they die one round and cry on forums. Also you can improve by killing murderboners and learning skills

Nanotransistor · Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:22 am

I feel if antags shouldn't murderbone, the crew shouldn't murderbone them either. Make the rule apply to the crew when dealing with said traitors. If they can no longer kill anyone for no reason, maybe re-think the policies about valid killing them for just being antags.

ABearInTheWoods · Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:30 am

Can people not read the word "extreme"?

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:38 am #37972

Nope, I don't like this. Call me irrational, but once we start restricting antags like this we'll have tons of grey areas when it comes to defining mass murderbone and a general sense of fear as antag for ooc reasons. On top of this, some of my most memorable rounds were when I was watching as a ghost and there was one unstoppable crewmember who managed to kill the entire crew and escape alone, or in some cases being said crewmember and feeling the glory of your rampage paying off in the end. This addition to the rules is just a removal of fun and a step onto a large slippery slope.

I can back the compromise of recalling the shuttle fnr just so you can kill more people being punishable, because this is a very straightforward issue with very straightforward punishments that would be easy for both players and admins to deal with. An admin would just ask why the antag did it and if the antag could give a good reason, he would be let off, but if he was just murderboning he'd be told to stop and an admin could call the shuttle again.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:55 am #37977

I'm perfectly fine with this. Maybe people will stop thinking of SS13 as CoD in space now.

IcePacks · Post by **IcePacks** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:11 am #37983

This is stupid. Anyone can inhibit a traitor's progress, and if you want to take everyone out, that's fine. It's not easy, it's one of the hardest things to do in this entire game even with the odds stacked in your favor, and if you mess up once you're almost certainly gone for good. This is just ammunition for people who are mad that they got killed by an antagonist. The last thing this server needs is player-admin shitshows to extend to antagonist roles.

No. There is no extremity to what an antagonist does because there is no extremity to what can be done against them.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:24 am #37985

IcePacks wrote:This is stupid. Anyone can inhibit a traitor's progress, and if you want to take everyone out, that's fine. It's not easy, it's one of the hardest things to do in this entire game even with the odds stacked in your favor, and if you mess up once you're almost certainly gone for good. This is just ammunition for people who are mad that they got killed by an antagonist. The last thing this server needs is player-admin shitshows to extend to antagonist roles.

No. There is no extremity to what an antagonist does because there is no extremity to what can be done against them.

I agree entirely with this. It's just another line to be shittily drawn by admins at different points with no clear line set.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:08 am #37993

IcePacks wrote:This is stupid. Anyone can inhibit a traitor's progress, and if you want to take everyone out, that's fine. It's not easy, it's one of the hardest things to do in this entire game even with the odds stacked in your favor, and if you mess up once you're almost certainly gone for good. This is just ammunition for people who are mad that they got killed by an antagonist. The last thing this server needs is player-admin shitshows to extend to antagonist roles.

No. There is no extremity to what an antagonist does because there is no extremity to what can be done against them.

Except there are dozens of policies that police what can be done to players suspected of antag behavior. Heance the shitshow about security policy. Antags don't need more snowflake protections against being shit just because they won the antag lottery.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:09 am #37994

CreationPro · Post by **CreationPro** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:18 am #37997

If you want to limit antags' actions in any ways, you'll have to start taking counter-measures against vigilantes, meta, powergaming and other funsies people will hate you for. And honestly, do we even need to? On high-pop round you barely ever see an antag succeed in his slaughter. If you manage to kill everyone... Well then, grats on being robust. Just don't prolong the round by recalling the shuttle. I still reserve my right to be MAD at people who kill me.

The only instance in which I'd support that change is Badger/Basil lowpop (2-20) rounds, in which murderboning is way lamer.

Post by **Jordie0608** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:42 am #38000

This was essentially already discussed.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1508

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:49 am #38002

Get good. Murderboners always fall eventually. Honestly, the only case where this would make sense is on lowpop. Murderbonering on lowpop kills servers, but on highpop servers it barely matters and never really dents the population.

