[POLL] Assistant Maint Access

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

Bottom post of the previous page:

We are currently investigating the poll spamming and accounts.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:34 am #34117

Cheers dude.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:03 am #34123

Accounts should be restricted from voting unless at least two weeks old and posted.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:16 am #34127

Especially if these polls want any credibility to decide things like this.

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

Minimum postcount will be required, excluded FNR posts thanks to MSO.

Keep in mind that polls like this get advertised in OOC and there are a great many people who don't use the forums but will come to vote on matters important to them in a silent majority.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:19 pm #34145

I remember a controversial poll having over 50 votes on each binary option. Stop being babies.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:40 pm #34147

There's a difference between people having very wide opinions on something, and concerns that someone might be trying to rig the vote to their benefit.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:30 pm #34156

so if you lose it's rigged lol

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:33 pm #34162

Scott wrote:so if you lose it's rigged lol

Are you normally an idiot or is this a special occasion?

Do I have to explain why vote manipulation is bad and why its a good thing to ensure that its not occurring? Or are you just going to say "so if you lose it's rigged lol" no matter what?

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:29 pm #34170

Steelpoint wrote:
Scott wrote:so if you lose it's rigged lol
Are you normally an idiot or is this a special occasion?

Do I have to explain why vote manipulation is bad and why its a good thing to ensure that its not occurring? Or are you just going to say "so if you lose it's rigged lol" no matter what?

Assuming people arent making multiple accounts to vote, they are still players, aren't they?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:57 pm #34174

leibniz wrote:Assuming people arent making multiple accounts to vote, they are still players, aren't they?

Err, yeah.

I'm referring to people making multiple accounts to vote on a issue, not individual people voting.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:40 pm #34191

Steelpoint wrote:
Scott wrote:so if you lose it's rigged lol
Are you normally an idiot or is this a special occasion?

Do I have to explain why vote manipulation is bad and why its a good thing to ensure that its not occurring? Or are you just going to say "so if you lose it's rigged lol" no matter what?

You started crying about poll rigging because paprika linked an account that was made in September.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:50 pm #34196

We can go on, but the fact is that forum admins have the capability to check who voted. I know since on a old forum I was a admin on we had these issues during large votes, had a few users banned for it.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:07 pm #34227

Well, I suppose it would be useful to check if some of the accounts made this month share an IP.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:40 pm #34256

We already resolved this earlier today. It looks like no more than two or three extra accounts were made and voted. It will be dealt with.

The poll is for the most part fine. I'm not clear where they voted since I obviously do not have access but we got a few ckeys.

Remain calm citizens. Your democracy is pretty much fine and will be ignored as normal.

Incomptinence · Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:48 pm

Well okay then. Putting my precious vote back.

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:53 pm #34262

You can remove it, but the metric fuckton of complaints you'll get because of it, and as time has shown you will get probably a bit more than a metric fuckton, the change won't stick.

Antimattercarp · Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:01 pm

So, almost 50-50 split and no reasoning for why assistants should keep maint.
Edit: Why don't Sec have maint by default?

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:14 pm #34319

The only reason people are hesitating is because of the shitstorm that were to follow.

That should not be an excuse. The only people who would complain nonstop about this would be the shitlers that exclusively played assistant in the first place. If they throw a bitchfit and leave, well, nothing of value was lost.

Gamarr · Post by **Gamarr** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:24 pm #34322

Maybe the tool storage will get some basic access requirements to get in if we remove assmaint. Yays. I'm all for no maint by default for them, and turning maint into a more secluded area. Certain depts having maint access via backdoor doesn't bother me either, as the area accessed is often of varying quality since you only get the backdoor, and no actual doors within maint itself to cross from one section to another. Shitty assistants will find a way and adapt, once this hopefully goes through. Also, maint should be mazelike, it's a scaffolding, buffer-like area surrounding the station and carrying vital piping and wiring throughout the station. Being labrynthine should be a given.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:03 am #34364

Gamarr wrote:Also, maint should be mazelike, it's a scaffolding, buffer-like area surrounding the station and carrying vital piping and wiring throughout the station. Being labrynthine should be a given.

Actually no, the majority of piping and wiring is under the hallways, hilariously enough.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:25 am #34961

I don't know about this. For the sake of simply fun, assistant maint is a plus. For antagonist roles, whether they're the assistant or not, maintenance is a plus. And loot hunting in maintenance is one of the things a grey can do that isn't malicious or tiding, so taking that away from them would also be a negative. Not to mention, this kind of thing would happen every round:
"HoP, give us maintenance access"
The HoP replies "Sure, everyone come here" and the line is backed up for literally around ten minutes, with a high chance of people tiding out of boredom, or
The HoP replies "No, go away" and the greytide falls hard on him, potentially putting the HoP line out of action even longer and dropping bwoinks on everyone involved
I just don't see how the positives of this could outweigh the negatives, or even really see why the positives have any strength to them at all. In what way does it enable assistants to be bad to have a place where they can get out of the way of the rest of the crew?

