Tragedy of the commons, tg's lack of depth

Post by **oranges** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:55 am #265803

Lets face it, our codebase is vastly wide and very shallow.

There's a lot of features, but they don't go very deep or interesting, when people come to make a change they don't want to edit something existing they just make a new thing instead.

We need some rules or constraints that force people to edit existing things and give them more depth , rather than just adding new items or gamemodes.

There's no real long term replayability if you are only wide, people will eventually exhaust all the options and grow bored until the width is extended again. All the while the core game mechanics are rotting.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:59 am #265805

Why not pull a CM and give the server a direction

ShadowDimentio · Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:02 am

Width of an ocean, depth of a puddle. That's TG.

I agree with you, Oranges, but I don't think there's an answer anywhere to be found that will make people happy. Kor tried the whole "design lead" thing but nothing ever really came of it except him getting to dead stop PRs he didn't like.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:09 am #265809

Our server is very shallow but one of the main problems comes from our playerbase. Many people do not like to spend a ton of time doing one thing and with how short rounds are we might not be able to make effective deep systems without the shuttle being called and destroying it. I would like to reduce the feature bloat (like all the traitor items that are not bought) and work on existing stuff but add new stuff that's deep too so we can have the best of both worlds. If we have a narrow, deep pond, it is still a pond. If we have a wide, shallow lake, it is a lake. Wide and deep is an ocean and that is what I and lots of people want.

Post by **oranges** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:09 am #265810

D&B wrote:Why not pull a CM and give the server a direction

Because we tried that and People like shadow show up and turn the whole thing into a shitshow, then MSO comes along and whinges about state rights and threatens to fork the codebase anytime something he doesn't like gets pred or something he likes gets shot down.

CM works because the host backs the design lead fully, we lost that the moment SOS quit and it's just been a slow slide into garbage since then.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:14 am

Nobody ever wants to compromise, least of all our wonderful maintainers whose word is law and to defy them is death.

But you're a fool if you think TG is garbage, it's perfectly fine currently.

Post by **oranges** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:17 am #265813

Do you really think in it's current state it's actually a good game Shadow?

Most of the jobs are a thin veneer, the only systems with any real depth are chemistry and atmospherics and atmospherics doesnt' even tie much into the game beyond providing breathable air and fueling the supermatter?

if we took away the antags and the fighting what would even be left?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:17 am #265815

We should just spawn everyone in the thunderdome with energy axes. Then the game would have a clear goal and direction.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:19 am

Nothing because that's what SS13 is and always has been. Tell, me, how would this have been any different in the golden age of TG as described by you? Whgen SOS was around, was extended any less insufferable? Were most jobs any less terribly boring?

No. They weren't.

Post by **oranges** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:22 am #265820

yeah, but at least the direction was consistent, look at what has happened since then, furry races, fantasy monsters, lavaland etc.

We don't seem to know where the hell we are going anymore

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:24 am #265822

Too much fantasy, yeah.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:27 am #265824

I tried to remake a lot of lavaland as retrofuturistic one time but among others kor (maker of lavaland) shot me down, so that is a no go. I just thank god that we only have lizards and not other snowflake races.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:27 am

The game's quality isn't fracturing apart because you can spawn with cat ears, Oranges.

I couldn't care less what gets added next or what its sprite or theme is, so long as it's /fun/. Because isn't that what we're all here for? To have /fun/?

I'm as much of a fan of thematic consistency as the next person, but bitching about how wizards are RUINING THE THEME OF THEIR 2D SCI FI ATMOS SIM is a huge waste of time when there are such huge depth issues plaguing the game and how we frankly haven't seen a big content addition in months.

Post by **oranges** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:31 am #265831

But it's a symptom of the issues, nobody can touch existing stuff in any meaninful way without causing a giant shitstorm

nobody wants to let a single person define the direction of the game without causing a giant shitstorm

any attempt to focus efforts along any sort of line causes a giant shitstorm

a system based on giant shitstorms is even worse than NT station

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:31 am #265832

you shush ntstation was great

ShadowDimentio · Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:37 am

The root problem here I think is because the coders and players have such a disgustingly huge disconnect and hate each other. The "coders don't play" meme isn't one that just happened over night, and the resentment held by both sides is very old indeed.

