[Quartzcrystal] Arumashi - Assistant permanent jobban

[Kuraudo]

Byond account and character name: Arumashi - Alexander Herresca

Banning admin: quartzcrystal

Ban reason and length:

"24-Sep-2014 | Banned from Assistant - Stunned, cuffed and stripped a just-joined and lagging captain of his ID for no justifiable reason. You've been given an assistant job ban once before to encourage you to be productie/not a shit. Appeal this job ban on the forums in at most 2 weeks. ~quartzcrystal "

Your side of the story:

Captain joins in minutes after the round starts, i proceed to arrivals to meet him and take his ID. I see him still in the arrivals shuttle, proceed to cablecuff him and snatch his ID.
Security catchs me almost instantly. Moments later, i'm being contacted by an admin. I explain him my plan; Taking cap's ID, giving myself all access and the title "Goldman Spess Speculative Funds CEO", and putting in motion a gimmick where i harass the heads for them to pay off the loans the Goldman Spess supposedly gave them. My intention was to give the captain his ID back as soon as my ID was changed. But nope. Ban.

Why you think you should be unbanned:

The real question is: Do i really deserve an assistant permaban for trying to set-up a funny gimmick as assistant ? The drawback being the theft of the Captain's ID, but thefts are supposed to be handled IC.
And i was swiftly punished and incarcerated by a group of security mens, rightfully applying stunbatons to my head before throwing me into a cell for, like, 5 minutes. The duration of my sentence was set at the Captain's demand.
To sum up; i got permabanned from a job; for a crime that deserves in the eyes of the victim itself, a 5 minutes sentence.
Giving people assistant jobban to "encourage them to be productive" is not going to work. The ability to harm, steal, or just do nothing in a round, is not exclusive to the assistant job. It also implies that i'm doing nothing else than play assistant and be a shithead, and this is false. I play many more jobs and most of them are ungrateful. (Sec officier, cargo tech, lawyer, Captain, etc...)

[QuartzCrystal]

First, the reason why I gave you a permanent assistant job ban was so that way you would have to come and appeal on the forums.

Second, you clearly have not learned anything from the ban. Almost immediately upon the captain joining the round (which everyone sees with the captain-join message) you cuffed and stripped him. He wasn't even fully connected yet to the round. While it's true you had no way of knowing this, it is true you had a way of knowing that what you were doing is shit. Being an assistant isn't a licence to be a shitlord, and while it certainly is not a bannable offense to steal an ID, you had been warned with an assistant job ban before. Clearly you being an assistant is not conducive to propagating fun on the server.

Appeal denied. I'll request this not be locked quite yet as to give any higher ranking admins time to potentially over rule my decision.

[Kuraudo]

First, the reason why I gave you a permanent assistant job ban was so that way you would have to come and appeal on the forums.

Wow. Hold the phone right there. I don't really understand. You gave me an assistant permaban, to "lure" me into the forum, to get to deny my appeal ?

Second, you clearly have not learned anything from the ban.

Why ? Tell me one example of me violating the server rules since the 24th of September.

Almost immediately upon the captain joining the round (which everyone sees with the captain-join message) you cuffed and stripped him. He wasn't even fully connected yet to the round.

One full minute passed by between the moment he signed in, and the moment i stole his ID. I was near the west side of the bridge and had to go all the way back to arrivals to get to him. I play this game since five years and that never happened to me. I never had to wait one minute from the moment i choose my job, and the moment i'm able to play, even when playing from a shitty netbook. I don't know what happened to him, and this is irrelevant to the case.

While it's true you had no way of knowing this, it is true you had a way of knowing that what you were doing is shit. Being an assistant isn't a licence to be a shitlord, and while it certainly is not a bannable offense to steal an ID, you had been warned with an assistant job ban before. Clearly you being an assistant is not conducive to propagating fun on the server.

Appeal denied. I'll request this not be locked quite yet as to give any higher ranking admins time to potentially over rule my decision.

