Tackling the security problem: policy edition

[bandit]

From the post that is currently in the Feedback subforum:

Most of these suggestions are policy problems, especially sec/assistant maint (config option), admin enforcement, and general sec policy. Please only post code-related ideas (sec getting basic department access for example).

Policy problems go here.

[Saegrimr]

Personally I found it absurd that security has less access to the station than assistants do.

Sure, maybe sec doesn't need maint access but at least front-door access to every department is enough so they don't have to twiddle their thumbs untill the AI notices them screaming over comms.

And I personally find the brig sentences to be laughable. Two minutes for something where the whole chase/arrest/strip/whatever takes twice as long. Its why barely anybody updates security records aside from setting people to arrest for that beepsky vox2 (and then promptly forgetting to take arrest off so they get dragged back). Some kind of special device or locker that will fully strip inmates and replace them with an orange jumpsuit and automatically store the contents in the brig locker would speed up the arresting process so the time spent is actual BRIG TIME.

[mrpain]

Personally I found it absurd that security has less access to the station than assistants do.

Sure, maybe sec doesn't need maint access but at least front-door access to every department is enough so they don't have to twiddle their thumbs untill the AI notices them screaming over comms.

And I personally find the brig sentences to be laughable. Two minutes for something where the whole chase/arrest/strip/whatever takes twice as long. Its why barely anybody updates security records aside from setting people to arrest for that beepsky vox2 (and then promptly forgetting to take arrest off so they get dragged back). Some kind of special device or locker that will fully strip inmates and replace them with an orange jumpsuit and automatically store the contents in the brig locker would speed up the arresting process so the time spent is actual BRIG TIME.

Goon has a device that officers carry that automatically teleports prisoners to the brig. It might be useful here, it would certainly reduce the headache of playing sec here, and would give traitors something interesting to try to nab.

I also think we need to streamline the security records system. Maybe make them easier to update.

Sec just needs more toys. It's hard enough with the few people who play it as it is now.

[Rose-chan]

Sure, maybe sec doesn't need maint access

Why doesn't security get maintenance access?

[bandit]

Because when security has it traitors can't do anything because of constant patrols, and the detective is useless because anything he'd uncover security can get to easily.

[Steelpoint]

What Saegrimr said, Sec without Maint access is ok, but at least having basic departmental access would be a great boon.

[QuartzCrystal]

Basic departmental access and a device that transports a prisoner to "brig processing" for the warden to then sort out would solve a lot of issues. (the device should only work if someone is cuffed and held by the one using the device though)

[Lo6a4evskiy]

a device that transports a prisoner to "brig processing" for the warden

To be forgotten for 20 minutes when arrested for breaking a window or by mistake.

[QuartzCrystal]

a device that transports a prisoner to "brig processing" for the warden

To be forgotten for 20 minutes when arrested for breaking a window or by mistake.

Well this is the problem isn't it. The moment anyone suggests a way of making security easier to play, people just counter that with "But security is shit!" so then nothign ever changes and we always stay the same.

[callanrockslol]

Sec teleporter is a terrible idea, the current system works sorta, its really just a player issue, which it has always been

Sec teleporter would ruin my immursion, ruin rev and cult, possibly evrry other antag, be a nightmare if the clown gets it, make shitcurity the order of the day and make arrests much more borning and impersonal

Give officers a secured lead thry can tie to hsndcuffed people so that thry can drag them around and not be able to have them stolen away

[MisterPerson]

What is it with you people? This is a policy thread and everyone keeps talking about freaking code suggestions and ideas. Meanwhile the ideas thread on this topic is full of policy debate.

[Steelpoint]

That may have to do with how awkward it is to discuss Security when half of it relates to policy and the other half is not.

Just the topic of Security Access is split between a Policy discussion and a Code discussion. Meaning when you discuss one part of the topic your naturally going to talk about the other half. It does highlight the awkward position Security is in when discussing this stuff.

[callanrockslol]

There is nothing functionally wrong with sec, it's just happens that most people playing sec aren't as robust as the people they are supposed to be arresting.

[kosmos]

Some kind of special device or locker that will fully strip inmates and replace them with an orange jumpsuit and automatically store the contents in the brig locker would speed up the arresting process so the time spent is actual BRIG TIME.

