Meson Changes Discussion

[Chocodemon]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/27409

What are people's thoughts on this change? It seems to be pretty controversial.

Potential things to talk about:

How does it affect Shaft Miners? Does it make mining harder or more tedious?
How does it affect other jobs that may require using Mesons?
How does it affect Free Golems?

---
Personally as someone who has played as a Shaft Miner before and after the changes, I find this change unnecessary and makes mining more tedious, especially since the change was to make tunnels and non-existent "secret rooms" hard for miners to see in advance.

[Armhulen]

good for the actual lavaland atmosphere that was suggested but in practice will probably be shit

[Super Aggro Crag]

Why don't they just make lead walls that you can't see through

[Incomptinence]

Free golems will explode off into the stratosphere and not need to do their kinda unique near blind rock clearing mining technique of just resonating everything into open space at the start.

I sorta like that but I despise every mining mesons "immersion" change because a nearly completely black screen when you dig a 1 wide tunnel is hardly thrilling immulsions.

[ShadowDimentio]

We've tried this fifty god fucking damn times and it's always awful and gets reverted.

STOP FUCKING DOING IT I HATE IT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[D&B]

It's pretty fucking comfy tbh

[Armhulen]

good for the actual lavaland atmosphere that was suggested but in practice will probably be shit

It's pretty fucking comfy tbh

we know

[Hatfish]

It's actually not that bad at all right now, I can see it improving greatly once chasms are more visible though.

[Dr_bee]

remove chasms and this change will be tolerable. as long as there are instant kill floor tiles that exist old style mensons will be preferred over atmosphere just so you dont get insta-dead from walking into your plasma cutter beam too fast.

[D&B]

remove chasms and this change will be tolerable. as long as there are instant kill floor tiles that exist old style mensons will be preferred over atmosphere just so you dont get insta-dead from walking into your plasma cutter beam too fast.

"I don't want to be responsible for my own safety so please put pads on the corners so I don't hurt myself for running without looking where I'm stepping."

[Dr_bee]

remove chasms and this change will be tolerable. as long as there are instant kill floor tiles that exist old style mensons will be preferred over atmosphere just so you dont get insta-dead from walking into your plasma cutter beam too fast.

"I don't want to be responsible for my own safety so please put pads on the corners so I don't hurt myself for running without looking where I'm stepping."

This would be true if the lighting system didnt break often enough for it to be an issue. I dont mind not being able to see through walls so much, its the not being able to run off lighting with mensons thats the problem.

[Lazengann]

I don't want to use mesons ever now, it's too fuckin dark

[ShadowDimentio]

remove chasms and this change will be tolerable. as long as there are instant kill floor tiles that exist old style mensons will be preferred over atmosphere just so you dont get insta-dead from walking into your plasma cutter beam too fast.

"I don't want to be responsible for my own safety so please put pads on the corners so I don't hurt myself for running without looking where I'm stepping."

>Can see three tiles away from you
>Chasms are slightly different dark turf on dark turf
>You move three tiles in a quarter of a second
>Also lighting is fucky at best

Haha yeah man I should just git gud and avoid the thing you can't see coming until it happens that instantly and permanently kills you that could be absolutely anywhere on lavaland.

Fuck off.

[Hamfam77]

remove chasms and this change will be tolerable. as long as there are instant kill floor tiles that exist old style mensons will be preferred over atmosphere just so you dont get insta-dead from walking into your plasma cutter beam too fast.

"I don't want to be responsible for my own safety so please put pads on the corners so I don't hurt myself for running without looking where I'm stepping."

>Can see three tiles away from you
>Chasms are slightly different dark turf on dark turf
>You move three tiles in a quarter of a second
>Also lighting is fucky at best

Haha yeah man I should just git gud and avoid the thing you can't see coming until it happens that instantly and permanently kills you that could be absolutely anywhere on lavaland.

Fuck off.

Arent you the guy who always tells other people to get good when they complain about a change, kind of like what you're doing?

[ShadowDimentio]

Usually yes, but I'm really bad at seeing dark things on a screen so chasms are the exception because failing to see a slightly differently colored turf on lavaland before walking over it shouldn't gib you, especially now that you can't ever see them beforehand.