If coders want to start improving the game in meaningful ways, I'd suggest extending the olive branch and listening to what the players want, and in turn the public opinion will shift.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:39 am #265836

ShadowDimentio wrote:The root problem here I think is because the coders and players have such a disgustingly huge disconnect and hate each other. The "coders don't play" meme isn't one that just happened over night, and the resentment held by both sides is very old indeed.

If coders want to start improving the game in meaningful ways, I'd suggest extending the olive branch and listening to what the players want, and in turn the public opinion will shift.

This, why do we even have maintainers and design leads when neither are giving direction for the game anyway, just merging what they like and throwing out what they don't.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:44 am #265838

Xhuis wrote:you shush ntstation was great

all it really accomplished was a reformed goofball and the deep fryer

captain sawrge · Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:50 am

Oranges is right also please stop responding to ShadowDimentio as he knows literally nothing about game design

Post by **oranges** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:51 am #265845

it honestly feels like at this point the design direction is literally just "pr's that aren't controversial"

that's not a blueprint for anything good

Haevacht · Post by **Haevacht** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:52 am #265846

oranges wrote:it honestly feels like at this point the design direction is literally just "pr's that aren't controversial"

that's not a blueprint for anything good

And also not an achievable blueprint while people like dimentio and aesthetics draw breath.

Post by **oranges** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:54 am #265848

Armhulen wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:The root problem here I think is because the coders and players have such a disgustingly huge disconnect and hate each other. The "coders don't play" meme isn't one that just happened over night, and the resentment held by both sides is very old indeed.

If coders want to start improving the game in meaningful ways, I'd suggest extending the olive branch and listening to what the players want, and in turn the public opinion will shift.
This, why do we even have maintainers and design leads when neither are giving direction for the game anyway, just merging what they like and throwing out what they don't.

wtf are you serious?

Every time they do you show up and call them a niggerfaggot, no wonder they dont' want to discuss with you

captain sawrge · Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:57 am

I think the work being done on/with the supermatter engine is a promising direction and I hope more people will follow that. Ideally people can keep expanding on it rather than doing silly things like 200 line commits to watch a number go up until you get adminspawn only gear.

It would be nice to see stricter quality control enforced on feature PRs and a greater emphasis on more thought-out and planned features over adding novelties to the game to entertain people for five minutes before they get bored.

Maybe slightly unrelated, but it would also be nice if things could start to move away from massive disasters and tools of mass destruction that end the round and more on things people can conceivably deal with, like traitor items focusing more on sabotage than on murdering and large scale destruction, expansion/tweaks to construction to make repairs more viable, station/crew objectives and incentives for completing them.

onleavedontatme · Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:03 am

If you think "throwing out PRs he doesn't like" its an overreach and unfair you don't actually want a "design lead" (and I don't think anyone really does honestly).

If anything I probably humour people who disagree with me a lot more than I should, its way too time consuming and draining to compromise only for people to bitch about tyranny anyway.

I don't think it can really be a one person job either. It's not feasible for me to keep up with approving or denying (complete with a 5 hour argument, and protest PRs, and forum riot every time) for 80+ PRs a week. All the maintainers would need to agree on a direction and push in it together.

On top of all that you also need an incredible amount of time and effort to code things that lead towards the design, and you need the time and will to do that while under a constant barrage of people opening bikeshedding PRs about armour and adding memes 10 times a day.

Lavaland was supposed to be a proof of concept that PVE and respawn roles and exploration and such could all be fun and players could be happy and engaged without buying into the grief lotto, and I think it proved that it was, but obviously I never got around to trying to implement those things in the game at large because I can only handle so much SS13 in my life and just finishing that burned me out pretty bad.

Finally: All the headmins and host would need to agree on a direction as well. Doesn't matter what game you design if the admins override it or push it in another direction. CM doesn't have a change over leadership every 3-4 months. CM also has way simpler design goals and I assume a process in which people are told they are going to be coding X thing, rather than being told they're not allowed to code Y.

The closet we have to "you must code X thing" is the feature freeze and that also ends in a fucking riot every time.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:06 am

oranges wrote:Every time they do you show up and call them a niggerfaggot, no wonder they dont' want to discuss with you

Ah yes the "they're doing it for your own good" argument again. Sorry oranges, I don't need you to tell me what I think about a PR, I can conclude it for myself thanks.