Fund he! It's hard to invent new buff tools to security which won't buff antags as well when they steal it. This would be a nice buff to security but not so much use for antags if (when) it gets stolen.
Maybe make it so that it only works if someone is bucklecuffed to the bed, returning your cuffs as well, while stunning the prisoner for a while. Would save at least half a minute of hassle, or more.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You're not even supposed to fully strip people who aren't going to permabrig. It's literally just backpack, often pockets, sometimes belt, sometimes gloves, rarely headgear or radio. That's it, done, you can bucklecuff all you want now.

As far as policy goes, we just need to fight greytiding. So you can go fuck yourself, Kelenius, it's really all about greytiders. Security has a million ways to fuck up anyone whatsoever, it's just that counters to those tools are available to every greyshirt in the universe. Gas masks, sunglasses, disarm, stunprods, insulated, all those are widely available, because Ikarrus doesn't want maintenance tunnels to be fucking convenient and boring shortcuts for engies like they're supposed to be, he wants them to be fucking treasure chests.

I think that fucking with security, especially since they have antag protection, should be punishable by admins, but right now it's all "IC issue", so everyone just toes with the line all the time, ditching cuffed criminals, disarming batons or plain attacking. That's the most stressful part, in my opinion, when a bunch of people just starts fucking with you for no reason whatsoever and you can do shit about it.

By the way, there should be a toolbox in security breakroom and probably another one like in equipment room.

[peoplearestrange]

You're not even supposed to fully strip people who aren't going to permabrig. It's literally just backpack, often pockets, sometimes belt, sometimes gloves, rarely headgear or radio. That's it, done, you can bucklecuff all you want now.

Yeah I'm not gona do that. I always leave people with there uniforms, but I'll always take gloves, backpack, belt and empty pockets. The last time I didn't I had an doctor smashing his way out with his PDA. Of course it was never going to go anywhere but it was incredibly annoying, when I went to release them (timer up) they started to smash me in the face with it instead. So I gave them another 5 mins for assault on an officer. This caused the predicted "SHIT SEC!" over the comms and then went braindead before the timer was up.

I mean seriously people have a really really bad habbit of whining like idiots over 5-10 mins sentence so increasing times seems like a bad idea.

There's a really horrible and common attitude of scream "SEC ROUGE" "SHITSEC" as soon as anyone is arrested, even for actual just reasons, and mostly people side with the person screaming. This makes the job even tougher, especially when you set out to do some actual good. (Though I have no time for idiot traitors who go loud, in public and expect to get away with it and then whine about it when they inevitably get caught.)

[Helios127]

Just do the CDB method of adding two minutes if they "Reist arrest". That is, yell the inevitable HELP SEC ROGUE

Ten minutes? PERMA BRIG BITCHES!

No but seirously, if you wanna be goodsec dont do this.

There is nothing functionally wrong with sec, it's just happens that most people playing sec aren't as robust as the people they are supposed to be arresting.

[Steelpoint]

Basic graph I wrote up forever ago on what I believe to be the best way to approach arrest situations as a member of security.

Spoiler:

*EDIT*
The gist of that is to punish repeat offenders who come back for more, and those who actually did a severe crime. While being lenient on those who did a minor crime, as well as possible someone with a non-lethal/bad antag item (Chameleon Projector for example).

[Reimoo]

People fuck with security a lot because they know they can get away with it. Security simply isn't equipped well enough to effectively deal with the standard disgruntled crewmember (especially when there's more than one of them) and so they come off as a free weapon dispenser rather than a crime deterrent that they're supposed to be. You see in games and movies and such security guards carry a very serious presence and authority with them, but unfortunately this doesn't apply to /tg/ because the consequences of fucking with an officer simply aren't there. Ideally people should get the "Oh shit, the fuzz!" feeling when security shows up to a crime scene, but right now that simply isn't the case.

[Scott]

What happens a lot is when you're dragging a criminal to the brig and other shits try to stop you and drag your restrained criminal away, while they're not antags themselves and they're doing it just to spite security. I suggest making these cunts valid for anything, like WGW readers.