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:53 am #34966

PKPenguin321 wrote:I just don't see how the positives of this could outweigh the negatives, or even really see why the positives have any strength to them at all. In what way does it enable assistants to be bad to have a place where they can get out of the way of the rest of the crew?

Why do you want to "get out of the way"? Don't you want to participate in the game? The main thing here is just to make Assistant less appealing to people, guiding them towards more useful jobs instead of always taking the one meant for newbies.

PKPenguin321 wrote:The HoP replies "No, go away" and the greytide falls hard on him, potentially putting the HoP line out of action even longer and dropping bwoinks on everyone involved

...You left out what would happen after the bwoinks: the greytide would get banned and everyone would be far better off.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:03 am #34970

kosmos wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:The HoP replies "No, go away" and the greytide falls hard on him, potentially putting the HoP line out of action even longer and dropping bwoinks on everyone involved
...You left out what would happen after the bwoinks: the greytide would get banned and everyone would be far better off.

A million times this. If your reaction to the HoP telling you that you can't have access where you want is to storm the HoP's office and get it for yourself you need to stop playing SS13.

Mxykikker · Post by **Mxykikker** » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:35 pm #35043

IMO removing assistant maintenance access will just encourage experienced players to suicide if they get assistant because they have even less to do.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:24 pm #35053

Mxykikker wrote:IMO removing assistant maintenance access will just encourage experienced players to suicide if they get assistant because they have even less to do.

As opposed to those same players skulking around picking up toys in maint and the valid hunting/breaking things. People keep missing the point that the idea is for veteran players to not WANT to play assistant because its not what the job is for.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:00 pm #35066

Cool we can weed out the absolute worst of our players by banning people who suicide at roundstart.

The whole point of antag is that it's a payoff for playing 20 rounds as a suicidal worker on a boring research station, get over it.

Mxykikker · Post by **Mxykikker** » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:34 pm #35071

paprika wrote:Cool we can weed out the absolute worst of our players by banning people who suicide at roundstart.

Are you serious? You managed to miss the whole point of my post. Assistants can get the most out their job by setting themselves a goal and maintenance can often be used to accomplish this goal. Whether it is used to gather tools and materials or used as the place to complete these goals.
IE: autism fort

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:07 pm #35079

Or go to cargo or engineering or HoP for access to get said tools

"But they don't give assistants tools!"

That's because most assistants are complete shitters. Thankfully that'll go away without loot hunting idiot assistants.

Assistants can get the most out of their job by assisting other jobs.

Fuck off.

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:13 pm #35084

I've never had trouble getting things from cargo as an assistant.

Granted, most people who know me as an assistant in cargo know me as the person that retiles their floors and builds turrets in their lobby so they might just assume I'm either no harm or I'm bored enough to make their life worse/more interesting if they don't give me basic supplies I ask for.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:29 pm #35389

Raven776 wrote:I'm either no harm or I'm bored enough to make their life worse/more interesting if they don't give me basic supplies I ask for.

This is a shitty way to approach social interaction and a lot of the reason people hate assistants.

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:56 am #35472

cedarbridge wrote:
Raven776 wrote:I'm either no harm or I'm bored enough to make their life worse/more interesting if they don't give me basic supplies I ask for.
This is a shitty way to approach social interaction and a lot of the reason people hate assistants.

Probably very true.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:26 am #35480

If someone wants into maintenance they will get into maintenance and tools are not some rare fairy dust like most of you think it is.

You say removing their access from maintenance might cause them to griff and then get banned. Why are they not getting banned in the first place? Also the whole "all greyshirts are shit" is doing nothing but fueling greytides. Treat people like shit they act like shit. It is very hard to assist someone when they automatically think you are up to no good.

People who suicide at roundstart just shows a bigger issue with the game and not just greyshirt players.

