2k17 /pol/

[ShadowDimentio]

Bottom post of the previous page:

The Trumpcare bill got canceled by Trump and Paul Ryan. Predictably, the media is painting this as a huge failure on Trump's end, when it really seemed to be the GOP trying to step back and do their Obama repeal right.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Nah, trump's going to let it wheeze and die as a democratic party failure, it has nothing to do with him and he's sure as hell not going to step in to sweep up the rival political party's turd on the carpet. He's a republican with a mostly republican senate, like really why should they care. Because "FREE STUFF" and socialism folks are argue about it isn't going to make them any more unpopular with that crowd and most Americans in support of him will be forgiving and hopeful (though everybody likes free stuff right? Its a pretty much guranteed way to win votes when you promise free stuff)

- Calling it, bernie "three houses" is going to call out that its the people's moral right to free healthcare despite being a largely flawed system as you can see (admirable, but very very flawed) in the UK with the NHS having issue after issue.

People have been saying that Trumpcare (actually its Ryancare and people on T_D are celebrating the bills failture after they realised it was a scam) is actually just obamacare with a few tacked on changes so it makes the most sense to keep the failing system and euthanise it to make space for a non-obama care replacement in the future.

[Screemonster]

The NHS only has issues when the tories fuck it up and if you hadn't noticed, the tories have been in for quite a while now.

America's attempt at a state level health system is fucked up because it legalised forcing people to hook up to the private healthcare.

Don't talk bollocks about nationalised healthcare. It's only as bad as the people up top and unfortunately we've had no-one good up top of late. Just like police, busses and trains.

I'd take the NHS over the shitshow that is the US any day.
The NHS has plenty of flaws because the civil service is a pretty terrible model for just about anything, but holy shit.

Aussie healthcare model is good. French even better.
French model is privately run hospitals with less of the awful empirebuilding shite you get with the civil service model, BUT also heavily regulated as the french like to do, to stop bullshit american-style "charge thousands of dollars for a fucking xray" nonsense.
Insurance, rather than mandating people buy insurance (what the fuck, obama?) is handled basically like...

1. go to hospital.
2. get bill.
3. take bill to mayor's office in town.
4. mayor's office looks at your income, looks at the bill, then pays a portion of the costs depending on your ability to pay (so low-income workers don't get bankrupted by an ambulance ride, but rich fuckers pay for their shit)
5. if you have insurance, your insurance covers what's left.

Oh, and french corporate manslaughter laws are fucking legendarily draconian and go straight for the board of directors, so something like the mid staffs scandal we had in the UK would have lead to the people in charge of that shitshow receiving jail time. Like, seriously, if you're a company owner in france and you decide to cut corners and someone dies as a result, you might as well just bend over on the spot.

[FantasticFwoosh]

I mean, labour had a hand in screwing it up too, basically allowing half of europe to work in our hospitals (doing a good job mind) but creating a crisis in which when the tides change we have a national shortage of homegrown doctors. Just letting Obamacare die as a political decision however might be painful it may be won't be a failure on Trumps part because Obama and the entire democratic party (which not one wanted to vote the new Ryancare/Trumpcare bill) responsible for it will crash and burn with it.

Though they are trialing trying to bill people who are being treated who flown in from foreign countries, though most of the time they tend to run away before they properly get charged their amount (no wonder its completely snowed under, we already have the issue of aging population ontop of freeloaders from the EU and further afield)

[Luke Cox]

Obamacare is a half-assed cop-out. Universal healthcare or GTFO.

[Malkevin]

I mean, labour had a hand in screwing it up too, basically allowing half of europe to work in our hospitals (doing a good job mind) but creating a crisis in which when the tides change we have a national shortage of homegrown doctors. Just letting Obamacare die as a political decision however might be painful it may be won't be a failure on Trumps part because Obama and the entire democratic party (which not one wanted to vote the new Ryancare/Trumpcare bill) responsible for it will crash and burn with it.

Though they are trialing trying to bill people who are being treated who flown in from foreign countries, though most of the time they tend to run away before they properly get charged their amount (no wonder its completely snowed under, we already have the issue of aging population ontop of freeloaders from the EU and further afield)

I honestly don't blame british doctors fucking off to canada after qualifying.

A junior doctor starts working atleast 40 grand in debt, anyone in that position is going to do whats best to get out of that position.

[XSI]

Didn't the NHS also have the whole problem with being privatized, and this fucking with pretty much every kind of staff comfort/benefit to make them work harder for the same pay?

I'd get out too if other places had both better pay AND better conditions.

[Screemonster]

Privatising a thing that was originally public tends to end up with the worst of both models. Especially if it's something that lends itself well to monopolies.