[Ikarrus]

Breaking prisoners out for no reason other than to shit on security makes you valid for admins. I urge officers frustrated by these kinds of people to let us know when it happens. I wouldn't mind if you just throw him into perma forever, either.

[Saegrimr]

I think that fucking with security, especially since they have antag protection, should be punishable by admins, but right now it's all "IC issue", so everyone just toes with the line all the time, ditching cuffed criminals, disarming batons or plain attacking. That's the most stressful part, in my opinion, when a bunch of people just starts fucking with you for no reason whatsoever and you can do shit about it.

The problem is its hard to catch, and hard to get the full story between three parties.
However if you catch a greytider or something and they start throwing a three mile hissyfit over it screaming "SHITCURITY", do not be afraid to ahelp it and drag them to the brig. Chances are they will ahelp about it too about "bloobloobloo sec permaing for no raisin"

http://www.tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#M ... raytide.22
>If a person that is intentional fucking with security is yelling "rouge sec", or something similar, when the arrest is valid, he should be instantly permabrigged.

I treat this much in the same way people screaming "BORGS ROGUE BLOW THEM". Its less a sec policy thing and more of a "people need to stop being greytiding tards" thing.

[Cipher3]

http://www.tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#M ... raytide.22
>If a person that is intentional fucking with security is yelling "rouge sec", or something similar, when the arrest is valid, he should be instantly permabrigged.

I need to remember that in the future.

[Alex Crimson]

As i have said many times, i feel like the problem with Sec is that admins are too strict with them. Not sure if its the case with everyone, but personally i shy away from the Sec role because i feel like the slightest mistake will net me a jobban/server ban.

[callanrockslol]

As i have said many times, i feel like the problem with Sec is that admins are too strict with them. Not sure if its the case with everyone, but personally i shy away from the Sec role because i feel like the slightest mistake will net me a jobban/server ban.

It yoyos, sec isnt that bad now, but they used to be infallable, unbanabke gods, hence why shitcurity was a problem and they got robusted ny everyone rlse.

Its fine as it is, the only problem is players being worse at fighting than the criminals, sec already starts with enough gear to subjegate the station befor3 guncargo arms up

Its a competence issue, not a code or policy issue. Ive spent enough time on both ends of sec to know

[bandit]

http://www.tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#M ... raytide.22
>If a person that is intentional fucking with security is yelling "rouge sec", or something similar, when the arrest is valid, he should be instantly permabrigged.

I need to remember that in the future.

The problem is that they will adminhelp and you will get BWOINK!ed. And even if you haven't done anything wrong, that's still time you have to spend explaining shit to the admin, during which the graytide's still gonna graytide.

[Aurx]

Currently, this thread is not in a reportable state due to minimal quantity of actual policy discussion. If you want me to prepare a report on this thread and attract headmin attention, stop talking about code matters. I don't report to the coders, and there's no point in telling the headmins about code matters.
Also, given the number of possible sub-debates in any discussion of security policy, please clearly denote what section of policy each of your arguments is related to.

[Antimattercarp]

One of the weirdest things about the attitude to sec is that people seem to want to assign the responsibility without assigning the trust to go along with that.
Really sec should be matched up to fight Ops rather than traitors like I feel they are now and should receive the cool toys to reflect that. Sec should also be an inherently trusted position with added responsibility to match that trust. Currently this is not the case, Sec gets boinked harder and is the same threat level as a particularly paranoid bartender wearing a big 'ol sandwich-board with SHOOT ME FIRST printed in nice friendly letters.

I propose that because this responsibility is already there that it become policy that additions to Sec are unable to be blocked due to fear of abuse and solely abuse, not meaning that said additions can later be removed when abuse is proven.

secondarily in exchange for giving sec a bit more leeway with "powergaming" let it be that committing a offense as sec or another trusted position can be tacked on to disciplinary action.

edit: Changed bans to disciplinary action

[Raven776]

I dunno man, in the old days I got bwoinked hard, but these days I practically get whispers by admins to throw people into perma when they notice shit is going down.

On two occasions I've been given the go-ahead to throw a greytide in perma without asking first.