I appreciate the three whole replies we had before you started throwing out barbs though. Scratch that it wasn't you I'm actually retarded

Haevacht · Post by **Haevacht** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:10 am #265857

I bring learning materials:
http://pbskids.org/arthur/games/factsop ... nions.html

Post by **oranges** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:10 am #265858

ShadowDimentio wrote:
oranges wrote:Every time they do you show up and call them a niggerfaggot, no wonder they dont' want to discuss with you
Ah yes the "they're doing it for your own good" argument again. Sorry oranges, I don't need you to tell me what I think about a PR, I can conclude it for myself thanks.

I appreciate the three whole replies we had before you started throwing out barbs though.

What part of my comment that points out that any time Kor has made a decision on something players showed up to ree about it and insult them is the "they're doing it for your own good argument" you dumb fucking drooler? (now there is a barb for you)

edit: cancelled my insult since you did walk back on that

captain sawrge · Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:11 am

ShadowDimentio wrote:
oranges wrote:Every time they do you show up and call them a niggerfaggot, no wonder they dont' want to discuss with you
Ah yes the "they're doing it for your own good" argument again. Sorry oranges, I don't need you to tell me what I think about a PR, I can conclude it for myself thanks.

When people start to contribute as much as maintainers do and also earn enough trust to be held with a similar regard, they can challenge the maintainers' authority all they please. Until then, they're more impotent whiners that need to get over themselves.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:13 am #265860

I am kind of sad how quickly this thread derailed to personal attacks. I'll try to get it back on track by asking you all this:
What in your opinion can give our game more depth and how could we go about it? Many of our mechanics may be shallow, but as someone with no experience in game design, I really cannot recognize them.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:18 am #265863

you can't really do anything until you actually improve the subsystems of the game yourself. most coders have no real interest in fleshing out long-ignored systems. they just add the SS13 equivalent of TF2 hats. nice-looking, easy to code things that change almost nothing below the surface.

the basic, building-block elements of the game need attention. atmos, engineering, and the maintenance of the station hull barely figure in the round at all. basic survival problems should IMO take up a decent part of the round and as it is they barely factor at all.

i honestly don't know what should be done about antagonists, but if you want to add depth engineering is the way to go. it's easy enough to see the way forward and improvements can be made without sparking a shitstorm in maintainerland probably.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:20 am #265865

Therein lies the issue. Speaking as a coder who has made many shiny TF2 hats it's because I do not know what is wrong with the systems we have. I code the things I think are cool and I do not know how to improve other things. I don't have time to play every job constantly so I rely on players to help me.

captain sawrge · Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:21 am

Xhuis wrote:I am kind of sad how quickly this thread derailed to personal attacks. I'll try to get it back on track by asking you all this:
What in your opinion can give our game more depth and how could we go about it? Many of our mechanics may be shallow, but as someone with no experience in game design, I really cannot recognize them.

Many jobs don't have a well defined goal, most jobs' gameplay is very shallow i.e. R&D is just a research flowchart, atmos techs' only real job is to fix gas leaks that generally get the shuttle called anyway, medbay consists of pushing the dispense chemicals button on the sleeper.
The station has zero value to the crew and thus no one really cares if things are sabotaged or destroyed or whatever because the shuttle is a 10 minute reset button. There's no overarching goal for the crew and no real reason for survival except you get to wait longer before you're killed by an antag.
Most antag objectives are fairly boring and also don't matter at all because antags can just do anything they want. Cult gamemodes restrict players to a certain playstyle to have a good chance at winning else one side just gets brutally owned. A lot of antags just choose to fuck the most shit up possible to end the round because escaping is their ultimate win condition anyway so they may as well do it asap.

Haevacht · Post by **Haevacht** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:22 am #265867

Cik wrote:it's easy enough to see the way forward

Then enlighten everyone.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:22 am

oranges wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:
oranges wrote:Every time they do you show up and call them a niggerfaggot, no wonder they dont' want to discuss with you
Ah yes the "they're doing it for your own good" argument again. Sorry oranges, I don't need you to tell me what I think about a PR, I can conclude it for myself thanks.