Incomptinence · Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:09 am

Um my main issue is stupid eternal shuttle recalls to keep the precious dead station to themselves. I would much prefer a rule against that (even though some admins will take initiative against it anyway) than requiring them to have a one liner primed to make it "semblence of role play. Also the problem with lowpop murder bone is probably due to the solo antag equation being MINIMUM TWO and having diminishing returns at higher population. The incomplete skeleton crews barely making the station run face the most antags per capita while fullsec + vigilante's face less.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:35 am #38037

I'd like to reiterate that this is for EXTREME cases, and scaredy would be handling so it's not 'just another line to be shittily drawn by admins'

Incomptinence · Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:00 am

You say that like it is in the proposed wording change instead of just the thread title. What is extremity of murder bone anyway, succeeding?

bockman22 · Post by **bockman22** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:13 am #38039

If someone kills the entire station with 50+ people. He should not be banned, but praised.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:48 pm #38060

Antonkr wrote:
IcePacks wrote:This is stupid. Anyone can inhibit a traitor's progress, and if you want to take everyone out, that's fine. It's not easy, it's one of the hardest things to do in this entire game even with the odds stacked in your favor, and if you mess up once you're almost certainly gone for good. This is just ammunition for people who are mad that they got killed by an antagonist. The last thing this server needs is player-admin shitshows to extend to antagonist roles.

No. There is no extremity to what an antagonist does because there is no extremity to what can be done against them.
I agree entirely with this. It's just another line to be shittily drawn by admins at different points with no clear line set.

This. Exactly this. Just another "rule" that can be enforced by admins when they feel like enforcing it. The only time admin intervention should be required during a murderbone is for them to call the shuttle, especially if people keep recalling it.

and SoS shouldnt be reviewing anything to do with murderboning. The last time he did that he ended up banning someone who then had to be unbanned soon after, right? No offense, but it doesnt seem like he views murderboning objectively.

Spacemanspark · Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:10 pm

Muderboning is funny the first time you see it/ do it.
After that, it's boring and dull, and contributes nothing.

Deirun · Post by **Deirun** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:54 pm #38076

I do not think that murderboning should be punishable, unless somebody constantly recalls the shuttle to continue their rampage.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:55 pm #38078

bockman22 wrote:If someone kills the entire station with 50+ people. He should not be banned, but praised.

Well no it's not exactly hard to slay incomptent people if you have subverted the AI.

peoplearestrange · Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:35 pm

ITT: Murderboners complain.

I think there's very little good reasoning for actual murderboner, specially on lowpop times. If people genuinely want a deathmatch type SS13 there are plenty of other servers that do that "well". Or ask the admins to throw in a highlaner/money round in occasionally to relieve the tension.

So long as admins actively warn people they are nearing what they consider the limit. Admins need to bwoink these people BEFORE they could be even considered for a ban. Possibly even a 3 strikes type thing.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:47 pm #38090

I'm against these kind of restrictions. I feel it stifles antagonist freedom and, as much as I loath to say, it sets a precedence in how antagonists should act by a OOC standard.

What if I, when I'm a antag for once, decide to kill off a good portion of a crew in a very unique way? Say I kill 30 people out of 40, would I get banned even though how I did was in a creative way? What is defined as being unique enough to not be warned/banned, what is this arbitrary limit.

All this rule is going to boil down to is how is the admin feeling at the time. As was demonstrated when SoS banned a antag for mass murder even though no such rule existed at the time to cap the amount of people that a antag can kill (Ignoring the fact SoS is the server owner, I'm judging him from a admin point of view).

If you want there to be less murderboning, tell Security to get their rear in gear.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:38 pm #38098

paprika wrote:
bockman22 wrote:If someone kills the entire station with 50+ people. He should not be banned, but praised.
Well no it's not exactly hard to slay incomptent people if you have subverted the AI.

