robustin gang overhaul frankenstein's PR edition

[Kel]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/27954

its alive

[onleavedontatme]

It is not like he can make it worse

[Qbopper]

It is not like he can make it worse

any changes to gang, even if they end up bad, I don't mind because gang is just terrible (imo)

[PKPenguin321]

It is not like he can make it worse

any changes to gang, even if they end up bad, I don't mind because gang is just terrible (imo)

be careful with the "it is terrible by default" mindset, it is self perpetuating and obstructs genuine constructive feedback

[BeeSting12]

Sniper rifles need to not dismember and insta stun. Sounds like he's working on it already

[Dr_bee]

Gang is pretty much going to be team deathmatch so long as it is 1. easy to kill anyone who isnt in your gang and 2. there are no negative reprocussions for murdering as either security or a gang member.

I think moving to a more goon-style money goal based gang would be a step in the right direction for one, it means that the gangs have an incentive to keep the station intact and security doesnt need to go turbo-hitler and murder everyone who isnt implanted.

In general, the station shouldnt have a victory condition other than "the station is intact and functioning" security shouldnt fight the gangs, the gangs need to fight each other.

[BeeSting12]

Security's being removed,(from gangs) but in it's current state, security not fighting gangs is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[Dr_bee]

Security's being removed,(from gangs) but in it's current state, security not fighting gangs is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Not talking about it in its current state for one. Im suggesting moving over to a goonstyle gang, because their gang mode is actually fun.

[Qbopper]

It is not like he can make it worse

any changes to gang, even if they end up bad, I don't mind because gang is just terrible (imo)

be careful with the "it is terrible by default" mindset, it is self perpetuating and obstructs genuine constructive feedback

yeah, sorry, I just HATE gang

[ShadowDimentio]

Me too but truth be told gang seems to be getting decently playable and fun.

We'll have to see if it stays good though.

[Oldman Robustin]

Yea ive got a PR open for the nerfed (gang-only) sniper rifle. I usually use penetrator rounds so I didn't realize the sniper had a stun built into its default rounds (I think they're the only bullets besides det's that stun on impact). The new gun will do less damage, penetrate less, and have a significantly (though still material) lower dismember chance.

Ive played/observed a few rounds and im leaning towards making it more territorial (i.e. territory is more than just influence) and adding a way for gangs to bring the dead back into the game (100+ influence for 3 reinforcements armed with switchblade + gang outfit + spray + surplus rifle) since one of the more upsetting moments is for players who are just getting started when a rival gangster slips and shanks them. Given the shift towards a more combat-oriented mode, I think its fair. The reinforcement would pick from (dead) gangsters of that team before polling more broadly.

I'm also nearing the end of my "remove sec" PR. No more security, no more AI. It will simply be gangs and vigilantes. Vigilantes will have the means and incentive to fight the gangs - but they will still be susceptible to conversion unless they protect their skin or self-implant.

I'm hoping to see more use of the bling-system soon. I tried it out and while it was a big tradeoff instantly identifying myself as a gangster, I managed to survive and rack up lots of influence for our (doomed) last stand in the abandoned library.

I think that making gangs focused on turning their territory into something that feels like territory, letting them bring some of their dead back, and removing AI/sec interference should make for an exciting experiment. I think in its new form that Gang War will find its place as an intensive combat-oriented mode. My "60% dead = unrecallable shuttle" PR does need to be merged to prevent some of the worst tactics from becoming the meta though.

On a lighter note, I'm brainstorming a 2nd gang melee weapon and am open to all ideas. I also like the idea of gangs using implant breakers to convert enemy gangsters (you currently can!) but since the mode is avoiding stuns its hard to do anything except kill your opponents. I might add some kind of niche weapon that will encourage gangs to recruit enemy gangsters instead of outright killing them.

[ShadowDimentio]

Conversion needs a small delay like 1 second so that combating a leader is viable as a vigilante.