[Luke Cox]

See, this is the kind of stuff that the left needs to be hammering. But no, pronouns and bathrooms are more important apparently.

[Screemonster]

The NHS is one of the biggest individual employers in the UK (if not THE biggest) and the vast majority of it are clerical staff, and any time it gets a cut it seems to come straight out of the nurses on the front line without any of the layers of management being affected.

It was parodied in an episode of Yes, Minister where he goes to visit "the best-run hospital in the country" only to find that all the wards are empty, there aren't any medical staff whatsoever, and the entire thing is just a typing pool making sure all the paperwork is in order. Of course when he threatens to close them down if they don't get some patients in, the union conducts a strike at every hospital in the country.

[XSI]

Trains

Fuck that
We had our rail system 'privatized' here, which is in quotes because it's still a monopoly and they are still exactly the same company with the exact same schedules and exact same amount of trains running the same times and same amount of trips

The difference?
Higher prices and firing half the staff so the trains aren't maintained as well or cleaned as often
The profit goes to some asshole up top instead of to the government

Who did it?
Dutch version of "Labour" did it
To compensate for the loss of income from the trains being sold off, they raised taxes
And as can be reasonably expected of such idiots, they lost the latest election so hard they essentially stopped existing

[oranges]

the internet of things isn't going to get better without some regulatory action to make companies responsible for the breaches even if they occur on the customer premises. Currently the moment it leaves the store keeping it up to date and secure becomes your problem and 99% of people simply do not have the requisite skillset to do so.

Regulatory action won't come without some kind of major privacy breach or outrage, so we're not there yet, although law always usually lags behind by about 5-10 years.

[Luke Cox]

The government knows that it's susceptible as fuck to breaches. They love it, why would they regulate it?

[InsaneHyena]

Can I buy you a pziza, Crag?

[Luke Cox]

The NHS should mail Crag a pizza.

[oranges]

The government knows that it's susceptible as fuck to breaches. They love it, why would they regulate it?

Because contrary to popular belief the government is not made up of just intelligence agents.

[Luke Cox]

The government knows that it's susceptible as fuck to breaches. They love it, why would they regulate it?

Because contrary to popular belief the government is not made up of just intelligence agents.

True, but based on their actions they're sure as fuck in bed with each other. Why is the intelligence community so bent on pinning the political establishment's shortcomings on Russia? If their interests aren't aligned, why don't politicians lynch the NSA or CIA for PR points?

[FantasticFwoosh]

The government knows that it's susceptible as fuck to breaches. They love it, why would they regulate it?

Because contrary to popular belief the government is not made up of just intelligence agents.

Unless you're secretly a police authoritarian state that exists to coup and undermine the main political party and influence elections and get anybody you don't like killed via a Manchurian Candidate of MKultra'ing them and directing the focus of their induced/present mental health issues.

[youtube]VrdS8mYtEh4[/youtube]

[oranges]

[youtube]35K7WP1hXKw[/youtube]

shia got divided again

[Grazyn]

Looks like Scotland is gonna secede, likely followed by Wales, and Ulster is gonna join Ireland too. If this really happens, the UK would've lost not only the Empire but even territorial integrity of the home island in the span of less than a century, all without losing a single major war.

Back to Civilized Nation status, I guess.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Its only main 1 political party the SNP that is pushing the agenda of scottish independence and i have a nasty gut feeling its going to end up escalating into violence or military action. Just because they want to secede, doesn't mean that we should allow them to (in political & practical military terms) and I very much reckon it will be defeated in the commons (since if it goes through without complaint its hypocrisy on the opposition to brexit, or perhaps subject to fear of a backlash.)

- Basically the Queen who gets the final say is going to tell Scotland to stay whether they like it or not i feel.

Basically the SNP is the sinn fein of the North, currently without the the violent predicament.

[Super Aggro Crag]

I hope Britain balkanizes so we can have top quality vids of drunken militants fighting each other with flaming soccer balls and knives with blades less than 3 inches in length. God bless CCTV.

[Grazyn]

Its only main 1 political party the SNP that is pushing the agenda of scottish independence and i have a nasty gut feeling its going to end up escalating into violence or military action. Just because they want to secede, doesn't mean that we should allow them to (in political & practical military terms) and I very much reckon it will be defeated in the commons (since if it goes through without complaint its hypocrisy on the opposition to brexit, or perhaps subject to fear of a backlash.)

- Basically the Queen who gets the final say is going to tell Scotland to stay whether they like it or not i feel.

Basically the SNP is the sinn fein of the North, currently without the the violent predicament.