Only once have I been bwoinked for something over the past week, and that was during a changeling round and some guy I wasn't too sure about was incinerated by the Warden. I stated everything that happened clearly and to the best of my ability, cited that the entirety of the chapel was rubberneckers and a circus, and he seemed happy with that since the guy was acting shifty as fuck and some asshole lied about getting cryostung by him to us.

I understand anecdotal evidence is the least reliable form of evidence, but so long as you're not spacing people or throwing a clown in the perma brig, you should be fine.

[Antimattercarp]

All depends on who is on, Sometimes you can do what you said other times you get bowinked for setting up barricades like the other thread says

[lumipharon]

It's really frustrating when random fuckers fuck with you, but in a way that won't be logged, and you don't catch their name. Such as a random pulling a guy you're dragging away from you and running off.
Or when it's lot's of them so you can't see who is doing what.

This is where the stun nerf is annoying as shit, actual security matters, not fighting. When there is three fuckers being shitty, I used to be able to flashbang/tase them all, and bucklecuff them/keep them all stunned until support arrives. Nowadays, you'll burn through all your stuns way to fast, hell, even two people, unless there are chairs right there, you won't be able to secure them both.

[Pandarsenic]

I'd say "kill them for being tidal shits or antags" but that's probably why I'm not in charge of sec.

[Timbrewolf]

Sec should be our go to antag hunting badasses. If people want to play SS13 to have a fighty combat intensive game they should be playing as sec officer, not a cargo technician or an assistant begging for genetic powers and guns from the RD.

There's a lot of robust items that have creeped into the game over time that, from a balancing perspective, have no point being there. They've usurpred sec's role as the toughest, most well armed faction on the station. If you want to get players playing sec again you have to give them something to do again. There are a couple ways you could do this. Try any single one of the following, combining them probably wouldn't work:

1) Empower sec. Give them more stuff and more access. Some new toys to play with and the independence to patrol the entire station without having to cry to the AI to get let into departments. Outside of special offices and dangerous areas they should probably be allowed into everywhere already. They're the fucking police, for fuck's sake.

2) Remove AI. I mentioned this in the previous thread about AI policy. The AI does most of sec's job for them and in most rounds is a functional replacement for the HoS.

3) Remove sec standards. Abandon the notion that our sec players are held to a higher standard and just let them play the game like any other person on the station would. Embrace the shit, because this is what we've become.

Also:

a device that transports a prisoner to "brig processing" for the warden

To be forgotten for 20 minutes when arrested for breaking a window or by mistake.

[Raven776]

Removing the AI seems pretty drastic and no fun and empowering security is a vague idea and has every chance to backfire...

But I'm actually kinda happy with the idea of removing security standards. Pretty much every job is allowed to be at a ten out of ten in productivity and metagaming from round start to round end. Virologist is cooking up a super disease of death or healing, genetics is finding halk, science is making bombs, and everyone else is breeding up the latest powergamey way to handle every threat that might come up or just prove they are the most powerful...

But security is forced to go at it slowly. They're forced to ONLY use the approved methods of taking down prisoners, patrolling, or protecting themselves. If you're dragging a beepsky, you can get ridiculed or outright banned. If you place tables down in the brig, which seems like a very amusing and thoughtful way to make a fight in the brig easier, you'll get bwoinked or banned depending on who's on...

Cargo decides to bucklecuff a clown and stick an electropack on him and taze him over and over? Cargonia stronk. Security puts the clown in the gulag for slipping an officer, overall taking less time than the cargonia roughing up would take? BWOINK!

I've never even remembered a time that I've put someone in the gulag and they didn't instantly decide their job was to actual do work there. More often than not they instantly start disarming/punching the officer who did it. 100 points, 500 points, 1000 points, they could be the perpetrator of three counts of grand theft and you're still just letting them off with a miniature perma sentence instead of actual perma or borging. I get bwoinked for using the space law guidelines to gulag people who tide.

My entire dogma behind playing security is to keep as many people in the round as possible. If I kill a changeling, I will make sure to brain the fucker or stick him in a secured xenobio cell. I'm still shitcurity though. I don't think I've ever seen anyone that people don't consider shitcurity.

So these higher security standards exist against a notion that security have the higher ability to be awful when more fun toys are given to others.