They're by and far away the most unfair thing in the entire game and the have no reason for existing except stupid lethality for lethality's sake. Not like lavaland isn't dangerous enough.

[Hamfam77]

Usually yes, but I'm really bad at seeing dark things on a screen

So again, this is just you wanting something changed because it's not favorable to you, yet other people are just bad when the pendulum swings the other way?

[ShadowDimentio]

You can git gud at counterplay and play smarter, such as not getting shot by the dude with the ebow.

You can't git gud at chasms. You can't fucking will yourself into seeing things better, asshole, especially not when you have just three tiles of leeway until you die.

It fucking pisses me off when faggots tell me to just "exde dodge the chasm" like fucker I WOULD IF I COULD BUT YOU CAN'T FUCKING SEE THEM

[ohnopigeons]

Why was this snowflake code merged with a 5-to-1 dislike ratio with the github arguments being generally against, with some very good points?

Did I mention this code was snowflake?

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

 /obj/item/clothing/glasses/meson
  	name = "Optical Meson Scanner"		  	name = "Optical Meson Scanner"
 -	desc = "Used by engineering and mining staff to see basic structural and terrain layouts through walls, regardless of lighting condition."		 +	desc = "Used by engineering and mining staff to see basic structural and terrain layouts through walls, regardless of lighting conditions."
  	icon_state = "meson"		  	icon_state = "meson"
  	item_state = "meson"		  	item_state = "meson"
  	origin_tech = "magnets=1;engineering=2"		  	origin_tech = "magnets=1;engineering=2"
  	darkness_view = 2		  	darkness_view = 2
  	vision_flags = SEE_TURFS		  	vision_flags = SEE_TURFS
 -	lighting_alpha = LIGHTING_PLANE_ALPHA_INVISIBLE		 +	lighting_alpha = LIGHTING_PLANE_ALPHA_MOSTLY_VISIBLE
  	glass_colour_type = /datum/client_colour/glass_colour/lightgreen		  	glass_colour_type = /datum/client_colour/glass_colour/lightgreen
 +	var/static/list/meson_mining_failure_excuses = list("seismic activity", "excessive lava", "ambient radiation", "electromagnetic storms", "bluespace disruption", \
 +	"gravity", "dust", "dense rock", "ash", "badly understood science", "radiant heat")
 +	var/picked_excuse
 +	var/mode = FALSE //if FALSE, is in normal meson mode.
 +
 +/obj/item/clothing/glasses/meson/Initialize()
 +	. = ..()
 +	picked_excuse = pick(meson_mining_failure_excuses)
 +	START_PROCESSING(SSobj, src)
 +
 +/obj/item/clothing/glasses/meson/Destroy()
 +	STOP_PROCESSING(SSobj, src)
 +	return ..()
 +
 +/obj/item/clothing/glasses/meson/examine(mob/user)
 +	..()
 +	var/turf/T = get_turf(src)
 +	if(T && T.z == ZLEVEL_MINING && mode && picked_excuse)
 +		to_chat(user, "<span class='warning'>Due to [picked_excuse], these Meson Scanners will not be able to display terrain layouts in this area.</span>")
 +
 +/obj/item/clothing/glasses/meson/proc/toggle_mode(mob/user)
 +	if(vision_flags & SEE_TURFS)
 +		mode = TRUE
 +		vision_flags &= ~SEE_TURFS
 +		if(ishuman(user))
 +			var/mob/living/carbon/human/H = user
 +			if(picked_excuse)
 +				to_chat(H, "<span class='warning'>Due to [picked_excuse], your Meson Scanners will not be able to display terrain layouts in this area.</span>")
 +			if(H.glasses == src)
 +				H.update_sight()
 +	else if(!(vision_flags & SEE_TURFS))
 +		mode = FALSE
 +		vision_flags |= SEE_TURFS
 +		if(ishuman(user))
 +			var/mob/living/carbon/human/H = user
 +			to_chat(H, "<span class='notice'>Your Meson Scanners have reactivated.</span>")
 +			if(H.glasses == src)
 +				H.update_sight()
 +
 +/obj/item/clothing/glasses/meson/process()
 +	var/turf/T = get_turf(src)
 +	if(T && T.z == ZLEVEL_MINING)
 +		if(!mode)
 +			toggle_mode(loc)
 +	else if(mode)
 +		toggle_mode(loc)

[iamgoofball]

Literally how is that snowflake wtf

[Chocodemon]

One of the negatives, I've noticed, is that you can't detect fellow miners nearby. This make it much more dangerous to detonate Gibbonite as they either won't notice or will notice too late that it's detonating. Of course they can be notified before the detonation but some are distracted by their own mining. It's another extra thing to worry about.