Would the Queen (or King) really go for the military option with the risk of plunging the country into civil war? Other nations could take advantage of the turmoil to bite more chunks off the dying carcass, like Spain seizing Gibraltar (either militarily or after a local referendum), Commonwealth countries definitely cutting ties with the UK and so on

[XSI]

I'm pretty sure a Scottish independence would just mean they're let out and told they're free to do commonwealth stuff

No real point to war, what is there really in Scotland aside from bagpipes and haggis anyway?
Queen/king would still be the queen/king of Scotland if my CK2 title knowledge is correct, unless they decide to crown someone else for whatever reason

[FantasticFwoosh]

Well for the sake of protecting Scotland from Russia too that is already prowling around Sweden/Poland yes, its a unsavory scenario. Gilbritar (and the EU supporting spain in general) is also another point of contention, especially post EU army or EU mobilisation into a central state.

The way i see it in the face of palingenetic ultranationalism and populism etc leaning to the right, we're going to end in a possible WW3 scenario as the 'fascists' (right leaning brexit england/Maga America the french, dutch, hungary, hopefully italy) with Russia just doing its own thing in a mutual truce looking to chew more land, sort of like the outlying original political setup of WW2 but inverse to political parties who are playing on each side, since we have no intent of conquering russia but might want to contest over something Russia just recently conquered.

Its all very interesting when we look at it on the other shoe, the Spartacus party in Germany got off on nearly exactly the same footing as most of our right leaning prospective leaders have today, inspired by Mussolini's Italian model and "The March on Rome" in which Hitler themself tried to copy (the real instigators of the rise of fascism in europe) but instead took it to the very furthest extremes of that rhetoric.

If you look at Pinochet, he created the 'Miracle of Chile' at the expense of human lives due to his military coup to make it the best economic running country in Latin America by doing what was nessecary. In the Phillipines, the quite literal 'War on Drugs' happening via president Deurte is actually cleaning up the streets also at the traumatic expense of human life as drug dealers are being taken down.

All of these things are objectionable and horrible, but is the global shift happening?

[youtube]8JOpPNra4bw[/youtube]

[Grazyn]

The 2 major Italian "Anti-EU" parties aren't really that "Anti-EU", the largest one (M5S) tried to leave Nigel's UKIP alliance to join Verhofstadt's pro-EU, leftist party ALDE (but ultimately failed because ALDE told them to fuck off), and the other one (LN) is eurosceptic but pushing for reforms to strenghten the EU without destroying it (they are funded by Russia just like FN in France though). Neither are calling for "Italexit" or anything like that.

However it's true that current events are playing out just like they would in a grand strategy game when you select the "Road to War" starting bookmark.

[ShadowDimentio]

To my understanding, Scottish independence is mostly a meme perpetuated by a really small group of people who REALLY want it while the majority don't give a shit.

In other news I enjoy taking a glance at Trump's twitter and seeing how the same like five verified accounts that you just KNOW are journalists are replying entire papers about how he's literally Hitler. Sad!

[Screemonster]

[youtube]35K7WP1hXKw[/youtube]

shia got divided again

all these Watch_Dogs references and nobody's making any jokes about Tom Clancy's The Division

[Luke Cox]

Scotland is not going to succede from the UK. Anyone who thinks the referendum has a snowball's chance in hell of passing has watched too much Braveheart. Scotland is not going to chop off its legs to spite the UK

[DemonFiren]

And yet the UK is chopping off its legs to spite the EU.

[Grazyn]

Yeah "x is never gonna chop off its legs" doesn't mean anything since democracy is a thing

[DemonFiren]

It doesn't mean anything since human idiocy is a thing, and it exists in all of us.

[Screemonster]

None of us are as dumb as all of us.

[DemonFiren]

I guess that's true, too, but autocracies aren't any better, usually.

[K-64]

Scotland is not going to succede from the UK. Anyone who thinks the referendum has a snowball's chance in hell of passing has watched too much Braveheart. Scotland is not going to chop off its legs to spite the UK

Well, the staying in the EU thing was one of the main parts of the independence referendum. Having the prospect of the EU membership be more likely on the other side of the discussion will mean a lot of votes will shift over to leaving the UK. And need I remind you that the result of the referendum was pretty damn close.

[Drynwyn]

It doesn't mean anything since human idiocy is a thing, and it exists in all of us.

[cedarbridge]

And yet the UK is chopping off its legs to spite the EU.

That's how you treat gangrene of that caliber.

[ShadowDimentio]

And yet the UK is chopping off its legs to spite the EU.

That's how you treat gangrene of that caliber.

Lets not kid ourselves by pretending the EU is going to do anything but crash and burn.

[cedarbridge]

And yet the UK is chopping off its legs to spite the EU.

That's how you treat gangrene of that caliber.

Lets not kid ourselves by pretending the EU is going to do anything but crash and burn.