I've also seen 50 people blunder into the same guy with hulk esword ebow in dark locker room stunt and die one or two at a time. It happens and its generally shit.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:54 pm #38116

>Base a rule upon the existence of "a line"
>Do not define where that line is

Open to admin abuse up the ass, this is SO subjective.

And no, as that other topic showed people don't want a de jure definition of a line either.

Redblaze3000 · Post by **Redblaze3000** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:32 pm #38119

No this is stupid. Why? All it promotes is more hate against server staff as there is no true line. An admin can decide any random antag that has killed more than his target is a 'murberboner' and ban them swiftly. Hell I expect some admin to eventually ban an entire op team if this rule is put in place as they kill tons of people.

captain sawrge · Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:38 pm

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1508
Wasn't there just a thread on this?

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:56 pm #38132

Stickymayhem wrote:I'd like to reiterate that this is for EXTREME cases, and scaredy would be handling so it's not 'just another line to be shittily drawn by admins'

Quoting because retards are reading the OP and then rushing to complain instead of actually reading the thread. Stop being retards, retards.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:08 pm #38136

cedarbridge wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:I'd like to reiterate that this is for EXTREME cases, and scaredy would be handling so it's not 'just another line to be shittily drawn by admins'
Quoting because retards are reading the OP and then rushing to complain instead of actually reading the thread. Stop being retards, retards.

One person could define extreme at 50 people, another could define extreme at 5 people

Post by **oranges** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:53 pm #38145

You should keep reiterating how extreme it is so we can keep voting no

Incomptinence · Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:57 pm

The proposed wording to be added also does not contain the word extreme.

You read less than we did if you think a thread title to be buried in the policy discussion forum will be the primary aspect of a policy.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:53 pm #38154

Completely fine with murderboning as long as its creative. Things like murdermules running down unsuspecting crewmembers in the dark tunnels of maint, only to leave blood tracks in its destructive wake. The hooded unknown that picks off the crew 1 by 1, using maint as their hide-away, only to see the light of the halls to grab the next unsuspecting victim.

Anything more then "i can spam an ebow down the hall and esword anyone unlucky enough to get caught by a bolt".

UtterNewbie · Post by **UtterNewbie** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:46 am #38162

Stickymayhem wrote:murderboning

I will fully support this only if it will be retroactively applied like all other policy changes as of late and you get a permaban for murderboning for a month straight. :^)

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:42 am #38194

peoplearestrange wrote:ITT: Murderboners complain.

I think there's very little good reasoning for actual murderboner, specially on lowpop times. If people genuinely want a deathmatch type SS13 there are plenty of other servers that do that "well". Or ask the admins to throw in a highlaner/money round in occasionally to relieve the tension.

So long as admins actively warn people they are nearing what they consider the limit. Admins need to bwoink these people BEFORE they could be even considered for a ban. Possibly even a 3 strikes type thing.

more like ITT admins trying to once again stop murderboning even though we already had a big poll where the playerbase voted very much in favor of allowing murderboning. You guys are worse than the US government and their internet censorship rules.

CreationPro · Post by **CreationPro** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:50 am #38196

Alex Crimson wrote: more like ITT admins trying to once again stop murderboning even though we already had a big poll where the playerbase voted very much in favor of allowing murderboning. You guys are worse than the US government and their internet censorship rules.

Oi hombre, it's not a unanimous opinion.

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:56 am #38197

Stickymayhem wrote:[The ruling] varies from case to case, but it is unlikely you will not be aware that you are approaching it.

Then why not cover it with Rule 1? If people know they're being dickish, they shouldn't be surprised when an admin contacts them.

And I, for one, love to observe murderbonerers and cheer on the last surviving guy with the rest of the ghosts.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:17 am #38204

Here's the thing, when is antag killing people OOC dick or IC dick? Why is it up to admins or the host to determine that line? Is there no room to improve as traitor? What happens when you complete your objectives, just try to get the shuttle called (which is really hard to do unless you explode parts of the station or kill a lot of people)?