Incomptinence · Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:03 am

Maint doesn't cause assistants to loot. Spawning next to a stash of tools almost on par with what engineering has causes it. However we do need some general access tools to make rogue AIs not insanely broken. If you don't want assistants to be almost on par with engineers for breaking and entering you need to separate them from the tools, not a huge network of dark tunnels some short sighted fools want to be engineering's personal shadow realm.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:48 am #35534

Assistant spawns were changed in one of my recent PR's to spread out Assistant spawn points. So you no longer spawn in tool storage (Most of the time) and are not surrounded by 30 revolutionary's.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:55 am #35535

Mmm, strangely, back when I first started playing in 2006, Assistant was NEVER considered a job just for new players to learn the game. It was either A. Just another job. Or B. A job for when there were alot of people on(...yah, like never, high pop was 15 people)

Incomptinence · Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:16 pm

Random spawns isn't quite enough. I think tool storage should be cut up and distributed in front of departments like security, medical and service that could use some drat tools instead of the listless shits getting it first. Don't just make it inconvenient for the assistants, make it convenient for someone else. Arrivals arm is garbage and garbage people go there to get what they need to trash the station.

deputi · Post by **deputi** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:21 pm #35570

why was this not an in-game poll

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:22 pm #35572

Scaredy told me to make it here.

deputi · Post by **deputi** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:28 pm #35573

I do not think this poll accurately represents the player base

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:34 pm #35575

"I disagree with the results of this poll thus I will attempt to invalidate its results".

Assistant maintenance access is always going to be a hot topic just like Security antag (or access for that matter) is. I think a 50/50 result is pretty much spot on for what we're going to get.

It all comes down to, will removing assistant's maintenance access be a good thing or a bad thing for the game? We're not going to be able to come up with that answer in this thread, ultimately its all going to fall on SoS's lap to make a decision.

deputi · Post by **deputi** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:42 pm #35576

I just think the results of the poll might be different if we asked the server instead of the forum

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:56 pm #35579

Up to SoS. But there's been great arguments for removing it here and almost none for keeping it

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:33 pm #35581

paprika wrote:Up to SoS. But there's been great arguments for removing it here and almost none for keeping it

Says you

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:49 pm #35583

"Assistants should be able to be huge cocks with no responsibility and access jobs that actually need it don't have"

nah that isn't a good argument

deputi · Post by **deputi** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:44 pm #35588

From what I gather from this thread, people don't want assistants to have maint access for two reasons.
1. The people that play assistant are bad players that want to ruin everyone's fun and this change will somehow convince them not to be bad, be bad while not in maint or still be bad but as a different job. This punishes the good players and makes me wonder why the bad ones are not banned if they're as bad people say.
2. Maint is reserved for antags that don't want to get caught doing antag stuff in maint by assistants. I think the universal response to that is to git gud. Or maybe antags would rather want to get caught by the less friendly and more robust station engineers, atmos techs or security officers that get maint access.

Reasons for keeping maint access are:
1. Assistants can learn how to build stuff or just have fun building shit in maint without worrying that they're getting in anyone's way.
2. Most people with jobs don't bother with the half-built rooms in maint intended for fun gimmicks but assistants have the time to rebuild them.
3. New players can explore maint as an assistant to give them a taste of the layout and prepare them for technical jobs.
4. There are many useful things(coins, tools, utility belts, firesuits, fun stuff)in maint that assistants can get so they don't have to bother the station crew for.
5. Assistants can also be antags so removing their maint access would leave them with less department-specific benefits that can be used for antaging.
6. The assistants that really want to do something in maint without taking up a job slot would have to ask the HoP for access which would increase the HoP's workload and might have them unwilling to deal with assistants.
7. Assistants in maint can find dead bodies or breaches in space to help the station crew.
8. Assistants can use the maint tunnels to travel around the station to reduce getting in the way of people doing their job such as security officers going after criminals or medical doctors responding to injured people.
9. Assistants wandering maint are isolated and easy targets for changlings and cultists with stun papers.
10. Tunnel snakes rule!

I seriously think there should be a re-poll on the server instead of the forum to find out what the entire playerbase thinks and there should also be options for compromises such as giving security officers maint access along with assistants.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:07 pm #35595

Assistant is a job for gimmicks or new players. If you want gimmicks, ask the HoP for access change. I honestly never understood why a job with no responsibility whatso-ever got access to maint tunnels, even when security doesn't.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:12 pm #35597

deputi wrote: 2. Maint is reserved for antags that don't want to get caught doing antag stuff in maint by assistants. I think the universal response to that is to git gud. Or maybe antags would rather want to get caught by the less friendly and more robust station engineers, atmos techs or security officers that get maint access.

Sec officers don't get maint access you stupid shitter.

deputi wrote:Reasons for keeping maint access are:
1. Assistants can learn how to build stuff or just have fun building shit in maint without worrying that they're getting in anyone's way.

They can do this anyway

deputi wrote:2. Most people with jobs don't bother with the half-built rooms in maint intended for fun gimmicks but assistants have the time to rebuild them.

They can do this anyway

deputi wrote:3. New players can explore maint as an assistant to give them a taste of the layout and prepare them for technical jobs.