There is no grey area when it comes to banning people, either you break the rules and get banned, or you don't and no punishment other than IC is applied.
Claiming otherwise create ambiguity and can lead to severe abuse.
Here's the rules in that matter:

Theft, assault, annoyance, false arrest, sentence times etc. are in character matters. Unless it is extremely excessive or griefy, it is not an admin matter.

Does my actions as i described them, appear extremely excessive or griefy to you ? To the point of warranting a perma jobban ?
If i wanted to, i could very well do the same thing, playing another job. So, what's this ban achieves beside altering my ability to enjoy the game, by putting out of my reach a job i used to pick ?

You admitted that stealing an ID doesn't warrant a ban. This is a step forward.
Then why i'm being jobbanned for exactly ? Not bringing "fun" to the server ? Didn't i told you that i was trying to setup a gimmick and intended to give the Captain his ID back ?

[Hibbles]

Here's my issue. You were banned before for negative conduct as an Assistant, right? So this isn't just what happened right that moment, this is an ongoing issue, and the issue is your conduct. I honestly believe you just wanted to set up some gimmick and weren't planning to kill the Heads and grey tide rise up stationwide etc. Because you know we'd punish you for that.

The entire idea that you think it's okay to swipe the Captain's ID when he arrives is not great. Individually? Might not be worth a ban. Different admins would feel differently about it. But can you see why an admin might conclude you have a pattern of using the grey shirt as an excuse to do grief-y things?

I know it sounds absurd and lame, but just ask next time. Occasionally the HoP, or Captain, or somebody important, will just say 'fuck it', or you'll get an HoP traitor who will do it hoping you'll grief, or something. Yeah, you're almost always going to get laughed at, but maybe you should do gimmicks you can get away with without having to swipe it? Plus, giving yourself all-access, I've found, is a great way to become a heavily-hunted fugitive. I know as HoS I want Assistants who give themselves access caught immediately, since it has the potential to go really bad.

[bandit]

I think this captain was me (I remember ahelping when I latejoined as captain, my connection was being a shit, and I connected to find myself ID-less; the timing matches up.) I don't give a fuck about your stupid gimmick. Your gimmick does not come at the expense of my round, especially when I literally was not able to retaliate because of my connection issues. Stealing the captain's ID means the captain can't fucking go anywhere or do anything or access the equipment he needs to defend himself. Not to mention the potential for this to ruin the round for anyone else if you decided to hand out all-access willy-nilly (which, y'know, is not exactly off the table for an assistant who steals the captain's ID).

tl;dr: Fuck you, sympathy denied.

[Saegrimr]

Pretty sure the arrivals shuttle is off-limits, even to antags. Its one of the few things we will bwoink antags about.

[Kuraudo]

I honestly believe you just wanted to set up some gimmick and weren't planning to kill the Heads and grey tide rise up stationwide etc. Because you know we'd punish you for that.

Well, thanks for believing me, but the other part of your sentence is just wrong. I don't set up my in game demeanor out of fear of the banhammer, like a puppy that took enough slaps with an old newspaper and learned not to poop on the living room carpet. I genuinely respect the rules, but i can't respect rules made up on the fly, like the one that was used to jobban me from assistant.
Other than that, i appreciate the fact that you seem to understand the matter.

Individually? Might not be worth a ban. Different admins would feel differently about it. But can you see why an admin might conclude you have a pattern of using the grey shirt as an excuse to do grief-y things?

I get what you're saying but this is a source of incertainty for the players. The rules should be clear on what get you banned or not, this should never ever depend on the admin mindset, the fact he stubbed his toe getting up in the morning, etc.
We should have a discussion about Head's ID theft, and the situations in which it's not ok to steal them.
I propose setting up a standard of urgency in the rules. Let me explain. If you're a non-antag, taking a Head's ID must be justified by some sort of urgency against a threat to the station or your life.

tl;dr: Fuck you, sympathy denied.