[D&B]

>Big red and yellow flashing explosive
>Five seconds of flashing that contrasts in a very noticeable manner

If they don't move and haul ass they would have died anyways to normal fauna or walking into lava tbh

[ohnopigeons]

Literally how is that snowflake wtf

Consider the fact that:
All of this was added (and more!) for the sole, singular purpose of preventing miners from seeing turfs.

That aside, as for specific details:
The entire addition of processing code

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

 +/obj/item/clothing/glasses/meson/Initialize()
 +   . = ..()
 +   picked_excuse = pick(meson_mining_failure_excuses)
 +   START_PROCESSING(SSobj, src)

 +/obj/item/clothing/glasses/meson/Destroy()
 +   STOP_PROCESSING(SSobj, src)
 +   return ..()

 +/obj/item/clothing/glasses/meson/process()
 +   var/turf/T = get_turf(src)
 +   if(T && T.z == ZLEVEL_MINING)
 +      if(!mode)
 +         toggle_mode(loc)
 +   else if(mode)
 +      toggle_mode(loc)

The (unexplained) ishuman conditionals (What about silicons?) and the logical structure in general

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

 +/obj/item/clothing/glasses/meson/proc/toggle_mode(mob/user)
 +   if(vision_flags & SEE_TURFS)
 +      mode = TRUE
 +      vision_flags &= ~SEE_TURFS
 +      if(ishuman(user))
 +         var/mob/living/carbon/human/H = user
 +         if(picked_excuse)
 +            to_chat(H, "<span class='warning'>Due to [picked_excuse], your Meson Scanners will not be able to display terrain layouts in this area.</span>")
 +         if(H.glasses == src)
 +            H.update_sight()
 +   else if(!(vision_flags & SEE_TURFS))
 +      mode = FALSE
 +      vision_flags |= SEE_TURFS
 +      if(ishuman(user))
 +         var/mob/living/carbon/human/H = user
 +         to_chat(H, "<span class='notice'>Your Meson Scanners have reactivated.</span>")
 +         if(H.glasses == src)
 +            H.update_sight()

All of the above are compounded by the fact that in all these changes there was a grand total of ONE comment in the code I quoted previously:

Code: Select all

var/mode = FALSE //if FALSE, is in normal meson mode.

[Remie Richards]

That code doesn't need comments, it's quite readable.
the only thing I see wrong there is the processing code + the fact "mode" is a shit variable name in context (which is presumably why it got a comment)

[Incomptinence]

Maybe just maybe the huge contrast between fully equipped professional miners and under equiped ghost roles and assistants created varied entirely different ways to experience lavaland?

Oh nah better make it suck for everyone on the assumption those nasty power gamers can't discern 1 tile thick walls by their sprite.

When they are avoiding tunnels and monsters, you know the thing the power gaming pros beeline for to get lavaloot.

In what universe is a miner avoiding tunnels and combat a seasoned power gamer?

[Hamfam77]

You can git gud at counterplay and play smarter, such as not getting shot by the dude with the ebow.

You can't git gud at chasms. You can't fucking will yourself into seeing things better, asshole, especially not when you have just three tiles of leeway until you die.

It fucking pisses me off when faggots tell me to just "exde dodge the chasm" like fucker I WOULD IF I COULD BUT YOU CAN'T FUCKING SEE THEM

You also can't will yourself to preemptively know the guy walking in front of you is going to pull out an ebow and stun you before you have a chance to process the action. All you can do is be prepared ahead of time.
The same thing you can do with chasms.

So get good, mate.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Shut up, fatty.