Also removing sec is a terrible idea, there being no sec at all or AI would be an instant tell that gangs are afoot and the subsequent raid on sec would either lead to everyone having guns and nuking the gangs or one leader converting the whole rush of people trying to get guns and then stomping everyone.

[onleavedontatme]

There wont be an armory either

[ShadowDimentio]

How are the vigilantes supposed to do shit then when every ganger starts walking around with friends and a gun while you have a single bar of soap if you're lucky?

I get that it's supposed to be mostly gang vs gang but the crew are hysterically underequipped to have any chance against the hysterically overequipped gangs.

You might be able to get one or two but even the best HoS-turned-greyshirt can't hope to win against the limitless gear and numbers of the gangs when a single hit on you and you're either dead or converted, especially not once the heat turns up and they just start killing each other on sight.

It's kinda dumb that the crew would have to resort to guerilla warfare in their own station.

[Steelpoint]

We will wait and see what Robustin has in mind then.

[Oldman Robustin]

Vigilantes will have access to soap pretty early on. I mean soap is really robust but combat potency aside you can use it to clean tags and it works like an inverse of the new tag mechanic. If you can keep a spot that you cleaned clear, it credit you with influence. If you're feeling ballsy you can also disarm someone's spray can and sprint off, use your tool to destroy it and you'll be credited with a one-time influence bonus.

If you can rack up a modest amount of influence you can grab stuff like the sawed-off improvised shotgun and get ballsier while confronting gang members. With a solid amount of influence racked up you can choose to "commit" to the vigilante path and implant yourself for a moderate influence bonus, the self-implant purchase will also include a camo HUD that will let you identify other vigilantes who have survived on that path. Gangsters will also have more gear at this point so you can destroy their weapons/bling/etc. for a nice influence boost.

The highest end items will include more advanced weapons that will assist you in attacking dominators. Among the most expensive items will be a "gangbuster" implant that will de-convert and mindshield a gangster, earning you a new ally who can help you in stopping the gangs.

I've finished most of the core Vigilante code but I haven't actually decided which items they can access or how their playstyle will differ from the gang's.

Their most important role is simply providing tension between crew and gang, so that no-sec Gang War isn't a bunch of people shouting on radio for conversion, because without sec that's going to be everyone's first impulse.

[ShadowDimentio]

Oh so vigilantes are a gang themselves in all but name, I see

Also the 1 second conversion time needs to be a thing. I'd be assblasted as fuck if I was a few points away from being a proper vigilante but got touched by a leader by accident and WELP YOU'RE A GANGER NOW

[Armhulen]

give vigilantes crossbows and shit

[Armhulen]

Oh so vigilantes are a gang themselves in all but name, I see

Also the 1 second conversion time needs to be a thing. I'd be assblasted as fuck if I was a few points away from being a proper vigilante but got touched by a leader by accident and WELP YOU'RE A GANGER NOW

If you get converted, then maybe you're not good enough for the vigilante path.

[ShadowDimentio]

Crossbows, crusade swords and crusade armor to destroy the heretics

Also not my fault that one guy touched me and it was over

[Armhulen]

They should get really strong stuff as it's hard enough to avoid getting penned.

[Steelpoint]

Vigilantes should be a semi-covert NT counter-insurgency unit that recruit station members to counter gangs.

You could lore it up that NT intentionally withdrew the security forces of SS13 to attempt to lure gangs out of hiding and into the open, then attempt to squash them one way or the other.

[Yakumo_Chen]

It's actually really ass when the entire gang has guns now, instead of just a few people the boss bought some for. It's hard enough playing security in this mode but now it's just really ass when someone can buy a full costume and hide in a locker for 10 minutes and they have snipers (2 hit kills, first hit is a stun) and turrets.

[CPTANT]

I like all the changes except the increased arsenal.

Gang should lose the sniper rifles, machine guns and also the uzi they already had.

[Kel]

updated op with the big update

[Haevacht]

its shit

[Steelpoint]

One of the biggest issues with the two cult game modes is that it is trying to place a square into a circle.