I appreciate the three whole replies we had before you started throwing out barbs though.
What part of my comment that points out that any time Kor has made a decision on something players showed up to ree about it and insult them is the "they're doing it for your own good argument" you dumb fucking drooler? (now there is a barb for you)

edit: cancelled my insult since you did walk back on that

Certainly there have been cases where Kor was completely in the right and people still threw a shitfit, but are you so certain in his infallibility that any complaints about Kor's (or the maintainsers) decision just be brushed off as errant whining about nothing? That sounds like a recipe for total disconnect and catastrophe, regardless of if they're "doing it for your own good".

onleavedontatme · Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:29 am

Of course I'm not infallible, that is why we have half a dozen other maintainers and the head coder and all the places for feedback. Even then we don't always get it right, but someone has to make a decision eventually, and it's not always going to line up with what you want.

JJRcop · Post by **JJRcop** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:32 am #265873

For what it's worth, as a contributor, I am fine with aligning to a direction given to me by maintainers, and being told what to code. I do have a personal dream of what I want SS13 to be, but I am happy to throw that away if it does not match up with the direction as decided by management, but I do want a direction.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:34 am

Kor wrote:Of course I'm not infallible, that is why we have half a dozen other maintainers and the head coder and all the places for feedback. Even then we don't always get it right, but someone has to make a decision eventually, and it's not always going to line up with what you want.

Call me crazy but all 7 of you seem extremely similar in thought. I've never seen a PR that struck me as one that say Oranges would never merge, Kor might and Remie would definitely.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:55 am #265883

You mean maintainers talk to overview code and features to discuss their merits and cons, and reach a consensus later on?

Wow, fucking crazy

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:56 am #265884

Haevacht wrote:
Cik wrote:it's easy enough to see the way forward
Then enlighten everyone.

i have posted exhaustively in other threads, without much response. at least in part engineering needs:

incentives to produce more power; APC overdrives that improve machine efficiency / output while using more power, the ability to sell the power for points or outputs for it (giant lavaland death lasers, station shields, atmos generation, exotic particle creation/interaction (factors into research etc)

atmos needs to not be infinite. replace the tanks with machines and a more limited storage so it needs to be produced. in decently long rounds.

continue improving supermatter, tune power requirements to it. power is way too plentiful, and too easy.

space needs to become way more deadly, so that engineering as a department is actually needed. as it is people just moonwalk through breaches without a care in the world, which is fucking ridiculous. i mean what a joke, seriously.

more incentive needs to be given to sillicons to care about station integrity. as it is sillicons' attitude mirrors that of the crew; they simply don't care for the most part. engiborgs doing repairs is the same as human engineers: an afterhought barely bothered with because >muh shuttle calls

incentives need to be given to stay on the fucking station. shuttle calls ruin any real persistence this game is supposed to have because anything you build will be wiped out 15 minutes later by johnny murderbone killing everyone on the other side of the station. anything repaired, likewise.

engineering needs to able to control power flow on a by-department and by room basis.

this is just for engineering of course, but with this framework one can expand the mechanics of many departments. increased use for power means there is collaboration potential between engineering and everyone else. new items, creatable by engine reaction can expand science, botany, medbay mechanics. all without probably starting a shitstorm about muh balance muh antag

Haevacht · Post by **Haevacht** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:00 am #265886

Cik wrote:
Haevacht wrote:
Cik wrote:it's easy enough to see the way forward
Then enlighten everyone.
i have posted exhaustively in other threads, without much response. at least in part engineering needs:

incentives to produce more power; APC overdrives that improve machine efficiency / output while using more power, the ability to sell the power for points or outputs for it (giant lavaland death lasers, station shields, atmos generation, exotic particle creation/interaction (factors into research etc)

atmos needs to not be infinite. replace the tanks with machines and a more limited storage so it needs to be produced. in decently long rounds.

continue improving supermatter, tune power requirements to it. power is way too plentiful, and too easy.

space needs to become way more deadly, so that engineering as a department is actually needed. as it is people just moonwalk through breaches without a care in the world, which is fucking ridiculous. i mean what a joke, seriously.

more incentive needs to be given to sillicons to care about station integrity. as it is sillicons' attitude mirrors that of the crew; they simply don't care for the most part. engiborgs doing repairs is the same as human engineers: an afterhought barely bothered with because >muh shuttle calls

incentives need to be given to stay on the fucking station. shuttle calls ruin any real persistence this game is supposed to have because anything you build will be wiped out 15 minutes later by johnny murderbone killing everyone on the other side of the station. anything repaired, likewise.

engineering needs to able to control power flow on a by-department and by room basis.