[ohnopigeons]

That code doesn't need comments, it's quite readable.
the only thing I see wrong there is the processing code + the fact "mode" is a shit variable name in context (which is presumably why it got a comment)

Comments aren't just for explaining how a code works, the code is very readable in that regard. However, comments are also needed to explain WHY that code is there, such as why there is an ishuman conditional which updates mesons and gives them a chat message for humans, but not for not-human mobs who are wearing mesons?

[Remie Richards]

That doesn't need a comment as it's likely an oversight, I'm sure they just forgot borgs can even get mesons.
Not every line of code needs to be justified.

[Dr_bee]

I still fail to see the reason for this change.

Mining was already deadly enough.

[Limey]

I really don't mind this change, I feel it adds to the aforementioned atmosphere of Lavaland.

[christ110]

I will say, I like the idea of mesons as it allows newbie miners to easily find ore, and avoid fighting fauna, but from what I can see, we're balancing lavaland only for the 10 most competent miners. Same with megafauna balance.

[D&B]

And why, pray tell me, should we adjust megafauna to be more doable to newbie miners?

[ShadowDimentio]

You can git gud at counterplay and play smarter, such as not getting shot by the dude with the ebow.

You can't git gud at chasms. You can't fucking will yourself into seeing things better, asshole, especially not when you have just three tiles of leeway until you die.

It fucking pisses me off when faggots tell me to just "exde dodge the chasm" like fucker I WOULD IF I COULD BUT YOU CAN'T FUCKING SEE THEM

You also can't will yourself to preemptively know the guy walking in front of you is going to pull out an ebow and stun you before you have a chance to process the action. All you can do is be prepared ahead of time.
The same thing you can do with chasms.

So get good, mate.

Yeah you can, you can read suspicious movements like him following you or getting really close to you before he whips out his ebow.

[Chocodemon]

So about a month or so has passed.

What are people's opinions on the meson nerfs now?
Has there been any word of the "secret ruins" that partially fueled the meson changes?
Do you feel that miners are faring better or worse?

[ShadowDimentio]

I still hate it but it at least got chasms nerfed so I'm happy about that at least.

[christ110]

Still hate it, just like i expected myself to hate it.

[Bombadil]

I still hate it but it at least got chasms nerfed so I'm happy about that at least.

Chasms still instakill. How is that in any fucking way nerfed? They glow now? Cool good luck when it lags though

[ShadowDimentio]

I know they're still retarded but at least they're marginally less so now

[Segmented]

So about a month or so has passed.

What are people's opinions on the meson nerfs now?
Has there been any word of the "secret ruins" that partially fueled the meson changes?
Do you feel that miners are faring better or worse?

Even with the antag freeze there's no hint of new ruins, most discussions I see focus on adding space ruins. No one really wants to mess with Lavaland. I still think the change is bad, and miners are still dying by the droves so I'm not sure if it even made a bit of difference.

[Bombadil]

So about a month or so has passed.

What are people's opinions on the meson nerfs now?
Has there been any word of the "secret ruins" that partially fueled the meson changes?
Do you feel that miners are faring better or worse?

Even with the antag freeze there's no hint of new ruins, most discussions I see focus on adding space ruins. No one really wants to mess with Lavaland. I still think the change is bad, and miners are still dying by the droves so I'm not sure if it even made a bit of difference.

Yeah people have just stopped adding new ruins in lavaland. We have practically fucking nothing. Do we even have wrath, and lust ruins? We are missing two of the seven deadly sins.

[Segmented]

What would even go in a Lust Dungeon? A bunch of naked catgirls?

[oranges]

They said lust, not things that make you want to vomit

[factoryman942]

Naked futa catgirls then?

[oranges]

I don't think you understood my comment at all

[Screemonster]

What would even go in a Lust Dungeon? A bunch of naked catgirls?

you get silently disconnected and forwarded to citadel

[Incomptinence]

Just fill a lust dungeon with altered face huggers that will gib you on gestation but produce no larva.

[Remie Richards]

Could unban ERP but only within the walls of the lust ruin :^)

[Bombadil]

Could unban ERP but only within the walls of the lust ruin :^)

That is actually funny AND PERFECT

[Yakumo_Chen]

Add dakimakuras but they can only be found in the lust ruin and cannot be removed from it

Also add an item that gives a target a non antag protect objective to the welder. cupid's bow or something

[calzilla1]

Could unban ERP but only within the walls of the lust ruin