I've yet to see a day that a non-traitor geneticist is given a job ban for handing out halk or a virologist is job banned for making a benificial but chaos inducing disease.

[Reimoo]

1) Empower sec. Give them more stuff and more access. Some new toys to play with and the independence to patrol the entire station without having to cry to the AI to get let into departments. Outside of special offices and dangerous areas they should probably be allowed into everywhere already. They're the fucking police, for fuck's sake.

2) Remove AI. I mentioned this in the previous thread about AI policy. The AI does most of sec's job for them and in most rounds is a functional replacement for the HoS.

3) Remove sec standards. Abandon the notion that our sec players are held to a higher standard and just let them play the game like any other person on the station would. Embrace the shit, because this is what we've become.

Options 2 and 3 are absolutely terrible and they only solve one problem while introducing several others that are even worse. Only valid option that might have a chance of working is option 1. Sec has been in need of some buffs for a long time. Although I think they should just have front door access to departments only.

[bandit]

There's also option 4: ban fucking graytiders. But for some reason everyone seems reluctant to implement it.

[Timbrewolf]

There's also option 4: ban fucking graytiders. But for some reason everyone seems reluctant to implement it.

That's bullshit. Myself and others threw permas at people pending appeal all the time. You might not see it because we don't normally announce that and they would rarely appeal it but it happened.

I can think of some people who are playing right now that are probably worth throwing out the airlock, but the problem is whenever you do you get a chorus of people complaining that "Oh no so-and-so is the heart of the station! If you remove him you remove fun!"

[Psyentific]

whenever you do you get a chorus of people complaining that "Oh no so-and-so is the heart of the station! If you remove him you remove fun!"

Isn't the admins job to ignore their metabuddies, point to the rules, and do it anyway?

[cedarbridge]

whenever you do you get a chorus of people complaining that "Oh no so-and-so is the heart of the station! If you remove him you remove fun!"

Isn't the admins job to ignore their metabuddies, point to the rules, and do it anyway?

Those make the best FNR threads

[paprika]

you have people like kavaloosh and iteq literally saying 'lol admins can't touch me' constantly and while they're intending it to be an ironic joke it's pretty much true because every time they get banned people contest the bans to fuck and back just because 'oh they always do that'

cdb avoided bans for being a shitler in sec forever just because he always was a shitler in sec. same rules apply.

[Psyentific]

cdb avoided bans for being a shitler in sec forever just because he always was a shitler in sec. same rules apply.

CDB got made an admin before we got rid of him, and there's this 'proud' 'tradition' of turning shitty players into admins because one of them was a decent admin, once or twice maybe.

[callanrockslol]

CDB DEFENCE FORCE ACTIVATE

CDB followed Space Law to the letter and was reviled for it, CDB was also not usually awful to play with when not sec, Space Law is objectively shit and people should sop treating it as gospel (all 2 of you that do this, stop)

Anon, you know exactly why we hold sec to a higher standard, sec used to be jackbooted thugs that usually ended up brutally rebelled against and exterminated, either that or completely untouchable because they could do no wrong the admins said so


Also
> Uhangi
> bad admin
Awful player though

[cedarbridge]

CDB DEFENCE FORCE ACTIVATE

CDB followed Space Law to the letter and was reviled for it, CDB was also not usually awful to play with when not sec, Space Law is objectively shit and people should sop treating it as gospel (all 2 of you that do this, stop)

Anon, you know exactly why we hold sec to a higher standard, sec used to be jackbooted thugs that usually ended up brutally rebelled against and exterminated, either that or completely untouchable because they could do no wrong the admins said so


Also
> Uhangi
> bad admin
Awful player though

His shoes are p ok though.

[paprika]

No actually sec used to be rebelled against because they could be traitors. This isn't the case now. Sec is basically always trustable unless a clever cult or lings take over, but by default sec has no reason to not be trusted unless they're assholes but that enters the territory of ahelp and jobbans rather than violent lynch mobs against sec.

You can say it was previous sec attitude, but we all know the real reason why sec was hated. Every time you got dragged into the isolation cell to be absorbed or killed by an antag sec member you grew pretty fond of avoiding sec at all costs.