Whereas most game modes in the game meld well enough with the core station game play, however the cult game modes are in a awkward spot where it feels like they should be their very unique game unto itself, those modes seem like they would actually work very well in a clearly defined game of two factions duking it out, like Colonial Marines, yet you get one faction, the station, that has to figure out what is going on and the other faction, the cult, that gets the early advantage. This is not to mention how difficult/impossible it is to balance the cult against security, engineering, medical, science and cargo.

What I think Robustin is trying to do is create a pure game mode with as minimal outside, station, influence on the core game mode as possible. Security, command and the silicons are gone outright and the entire server is made aware at the start what kind of game to expect, no pretense of figuring out what's going on.

I'll be interested in seeing if this approach works.

[Oldman Robustin]

Mandatory Haev "I saw you talk about your PR in IRC so I had to find somewhere to shitpost about it" response means I'm on the right track.

[BeeSting12]

One of the biggest issues with the two cult game modes is that it is trying to place a square into a circle.

Whereas most game modes in the game meld well enough with the core station game play, however the cult game modes are in a awkward spot where it feels like they should be their very unique game unto itself, those modes seem like they would actually work very well in a clearly defined game of two factions duking it out, like Colonial Marines, yet you get one faction, the station, that has to figure out what is going on and the other faction, the cult, that gets the early advantage. This is not to mention how difficult/impossible it is to balance the cult against security, engineering, medical, science and cargo.

What I think Robustin is trying to do is create a pure game mode with as minimal outside, station, influence on the core game mode as possible. Security, command and the silicons are gone outright and the entire server is made aware at the start what kind of game to expect, no pretense of figuring out what's going on.

I'll be interested in seeing if this approach works.

This is my main doubt about it. You're basically turning it into a giant team death match, there's no way around that. At least previously there was a bare minimum of roleplay now it feels like it's taking the whole space station part of it away, like it's just a map for the TDM instead of a place for people to do their jobs while antagonists are fighting them.

[kevinz000]

No complaints as I've lost to gangs as security a single time.

[Haevacht]

i have legit complaints but you take criticism worse tham goofball so it's not worth elaborating lol

[kevinz000]

i have legit complaints but you take criticism worse tham goofball so it's not worth elaborating lol

Hahaha

[TrustyGun]

Gang deserves a complete rework and rewrite, instead of this weird thing where its being turned into TDM

[onleavedontatme]

Absent a rule rewrite that won't happen you can't have team modes that aren't a death match.

[captain sawrge]

Make it so u gotta buy darts off the space reservation n then sell em to the people on the station for pts

[Incomptinence]

With how it totally lacks secrecy from the first second I'm just expecting a head of stuff to squat on the bridge and call the shuttle every chance they get.

[ShadowDimentio]

>Gangs are TDM
>This is shocking to me!

It's literally in the title you chucklefucks

[Jacough]

give vigilantes crossbows and shit

Alternatively if their main tool for stopping gangs is gonna be soap bars, make them elite janitors. Some of their more advanced equipment could be things like a high pressure water backpack that knocks people back a couple of tiles while dealing moderate brute damage, steel toed galoshes that prevent you from slipping like normal ones but also deal bonus damage when kicking a downed opponent, janitor jumpsuits with ballistic plates weaved into them, and janicarts with mounted machine guns.

[Yakumo_Chen]

give vigilantes crossbows and shit

Alternatively if their main tool for stopping gangs is gonna be soap bars, make them elite janitors. Some of their more advanced equipment could be things like a high pressure water backpack that knocks people back a couple of tiles while dealing moderate brute damage, steel toed galoshes that prevent you from slipping like normal ones but also deal bonus damage when kicking a downed opponent, janitor jumpsuits with ballistic plates weaved into them, and janicarts with mounted machine guns.

oh my god this is both hilarious and genius. I want to see a game where this herd of janitors storms down the hallway on pussy wagons mounted with machine guns, firing down on anyone who dares pass near. Having them armored to shit in janitor riot gear, hosing down assailants who run at them like mad terrorists, then riddling their corpses with bullets, which they are then obligated to pass over with the scrubbers to clean. Their calling card is a pristinely clean corpse with a bar of soap shoved up its mouth, warning all who dare vandalize the station that the Nanotrasen Elite Cleanup Squad is there, ready to scrub the station of grime and crime.