1- I didn't asked for your sympathy
2- Sec get you your ID back
3- Like i said two times already, you were going to get your ID back as soon as i finished putting access on mine. My plan was to put it in a locker in arrivals and PDA you about it. But security got me in the arrivals security checkpoint.
4- If me taking your ID left such a deep scar on your soul, why insisting to give me 5 minutes brig time instead of perma or execution ?

Pretty sure the arrivals shuttle is off-limits, even to antags. Its one of the few things we will bwoink antags about.

I checked and that's not in the rules. I don't tune my behaviour based on unwritten rules.

You could've pulled HoP, done the ten minutes of round-start ID changes, then ran exactly this same gimmick.

The advantage of being assistant is that you have no responsibility. Taking the HoP slot and using it for gimmicks, thus abandoning your duties, is one of the worst thing you can do, since HoP is a potential Captain, and one of the most important jobs on the station. HoP duties doesn't expire past the 10 minutes mark. This is a violation of rule 6 and a shitty mindset to have.

[QuartzCrystal]

Just a few points of clarification.

Permanent bans (be them for jobs or otherwise) force you to come to the forums to prove you have learned your lesson from the ban. It's not to lure you, it's to encourage you to think about why you got banned and to convince the admins that you deserve to have it lifted, which you haven't done. You've only argued against it poorly.

Also, there are a lot of rules we don't have specifically listed. Yes this is problematic, but we do have rule 0. We've now had a headmin weigh in on the issue and back up my original intention with the ban (more or less).

[Kuraudo]

Just a few points of clarification.

Permanent bans (be them for jobs or otherwise) force you to come to the forums to prove you have learned your lesson from the ban. It's not to lure you, it's to encourage you to think about why you got banned and to convince the admins that you deserve to have it lifted, which you haven't done. You've only argued against it poorly.

Also, there are a lot of rules we don't have specifically listed. Yes this is problematic, but we do have rule 0. We've now had a headmin weigh in on the issue and back up my original intention with the ban (more or less).

Today, i played a round as librarian, where the quartermaster was an absolute shit. He built a communication and ID console, made himself an army of assistants, giving them weapons and all-access. He then proceeded to threaten the station about making a singularity into cargo if his demands are not met. He started to abduct people coming too close to cargo for his taste. I was stunned, cuffed and abducted because i took pictures of cargo. The clown suffered the same fate.
I adminhelped the issue, the admin told me the guy was being shit but nothing was done. After 20 minutes of adminhelp and unnecessary conversation, I was demoted and left to rot in disposals. I couldn't get out and suicided out of frustration.

Yesterday, i was a cargo technician. Some assistant disguised as a bear, wielding a fire axe came to harass my co-worker, i got out and gave chase, trying to disarm him to give his axe to security. He killed me with it. I adminhelped but was answered that being a vigilante was wrong and it was my fault i got killed. The word "banbaiter" was even thrown at some point.
The said assistant continued to fuck around, sparking chases with security, breaking into place like genetics and "requiring powers", but that's not the worst part.
The worst part is that, before the shuttle docked, he managed to murder other people following the same course of action that led to my death.

Those two guys clearly fucked my round, and other people's round, with no acceptable justification. I adminhelped both time and they got NOTHING.
The reason i'm not making a topic about those two guys is that i'm already busy appealing my own jobban.
When i see such double standards, you'll understand when i say that i'm not going to apologize for supposedly being a bad boy because this is as unfair as you can get.
What's the lesson to be learned precisely ? It's not okay to take/steal/borrow the Captain's ID ? Get it written in the rules then. For the best interest of everyone. Unwritten rules create multiple behavioural "grey areas" and a sense of insecurity among the playerbase. You ultimately don't know what's gonna get you banned.

[QuartzCrystal]

Using examples of other people being shitty is not an excuse. It's not "fairness". You also don't know for certain that those players weren't dealt with. I was online when you adminhelp'd the axe thing, I'm not even going to touch on it because it has nothing to do with your current appeal.

