[POLL]Space Law Vote: Subordination Laws

[Ikarrus]

UPDATE: By overwhelming majority vote these are now Laws under Space Law
http://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law
Feel free to continue discussion/suggest edits.

Keeping with tradition that Space Law changes are approved by community vote, I'd like to propose adding the following crimes with the intention of legitimizing security enforcement of the chain of command.

Insubordination
Category: Medium Crime (2 min)

Description:
To disobey a lawful direct order from one's superior officer.

Notes:
Charge issued by a head of staff to one of their direct subordinates. The person is usually demoted instead of incarcerated. Security is expected to assist the head in carrying out the demotion.

Dereliction of Duty
Category: Major Crime (5 min)

Description:
To willfully abandon an obligation that is critical to the station's continued operation.

Notes:
A demotion is often included in the sentence. Emphasis on the word critical: An officer taking a break is not dereliction in of itself. An officer taking a break knowing that operatives are shooting up the Captain is. Engineers who do not secure a power source at the start of the shift and heads of staff who abandon the station can also be charged.

[Ikarrus]

If you guys want to make other changes to Space Law, please open up another thread for it. We can't add to polls without resetting it, and we should try to stay on-topic.

[Fragnostic]

anyone who willfully allows an entity to endanger the station through inaction.

B-b-but not just anyone is sec. It's not their job, much less their duty, to stop those who endanger the station. We already have a ton of problems with non sec playing greycurity or antaghunters. I've seen people get brigged for at least 10 minutes and the rebrigged by these nonofficial 'officers'. Ahelping this will just be dismissed as 'lel IC ish-shoe knot mai problum xDD' and this clause will only encourage people to be vigilantes because they'll get brigged for not doing so. I don't think that'll be fun for anyone.

[Ikarrus]

The intention is to legitimize the arrest of people who stay silent when they see someone committing a serious crime like sabotage or murdering the captain. Warning others should not count as willfully ignoring something. It can be clarified or the line could be removed entirely if that works better.

[Incomptinence]

I think people should get a warning first. I forgot to sound off over the sec radio the other day (colours had stuffed up in chat and I did not know) and they pretty much said they were going to demote me and why so then I did what they wanted and they didn't, totally reasonable exchange even if they were a bit miffed.

[Reimoo]

Punishing insubordination is A-Okay. Heads need to be able to exercise their authority more.

But dereliction is kind of iffy. Considering a lot of jobs involve only doing one important task and then fucking off to wherever, it's kind of hard to define dereliction of duty when you aren't really expected to do anything past help setting up the department you belong to. Shitler heads may even go as far as charging dereliction on the tiniest excuses, like a subordinate is relaxing in the bar or something. The only jobs I can think of where this charge would actually hold some weight is in engineering, or ironically, head positions.

[Ikarrus]

Emphasis on the word critical. The law should only apply when, through the person's willful inaction, the station's continued operation is endangered. An officer taking a break is not dereliction in of itself. An officer taking a break while operatives are shooting up the Captain is.

Yes, it is primarily targeted to engineers and heads. But it was a few other applications as well. I've rewritten the notes for Dereliction for clarity.

[mrpain]

We're all tired of engineers who fuck off at the start of the round and dont set up the engine, leaving the station literally in the dark. I'm all for dereliction of duty going in. This should have been done a long time ago.

[Steelpoint]

These kind of charges are often persecuted by Sec at times. Actually having a law to define tibia fantastic!

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Hopefully it will not be abused. Like if I know R&D better than RD does, he still insists on his super good way that he read in some shitty guide and I end up in jail for it.

So I hope that admins will look into cases like this. Otherwise it's very much needed.

[Miauw]

Shouldn't this be in the policy discussion subforum?

[Saegrimr]

Jesus christ yes. Anytime i'm in atmos and I see the other tech(s) grab the axe/hardsuit and haul ass out of the room, I instantly PDA the HoS or any active security members to set him to arrest and detain.

At least pretend like you have a job, dammit.

[Kuraudo]

I'm ok with this but nobody will enforce those changes if we don't do something to make security more attractive to play.

[cedarbridge]

Hopefully it will not be abused. Like if I know R&D better than RD does, he still insists on his super good way that he read in some shitty guide and I end up in jail for it.

So I hope that admins will look into cases like this. Otherwise it's very much needed.

Odds are good you'll only end up brigged for it if you choose to make it get to that point. For example, if you choose to cause a scene and exercise control or authority over the RnD office that you don't have (because its vested in the RD and not you) then yes, you get briged/demoted. This is already the case as the Head of Staff is the supreme authority short of the captain within their domain. If you are displeased with that, you're free to seek other employment. I've had subordinates go so far as to wall off RnD just to keep the Rd out because THEY think they have the best way to do the job. Egos aside, the chain of command doesn't care how good you think your method is or what you think you know better than somebody else. That's the whole point.

[Ricotez]

tbh I consider an incompetent Head to be guilty of dereliction

[cedarbridge]

tbh I consider an incompetent Head to be guilty of dereliction

In their own autistic way, a lot of players consider others to be "incompetent" to a degree. Usually when they disagree about something. If we're even taking competence into account or anything to that degree, It would have to be something to the point of gross negligence to the point of station or departmental endangerment. "I don't like the R&D route the RD uses" is hardly dereliction.

[Septavius]

now can we order assistants to battle to the death and if they refuse we can arrest them?

[Ikarrus]

Unfortunately, no, because that would not be a lawful order.

[Pandarsenic]

But it'd be an awesome order.

[bandit]

implying assistants will turn down any opportunity to battle people

[Lovecraft]

I forget where I read this, but can we get some more weight behind the idea of increasing all crime sentences to the point where being brigged matters?

[MedicInDisquise]

I'm ok with this but nobody will enforce those changes if we don't do something to make security more attractive to play.

Security is usually filled or has 5 people in it, and they still do surprisingly well weeding out the shitlers and antags of the 40-60+ other group of people. I don't think we need a security change as of now.


As for the space law changes, go at it.

[Ricotez]

tbh I consider an incompetent Head to be guilty of dereliction

In their own autistic way, a lot of players consider others to be "incompetent" to a degree. Usually when they disagree about something. If we're even taking competence into account or anything to that degree, It would have to be something to the point of gross negligence to the point of station or departmental endangerment. "I don't like the R&D route the RD uses" is hardly dereliction.

I'm talking about genuine incompetence, the kind you see when someone who has never played a job in a department suddenly picks Head for that department.

[cedarbridge]

I'm ok with this but nobody will enforce those changes if we don't do something to make security more attractive to play.

Security is usually filled or has 5 people in it, and they still do surprisingly well weeding out the shitlers and antags of the 40-60+ other group of people. I don't think we need a security change as of now.


As for the space law changes, go at it.

If security was "usually filled" we wouldn't have several threads discussing solutions for "nosec" and have rounds where admins are literally bribing players to turn on security. (Janicarts reskinned to EDs was still the best thing)

[Ikarrus]

By overwhelming majority vote the Subordination Laws are now a part of Space Law.

http://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law

[Malkevin]

Mah Space Law is complete