[ShadowDimentio]

Viscera Cleanup Detail.

Both cleans and makes viscera.

[BeeSting12]

Security is there to keep the gangs in check and after observing part of a round with no security I can't say I can support their removal. Find a way to integrate them rather than remove them entirely. Gangs just running around murderboning through the halls isn't good, security prevents them from doing this. You can't tell me that vigilantes, with their weakass weapons will be able to stop the gangs at all or even slow 'em down.

[Oldman Robustin]

When I get the next PR bug-fixed and we get enough testing in we'll have a poll about whether people liked the no-sec experiment.

Just had our first test of the NO-SEC mode and I think it went pretty well despite the lack of reinforcements and the DONK territory being horribly bugged (I didn't touch territory code so I have no fucking clue).

Vigilantes ARE a threat though. I was a 1st LT for Gene Gang a vigilante assblasted me with 2 spear embeds. I saw plenty of vigilantes who had earned up to an autorifle and considering that vigilantes won the round despite Donk gang getting 1000's of points, I think vigilantes are working alright.

I'm considering altering the leadership mechanics though. It seems really punishing to be in a gang when your leaders have died and lost their tools.

[RandolfTheMeh]

You can't tell me that vigilantes, with their weakass weapons will be able to stop the gangs at all or even slow 'em down.

Echoing some of Robustin's comments from our test run, vigilantes did indeed manage to stop the gangs from taking over. Keep in mind, though, that it's not just the vigilantes that "stop" or "slow down" gangs, but other gangs as well. The vigilantes are more of a wild card that exists for the sake of getting everyone involved in the round.

As for security's removal, I prefer it honestly. If sec wasn't removed, there would be no need for vigilantes, and so either gangs would be fucked over by the number of forces against them, or we'd just get rid of vigilantes and have gang go back to what it used to be. I can imagine a few ways sec could be incorporated, but those mostly involve making part of sec antag, which has so far been frowned upon by the general community. Bombing sec for "budget reasons" seems a bit sketchy, but we're not playing for the lore.

[Oldman Robustin]

The bombs ambiguous, I just took Cyberboss's intro code. It will probably have to be refined before the final version because the bomb does feel like a filler solution.

[ShadowDimentio]

Make a self-promotion thing purchasable (but expensive) so if there are less than max gang bosses you can take the reins yourself if you want.

[onleavedontatme]

Budget is dumb, should be a syndicate attack or something.

Or the entire thing is some twisted bloodsport run by aliens who give people guns to watch them fight

[Steelpoint]

Armada of Syndicate NPCs invading the station in waves when? They decided to spend all the money they would've spent on five Nuke Operatives on a thousand conscripts and clone soldiers.

[Oldman Robustin]

Budget is dumb, should be a syndicate attack or something.

Or the entire thing is some twisted bloodsport run by aliens who give people guns to watch them fight

I mean it's significantly less dumb if I go with my original plan of just deleting all sec equipment and Gangs exploit a defenseless station.

Anyway this territory meme is killing me, I've literally put a debug message before every addition to the territory list and yet a gang is bugging out and getting new territory without any debug message.

It doesn't even happen during every test. I've tried to see if it was a particular gang or a particular territory, but nothing seems to explain it!

[ShadowDimentio]

A quick and easy patchwork fix would be to snowflake code that gangs skip from 1 to 3.

[bandit]

This is my main doubt about it. You're basically turning it into a giant team death match, there's no way around that. At least previously there was a bare minimum of roleplay now it feels like it's taking the whole space station part of it away, like it's just a map for the TDM instead of a place for people to do their jobs while antagonists are fighting them.

This, exactly.