They can do this anyway

deputi wrote:4. There are many useful things(coins, tools, utility belts, firesuits, fun stuff)in maint that assistants can get so they don't have to bother the station crew for.

Invalidates cargo (lol i'll just get tools from maint!)

deputi wrote:5. Assistants can also be antags so removing their maint access would leave them with less department-specific benefits that can be used for antaging.

Antags have no problem getting past access restrictions and antag assistants should not have an advantage over other job slots as antag, if anything it should be hard mode antag

deputi wrote:6. The assistants that really want to do something in maint without taking up a job slot would have to ask the HoP for access which would increase the HoP's workload and might have them unwilling to deal with assistants.

Oh no the HoP has to do his job because some assistants might want maint access this is a valid reason for giving assistants maint every round

deputi wrote:7. Assistants in maint can find dead bodies or breaches in space to help the station crew.

Stupid, if anything this proves medical doctors should have maint, not assistants

deputi wrote:8. Assistants can use the maint tunnels to travel around the station to reduce getting in the way of people doing their job such as security officers going after criminals or medical doctors responding to injured people.

Equally stupid

deputi wrote:9. Assistants wandering maint are isolated and easy targets for changlings and cultists with stun papers.

No because they're usually powergaming tryhards who 'stumble' into cult bases in maint and scream CULT over radio

deputi wrote:10. Tunnel snakes rule!

Grey tide apologist meme?

If you really want to force the 'grey tide' stereotype, wouldn't forcing assistants to break into maint and hack in to get loot actually do that better than keeping it?

deputi · Post by **deputi** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:41 pm #35608

Sec officers don't get maint access you stupid shitter.

Relax, I meant security officers that get maint access from the HoP because that's what most officers do.

They can do this anyway

It'd be pretty hard without maint access.

They can do this anyway

It'd be pretty hard without maint access.

They can do this anyway

It'd be pretty hard without maint access.

Invalidates cargo (lol i'll just get tools from maint!)

Cargo can't get you everything and if no one is at cargo at the time it's better to get the tools from maint rather than break in.

Antags have no problem getting past access restrictions and antag assistants should not have an advantage over other job slots as antag, if anything it should be hard mode antag

The only way to get into maint for an antag shouldn't be to get an emag, agent card or to hack every door. They can also get IDs from assistants for maint access. Antags with jobs have much greater benefits than an assistant's such the chef's gibber, chemist's chemicals and the engineers access to the singularity so I think it's fair. The chance of being discovered in maint is pretty hard mode too.

Oh no the HoP has to do his job because some assistants might want maint access this is a valid reason for giving assistants maint every round

The HoP is usually only available at the beginning of the round and probably won't respond to an assistant that wants maint access.

Stupid, if anything this proves medical doctors should have maint, not assistants

Having maint access as a doctor would be nice but I don't think it's really suited for them because doctors must focus more on making people not die rather than finding dead bodies while assistants have the time seek out dead people should they choose to be helpful.

Equally stupid

I don't think it's stupid that assistants prefer to travel by maint so they don't have to deal with other people or get stuck in crossfire.

No because they're usually powergaming tryhards who 'stumble' into cult bases in maint and scream CULT over radio

Having their cult base discovered leaves no one to blame but the culitsts. Runes shouldn't be left lying around and assistants aren't the only people capable of discovering them. Assistants lurking in maint are great targets for the cult because they're usually alone and no one will notice if they're stun papered in maint.

Grey tide apologist meme?

No, just a joke m8.

If you really want to force the 'grey tide' stereotype, wouldn't forcing assistants to break into maint and hack in to get loot actually do that better than keeping it?

No, grey tiders get banned but I'm guessing they aren't which is why people are getting so angry.

I really think there should be a server poll so everyone can find and vote on this without needing a forum account that has a minimum post count because this is a pretty big thing.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:12 pm #35616

deputi wrote:
Sec officers don't get maint access you stupid shitter.
Relax, I meant security officers that get maint access from the HoP because that's what most officers do.

YOU MEAN EXACTLY LIKE ASSISTANTS SHOULD DO?

Dude go back to your stun prod making you might get behind on your quota.

deputi wrote:]I really think there should be a server poll so everyone can find and vote on this without needing a forum account that has a minimum post count because this is a pretty big thing.

Excuse me but no we should have players who actually play on our server frequently and contribute to the community on the forums making these decisions not grey tide griefer #3412

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:40 pm #35625

paprika wrote: Excuse me but no we should have players who actually play on our server frequently and contribute to the community on the forums making these decisions not grey tide griefer #3412

>Forum Users
>Playing Frequently

I am against this change because it specifically denies enjoyment to many people for no purpose other than to deny them enjoyment. This is spiteful and mean.

Should assistants have maintenance access?