Its already in the cascade. They're doing themselves no favors by taking the strongarm "no deals for traitors" line that they're now trying to walk back. Same as the "even if you leave EU law still applies to you, silly vassals" thing.

[FantasticFwoosh]

We're going to steal all thier laws and cut out the bits with their name on in order to keep life the same generally in what's called the "Repeal bill" (though its a bit doublespeaky for the "Integration bill") allowing us to keep the bits that we like.

Current political problem here in the UK is right now we have a government mandated to do brexit and not much else, and the oppositional parties (lib dem pissbirds/laughable labour/never in a million years greens/scottish nutter party) are so tiny and divided between themselves if the current government fell there's nobody to fill the hole or make the current government accountable for their actions if controversial changes are made to any of the detailed clauses.

Oh and UKIP official faded out of existance with the only MP stepping down (but still not as humiliating as being lib dem endangered species of MP)

Seriously fuck the lib dems taking the chance to screw up brexit in order to win votes, Labour is split between jumping on negative criticism to boost themselves and a commitment to go through and boost themselves on the back of wanting to protect workers with this repeal bill looming in the 2020 general election (which is a more positive use of their energy)

---

For anybody who has thought about making their own party, i think it would be a good time to do so in the UK in order to fill the void made by the age old Labour | Conservative endless battle that has seem to be eclipsed now, personally i have a plan how id do it if i was out on campaign. But it involves pushing elected mayors (of entire regions, handpicked from candidates willing to run) into the house of lords in which to lobby local interests and put forward selected bills into to parliment in a shake up of parlimentary discussion.

Basically mayor responsible for the entirety of region X has the power to lobby to do things in the house of lords, or write up a bill themselves in which to address to parliment for changes local only to their area or nationally (nationally obviously more scrutinised) but since they aren't typical parlimentary MP's though they stand in the house of lords as individuals, MP's wield more power over them. A Mayor of Scotland (or shared anyhow which way it is divided) can after lobbying with groups discuss matters within Scotland without the need of dissident extreme political parties like the SNP, if there is a growing feeling the english based parlimentary system doesn't have their interests.

Its also a good way to de-weed the house of lords for the future, as many of them are getting notably old.

[ShadowDimentio]

[youtube]4n4FdsZy47M[/youtube]

High energy memery

[FantasticFwoosh]

Gibitrar's basically been threatened in the fact that the article 50 small print* (clarity needed) the decision will technically fall onto Spain's decisions and its either leave Gibraltar or eat whatever deal the EU offers for briexit which could be unfavorable for us if we want to keep Gibraltar.. That's grim.

Its not so much handing over Gibraltar but significantly affecting the status of governmental decisions there.

[XSI]

>Implying anything will happen to Gibraltar

Didn't those spanish-speaking folk learn from the Falklands?
Same shit, different location. Try to mess with the commonwealth and NATO? Because if Britain ever starts losing they can and will call on NATO, that's what it's there for.
Gibraltar is going to remain British, as long as the people who live there want it to be

If they want to change then I suppose there are procedures for that as well

[ShadowDimentio]

I sincerely doubt anything will come from it, if push comes to shove Britain can just tell the EU to go fuck itself, they're leaving and they're keeping the kids Gibraltar too. Worst case scenario the Brits call Trump and NATO intervenes to tell the EU to fuck off as well.

[DemonFiren]

>trump helping anyone but u.s.

[InsaneHyena]

>Demonfiren already surpassed the "Trump won't help US" phase of denial
He thought we wouldn't notice. But we did.

[ShadowDimentio]

>Trump totally in support of Brexit the whole time
>Hates the EU and wants it to collapse
>Brexit is being hampered by the EU trying to rules lawyer a bad deal
>There being any reason for Trump to not intervene on Britain's side

Trump would have every reason to side with Britain, you have to be stupid to think that he wouldn't jump on that chance.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Russia is also on relatively good terms so far too, and if there was something mutually in it for them im sure they'd definitely help out.

[DemonFiren]

>Demonfiren already surpassed the "Trump won't help US" phase of denial
He thought we wouldn't notice. But we did.

Hey, I believe he believes he's helping.

[Malkevin]

Russia is also on relatively good terms so far too, and if there was something mutually in it for them im sure they'd definitely help out.

We buy a lot of gas from russia.

[oranges]

>Implying anything will happen to Gibraltar

Didn't those spanish-speaking folk learn from the Falklands?
Same shit, different location. Try to mess with the commonwealth and NATO? Because if Britain ever starts losing they can and will call on NATO, that's what it's there for.
Gibraltar is going to remain British, as long as the people who live there want it to be

If they want to change then I suppose there are procedures for that as well

lol