this is just for engineering of course, but with this framework one can expand the mechanics of many departments. increased use for power means there is collaboration potential between engineering and everyone else. new items, creatable by engine reaction can expand science, botany, medbay mechanics. all without probably starting a shitstorm about muh balance muh antag

See? Now you're being useful.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:13 am #265893

i've always been useful you nonce, my usefulness exists independently of your opinion you jerk

Therein lies the issue. Speaking as a coder who has made many shiny TF2 hats it's because I do not know what is wrong with the systems we have. I code the things I think are cool and I do not know how to improve other things. I don't have time to play every job constantly so I rely on players to help me.

also xhuis don't sell yourself short, you've made a few p. cool gamemodes which is at least different than "adds powercreep" "adds a hat" "adds more stuff to science t.mekhi"

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:15 am #265894

Yes Haev, you are coming off as very condescending in this thread not to mention others. People say things elsewhere; you need only to look.

Haevacht · Post by **Haevacht** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:21 am #265895

Xhuis wrote:Yes Haev, you are coming off as very condescending in this thread not to mention others. People say things elsewhere; you need only to look.

If my condescension spurs others to action, then so be it. Or spurs the spread of knowledge.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:25 am

I post plenty of ideas, Heav. Nobody acts on them though. Also don't be a dick.

Haevacht · Post by **Haevacht** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:37 am #265897

ShadowDimentio wrote:I post plenty of ideas, Heav. Nobody acts on them though. Also don't be a dick.

You could act on them if you got over being rejected for making an item obsolete.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:05 am #265900

it's tragic that the fact of the matter is we can't ever really achieve a "direction" because of the things oranges pointed out
we just don't have the kind of ecosystem that can allow that kind of unity

Our server is very shallow but one of the main problems comes from our playerbase. Many people do not like to spend a ton of time doing one thing and with how short rounds are we might not be able to make effective deep systems without the shuttle being called and destroying it. I would like to reduce the feature bloat (like all the traitor items that are not bought) and work on existing stuff but add new stuff that's deep too so we can have the best of both worlds. If we have a narrow, deep pond, it is still a pond. If we have a wide, shallow lake, it is a lake. Wide and deep is an ocean and that is what I and lots of people want.

Rounds have to become longer, and tasks have to become harder (and more complex and whatever, "deeper").
If people aren't spoonfed everything and actually have shit to DO, they won't complain about rounds being longer.

In lifeweb, you spent the entire round struggling against the game desperately trying not to die
which kept you occupied for the whole round
somehow people didn't go afk because they had shit to do, tasks to accomplish
weird

edit: PS, shadow is fucking stupid

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:15 am #265901

I just wanna code in some new mech weapons...

Oranges is right, shit is shallowas fuck, but then everyone is right in that coders are shallow as fuck. 'You don't contribute you can't comment' fuck off. If a twat slams a helicopter into my roof and I go out to be met with a response of "Well you don't understand the intrica-" Yeah, no. I don't need to be able to fly a chopper to point out why hitting it into someones house is going to be poorly recieved.

The relationship between coders and players is fucking shitty. Like Will Ferrel with his son in that film about Megablocks. I aspire to be a elitist, patronising and a big a twat as the rest of the coders.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:19 am #265903

We're a quarter of the way into 2017 and people still think Shadow holds an opinion worth humoring.

That supermatter idea is top fucking notch though, the new lighting is gorgeous but could use a lot of work, and this shuttle transfer thing while doesn't change much about the game is still moderately interesting.

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:20 am #265904

Saegrimr wrote:We're a quarter of the way into 2017 and people still think Shadow holds an opinion worth humoring.

That supermatter idea is top fucking notch though, the new lighting is gorgeous but could use a lot of work, and this shuttle transfer thing while doesn't change much about the game is still moderately interesting.

Shuttle transfer is genuinely cool and weirdly one of my favourite new changes.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:24 am #265905

>be me
>coderbus makes me pee my pants
>lead actual successful rebellion against coderbus
>take over one of the two servers
>get bored and fuck off
>come back
>coderbus is the most open and accepting it has ever been
>fellow rebels are now maintainers and shit

and yet people who refuse to enter coderbus or look at the git or anything will still bitch about how evil coderbus is!!!! fight the power!!!! we will topple the coderbus shadow government!!!

I am your MLK analogue and I think you're stupid