What about the 'escape alone' objective, which is literally IMPOSSIBLE if you aren't lucky enough to stealth lock the airlocks in escape before someone finds out they're broken and emag the console. It's almost impossible to complete this without rampant murderbone or bombs in escape.

This is not something you want to change at an administrative level, because people will claim bias and that admins are retards and don't play the game etc etc fucking etc.

If you want my opinion, this is a thing that needs to be discouraged at a code level, by increasing the price of shit (you literally cannot buy anything but esword and ebow now if you go that route, they use up all your TCs) and just fucking removing escape alone. Escape alone is shit. Replace it with something else. Whenever I get it I see it as a 'welp time to mass murder people/emag everything for fun until I get arrested and ghost' rather than a unique challenge because there's literally no creative ways to complete the objective, at all.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:39 am #38208

paprika wrote:rather than a unique challenge because there's literally no creative ways to complete the objective, at all.

In order of least funny to most funny i've seen:
-Attempt to mass murder everybody
-Bomb the halls
-Plasma hellstorm the halls
-Bomb the shuttle mid-flight
-Weld the doors and break through the window
-Wall off the doors and windows and break through the front (only to forget to get inside a safe distance so he fell into space)
-Polysmoke the hallway
-Subvert the AI and have the engiborg wall off the escape hallway while a secborg tases anybody trying to get through
-Metal foam lube grenades all over the hallway (Thanks, Reed)
-Adamantine Golem entourage to throw everybody off the shuttle.
-100 potency bananas everywhere, tens of them in stacks in each door.
-Singulo in the hall
-Gold slime cores all over the hall.
-Giving the clown a box of flashbangs, funny but didn't actually succeed there.

Granted this shit happens all the time anyway, its just whether you're able to capitalize on it at the right time. Its still right up there with stealing a functional AI in terms of difficulty.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:00 am #38209

Saegrimr wrote:-snip-

The absolute bog standard way that people attempt to hijack the shuttle are really far more limited than the picture you paint. I would wager about 95% of hijackings occur via three methods.

Bombing the escape wing
Emagging the shuttle doors and console
Killing everyone

Mostly its a combination of the above three.

There are outliers, but for the most part the above three are the gold standard in hijacking the shuttle.

Hence why I really dislike the Hijack objective is because its one of the least freeform traitor objectives you can get. At least stealing the AI has more strategy to it (Even though its oft a crap shoot if you don't subvert the AI).

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:12 am #38211

Its either break in by force, subvert, or if you're lucky and happen to be a head of staff or trustworthy enough.. i've asked the AI to just let me card it to bring it back to centcom multiple times.

But yeah, that's just the things i've seen happen before in attempts to hijack the shuttle. I hate to admit that you're right in that 90% of the cases are just bombs bombs bombs. Emagging the shuttle is kind of required in all those scenarios.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:56 am #38225

Murderbone for no reason should be a bannable offense. I've been in many rounds where I was killed at roundstart because one of my colleagues pulled out an ebow and an esword and promptly started killing everyone. This is not fun, to experience or to watch.

peoplearestrange · Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:34 am

If I'm honest, even though I agree with the idea of the rule, its obvious that views are pretty mixed. Therefore it seems like it be a bad or even forced, idea to let this go ahead.

I think anything that the community is ultimately split on is probably a bad idea.

Incomptinence · Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:10 pm

How about we get more pro restart votes and just vote this sort bogey man away. There is literally a player controlled mechanic to fight utterly ruined rounds and it isn't used because funny ancient in joke ha ha ha.

Kuraudo · Post by **Kuraudo** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:01 pm #38283

I don't understand. We already massively said "No" to this in a previous topic, why bringing this up again ?

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:55 pm #38294

Nope. Never ever. This is a horrible idea.