Again, it's rule 0. Headmin hasn't over ruled my decision and you are giving me no reason to unban you right now. I'm going to say this appeal is denied for the time being.

[Hibbles]

It is literally not possible to make rules for every situation in this game. Not just that we don't want to, it is not possible. Try, sometime, for your own amusement, to think up how many rules you'd need to get it all out there. That's why we have Rule 1, don't be an asshole. Things are always going to be in the grey area, that's why we have admins here to make rulings and make things clear. Hopefully. Other people being shit doesn't defend you, that's not how logic works. Your case is your case.

Tbh, this situation would probably have been over already if you showed self-awareness about this and just agreed not to do it again, since obviously it's considered a bad thing, whether you agree or not. Your ability to nick the Captain's ID at Arrivals is not critical to enjoying SS13.

Or if it is, then bad news...

FAKE EDIT: This is seriously a great case of how to make your own situation worse when this didn't need to be a big huge deal at all.

[Kuraudo]

Ever heard of a fortiori argument ? It's saying that, if killing a cat is punished by the law, killing a human being is ought to be followed by punishment.
If the two cases I talked about led to no punishment, then in a logical and fair system, borrowing the captain's ID can't get you banned. If I am an asshole by rule 1 standards then surely those two dudes are Hitler.
People can set up rules at the scale of a society, a town, a corporation etc. I don't see how we cannot cover all the angles in a spaceman 2D game. Other servers did it.

What's critical about me being able to enjoy the game is that I don't get to explain myself about violating an imaginary law. You're asking me some kind of Xerxes-like repentance "You'll get everything you want. If you kneel. Admit you were wrong by violating a rule that doesn't exist"
Today it's about the captain's ID. And tomorrow ? Will I (or someone else) get to write an essay to explain myself why I should see my jobban from warden lifted because setting up barriers is not forbidden by any rule ? Because rule 1 and 0 can be used by whatever admin to say "Fuck you" to the player ?
This is a serious question that go far beyond my case.

As I'm writing this, Bryce Pax is being asked not to trespass in other characters workplaces. Since when trespassing get out of IC issues to enter bannable territory ?

A few days ago, some poor dude won a permaban because... He murderboned as a traitor. His ban was lifted only after he literally begged for it. Seriously guys ?!

Understand me. I'm not a griefer, but I feel uneasy about setting what's going to look like a precedent, validating this approach and basically saying "Yeah, I accept to be held accountable to imaginary laws, and I accept that people who did much much worse than me get away with their shit."
Admin appreciation and rule 0 should not serve as excuse to let this kind of double standards happen.

[CreationPro]

>Captain joins in minutes after the round starts, i proceed to arrivals to meet him and take his ID. I see him still in the arrivals shuttle, proceed to cablecuff him and snatch his ID.
>I HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG, IT'S NOT IN THE RULES, THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLEASD ASADFDAF DF D

I am fully in support of this ban.

[Kuraudo]

>Captain joins in minutes after the round starts, i proceed to arrivals to meet him and take his ID. I see him still in the arrivals shuttle, proceed to cablecuff him and snatch his ID.
>I HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG, IT'S NOT IN THE RULES, THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLEASD ASADFDAF DF D

I am fully in support of this ban.

He said, after quoting 1/4th of my story.

[CreationPro]

Except that it's the entire fucking story. You snatched a captain's ID while he had connection problems. You also see nothing wrong with it.

Stay banned.

[Kuraudo]

Except that it's the entire fucking story. You snatched a captain's ID while he had connection problems. You also see nothing wrong with it.

Stay banned.

The entire story is the entirety of what I wrote about it. Cutting it out to read only what you want to read is of bad faith at best, proof of impaired cognitive abilities at worst. Good day sir.

[CreationPro]

Absolutely hopeless.