[bandit]

No actually sec used to be rebelled against because they could be traitors. This isn't the case now. Sec is basically always trustable unless a clever cult or lings take over, but by default sec has no reason to not be trusted unless they're assholes but that enters the territory of ahelp and jobbans rather than violent lynch mobs against sec.

You can say it was previous sec attitude, but we all know the real reason why sec was hated. Every time you got dragged into the isolation cell to be absorbed or killed by an antag sec member you grew pretty fond of avoiding sec at all costs.

The rise in graytiding, rather than the fall, since sec-antag was removed has thoroughly disproved this. No one seriously believed it then, much less the graytiders, and no one should believe it now.

[Steelpoint]

I think you'll find that people have always hated Security even when they could be antagonists. Its just that now they have less legitimate reasons to hate Security in game, and now its more of a past time, and that Sec are often at conflict/confusion/fear on how to deal with the greytide.

[bandit]

I don't even think it has anything to do with sec-antag -- I'm pretty sure that is an excuse the gray tide pulled out of their ass that is since being parroted by players who should know better. To me it's simple:

People hate people who ruin their fun.
Graytiders have fun by griefing.
People who grief for fun hate the people whose job it is to ruin that fun. (An OOC example of this is FNR.)

[Steelpoint]

That helps sum up the core issue with Security.

Its Security's job to end people's 'fun'. They are the in game police, they stop the antags doing their thing. They are in essence the fun police. That is not only the core reason people dislike Security, but why the problem will never go away because that is also the core of Security's job.

Also to conject. The reason why Security see's a lot of OOC restrictions and admin scrutiny is simply because Security is judged based on doing its job, essentially its capability to fight antagonists and stop people. Whereas everyone else is judged based on the content of their job, which is not related to arresting people and stopping antagonists. Hence why robotics making Durands, Assistants making Stun Prods at round start, the Chemist stocking up on toxins, Scientist carrying a bomb around, Cargo ordering guns, etc, is not looked down upon so much.

I recently witnessed a round where a Engineer turned Engineering into a fort not far into the round. That was fine afaik. Yet when Security takes similar measures (That are not even as close to the level of defence as engineering can get) its instantly seen as powergaming by some, and often shut down.

[Psyentific]

I dunno - I throw up the barriers in Secmaint, Secpod and Courtroom every round. Pull the N2O canisters away from the gulag shuttle and slap 'em in Armory or Perma. The flashers come out on red alert or confirmed revs. Maybe, maybe I'll put one behind the perma doors. That's it. I've never needed any more for brig security. Close the shutters sometimes, maybe. No table bullshit, no emitters, no walls, grilles or engineering work. Not even stealthbolts.

The fact of the matter is that the brig is 'Secure enough', especially if you're the Warden, whose entire job is dedicated to guarding this specific area, who maintains visibility of that area from his office or the front desk, and who can reliably be assumed to be "Not currently doing his job" if he's outside of the brig. I'm not saying there aren't holes, but rather that the barriers are enough to close those holes and you don't really need to get crazy with it.

[Timbrewolf]

Anon, you know exactly why we hold sec to a higher standard, sec used to be jackbooted thugs that usually ended up brutally rebelled against and exterminated, either that or completely untouchable because they could do no wrong the admins said so

If it's between the sec force we had then and the sec force we had now, I'd still rather take the jackbooted thugs over HEY IT'S FUCKING NOBODY.

The number of times someone complained that sec was shit vs. the number of times sec was actually being shit was in the order of at least 10:1. If not 100:1. Like most of it was

"SEC ARRESTIN ME I DIN DO NUFFIN"
okay it looks like they caught you in secure tech storage looting the place
"I DIN TAKE SHIT"
i'm looking in your backpack right now
"FUK U THIS SERVER SUCKS"

My years of observing and adminning on the prowl for these horrible shitcurity people has made me really, REALLY biased for security because frankly I think most people are completely full of shit and hate security because they actually make consequences for them running around acting like jerks. Certainly there are some people who put on the red to be assholes, but even CDB followed the guidelines. Don't break the law and nothing will happen to you. If you have to run around smashing in everywhere, stealing everything, and randomly punching people to have fun then yes security is going to be on your ass all the time and you're going to learn to hate them. But also fuck you.