The only things you mentioned that I can agree with are:

Forced-ERP = isn't that already an express ticket to permaville? A luxurious lakeside resort where all our brightest stars go to relax and soak up rays of the (long since removed) sun. Whether you're antag or not you get dunked so hard for this I need to go find an .ogg of a backboard breaking.

Shuttle recalls/preventing calls = it's obvious what you're doing when you do it. mmmmmmmmaybe even worth making an exception for an idiot who has to assassinate one target but screws up and goes loud early, and now they need to make sure before the shuttle can arrive.

If someone wants to stand at the end of the escape hallway like the goddamn gladiator and let all who approach taste blood and sand then so be it.

Sometimes you will get murdered in this game. With little cause or reason than "they could". Welcome to SS13.

IF WE WERE TO INDULGE THIS IDEA A MINUTE

...then we would also need to make additional restrictions to the other players on the server and their efforts to thwart the traitor. We would need to start setting Bay-style rules on who is allowed to antag hunt and what weapons people are allowed to use, because otherwise we'll have our antags running around in a world full of potential threats with their hands tied for fear of killing the wrong person and getting in trouble. Meanwhile any single assistant could potentially be packing a makeshift stun prod or other such thing and spell instant doom.

That's a horrible path to go down and I think this whole push for "More Roleplaying!" sounds good to say but nobody is really considering the further ramifications and balances it'll require to keep everything even and fun.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:23 pm #38309

Centcom automatically announces where people are recalling the shuttle from if it happens too often.

I don't think we need to limit recalls except in extraordinary circumstances. E.g almost everyone is dead.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:34 pm #38312

Ikarrus wrote:Centcom automatically announces where people are recalling the shuttle from if it happens too often.

Yeah really useful. The murderboner is probably loaded with weapons so lets tell people where to go to get murdered. Hell, if they have head access they can just walk onto the bridge and keep recalling the shuttle, assuming they have killed so many people that the station cannot mount any kind of defense anymore. Or if the command staff have no grasp of the situation and keep recalling so they can get their valids on.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:35 pm #38313

>extraordinary circumstances

I wasn't saying we shouldn't do anything. I'm saying we shouldn't over-enforce it because we have measures in place already to help players resolve it IC.

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:11 pm #38944

Ah, the good ol' line in the sand again.

As has been mentioned in multiple recent threads which touched on this problem either indirectly or by chance, the idea that a certain bodycount or particular intent (one which is debatable and undetectable, because hey, people will just lie) is necessary to curtail this sort of behavior is inherently flawed. An0n3 raises a particularly valid point in saying that if we have hardline restrictions they need to bleed into other areas of the game.

So where is that line drawn; who draws it? SoS? He's as fallible as the rest of us. (Note this isn't to say his decision would be inappropriate or wrong)

Regardless of the result a fair portion of the server is going to be upset about perceived restrictions on their behavior as an antagonist. While this is a valid opinion to have and superior robusting skills have always been a catalyst for some of the greatest legends on our server, (Burer, Pete, and to a much lesser extent Dante come to mind. This distinction will be important later for those who recognize these names) they neglect to understand that there's a world's difference between someone who spawns into the round and immediately attempts to rack up a bodycount with zero interaction and roleplay and those who, through just as much roleplay as robust skill, have come to be respected as titans of the station.

So with that in mind I propose that the policy shouldn't be about removing or restricting killing, it should be about preventing dickery and encouraging antagonists to participate in the round. Do not tell someone that they're unable to kill the whole station; ask them to come up with a decent IC reason for it before they start. (And before anyone points out the inherent ambiguity of "a decent IC reason," all I'm asking is that the events leading up to your glorious slaughter-spree are more in-depth than "I'm doing this because I'm an antagonist.")

That alone will go a long way towards damaging the deathmatch attitude that causes these complaints in the first place. I won't deny I'm biased regarding this though.

Should this proposed addendum to rule 1 be implemented?