C4 Nerf Discussion

[tunderchief]

Was nerfing C4 EVER discussed or voted upon, or was it some butthurt unrobust person who did the nerf and pushed it through himself?

Parapen was arguably overpowered, but C4 should not have been messed with.

[Steelpoint]

The C4 nerf was somewhat discussed in the Parapen Nerf thread here.

http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=868&

Unfortunately due to a lot of "shitposting" and constant derailing it became impossible to hold a semi-sensible discussion before the thread was locked.

However that's no reason to discuss the implications of the C4 nerf.

[Alex Crimson]

So as i understand it, C4 can no longer stick to mobs? I see no problem with that. However there is a problem in that it didnt get a separate topic for discussion and voting.

[Steelpoint]

I should mention that before the parapen thread descended into madness, the general consensus (IE: Most people aside from two or so people) was that adjusting C4 to not be able to gib a target, and decreasing its cost to 1 TC, was fine, in relation to forcing antags away from the standard Parapen+C4 tactic.

Also don't forget the Mini-Bomb still gibs a target.

[tunderchief]

>his comment is countered

>deletes his comment and the comment countering it


Anyway, This thread is as much about how shitty it is to push nerfs/buffs into server code without community input and voting, as it is about this specific nerf.

[Steelpoint]

Oh, and Ikarrus.

Your not helping your position by feeding the "machine" by deleting these posts.

All I see is this getting locked thanks to all this deleting. Hopefully we can try and stay on topic.

[Ikarrus]

I'm not trying to shut down the topic, since I still believe this discussion has merit. All I ask is that people keep this about C4 and not make hostile comments towards others.

[Kelenius]

Traitors being able to attach C4 to mobs to gib them was not fun for anyone but greentextseekers. So yeah, I'm all for the nerf.

Minibomb costs slightly more, requires a little more time, and is not an instant ggnore the moment it's thrown.

[Miauw]

The C4 thing was a compromise to get the parapen changes into the game. I should probably have made a poll.

That said, most people seem to be in favor of the changes to C4, and it's not like you can't throw the corpses out of an airlock or just hide them in a locker in the construction area or something like in ye olden days.

[Stickymayhem]

I love the c4 change. I am all for introducing a variety of cheap items that can be mixed and matched in strategic combination. This makes c4 a great filler item to spend a TC or two on.

Para C4 wasn't fun for anyone but was extremely effective.

[MedicInDisquise]

Stunned-c4 was extremely easy to do, and was no fun for either the Antag or the Victim. The only downside was that it was screaming to the world you were a traitor.. if you did it in public or was meaning to go loud anyways.

I'm glad with the c4 being changed to purely an TOOL to destroy a small area or breach into, say, the vault or security. Instead of an extremely powerful weapon.

If you were using it before to destroy or hide evidence, there are other ways of doing so.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You can have 10 items that instantly gib with very little input from your side. If anything it was a buff.

Just compare it to other 1 TC items.

[Reimoo]

I'm all for the nerf. That being said, I think the area of destruction needs to be slightly larger. It should be large enough to emphasize that it's main purpose is to cause damage but it still shouldn't cause a hull breach.

[Swagile]

You can still gib people. Just rig a signaller on it after revolvering / ebowing (if you are good enough / fast enough) the guy and then placing it in his pocket. Then signal the frequency.

Insta gib.

The C4 TC cost is actually a buff.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

I'm all for the nerf. That being said, I think the area of destruction needs to be slightly larger. It should be large enough to emphasize that it's main purpose is to cause damage but it still shouldn't cause a hull breach.

The main purpose is to blow up a piece of wall, not everything around it. It's not a grenade.

[Miauw]

Should I make it impossible to gib people with C4?

[Steelpoint]

If its possible just have the C4 deal brute damage to the target, say 20-60 damage.

[Scott]

It should at the very least put you in critical.

[Alex Crimson]

Should I make it impossible to gib people with C4?

Its C4. Its going to gib people if it detonates on them. Just increase its TC cost to 2-3.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

It should instantly kill people severely maiming them (like from long space exposure) and gib corpses at the very least. Make it attachable to corpses.

[paprika]

>discussing nerfs

[Miauw]

>easy corpse disposal
>good thing

ayy lmao

lets make this pretty clear
there is a fucking reason the gibber is such an unwieldy machine
and that is because being gibbed sucks.
git gud and hide your corpses or throw them into space.

[MisterPerson]

You can still gib people. Just rig a signaller on it after revolvering / ebowing (if you are good enough / fast enough) the guy and then placing it in his pocket. Then signal the frequency.

Insta gib.

The C4 TC cost is actually a buff.

Really we really should remove the wires from them as well.

[Incomptinence]

>easy corpse disposal
>good thing

ayy lmao

lets make this pretty clear
there is a fucking reason the gibber is such an unwieldy machine
and that is because being gibbed sucks.
git gud and hide your corpses or throw them into space.

Eh nerf herders are just going to power game harder over time and make more genetices back ups.

Also bringing the gibber up as an "unwieldy machine" (just strip gud) and ignoring the much more user friendly crematorium.

Dead imbeciles don't create good game play let em rot.

Really we really should remove the wires from them as well.

Wires are great and are about the only feature on c4 that ever required any thought.

[MisterPerson]

Or maybe special case it not to gib mobs, I suppose that would work too.

[Miauw]

I wouldn't remove the wires, they're fun and good. I'd just not make them gib mobs.

Gibber is unwieldy when compared to C4.

[MisterPerson]

For the record, if it was a choice between wires and no wires and having wires meant gibbing mobs, there would be no wires.

[Douk]

I really don't think that C4 needs another nerf. As it stands (at least from my experience since the big nerf), C4 is seeing similar use to what it experienced in the day when it was inevitably paired with the now defunct parapen. However, I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing per say. The big problem about parapen-C4 was that there was no way of fighting back against it, and it was essentially a foolproof way of making a kill that could not return. While the "cannot return" part is still present in the form of gibbing, it is much more difficult now to actually get the C4 on the person in question. Its no longer a matter of "stick it on the chest and run." It requires prior setup and proper placement as the process of weaponizing the C4 is more cumbersome. A lot more has to be put and place and, subsequently, go wrong between buying the C4 and getting the C4 on/to the target in a way that will be lethal.

Removing the red wire for detonation would make C4 just another in a long line of unused and forgotten items. Its only purpose at that point would be to cause minor environmental destruction; destruction that could be equaled if not vastly surpassed by other tools. C4 is no longer a malleable tool or weapon after such a nerf.

Removing the gibbing or high damage removes a good amount of purpose and initial intent of the item. Let's face it: too many explosives and other destructive phenomena have already lost their teeth in no longer being able to gib. C4 was designed to be incredibly deadly when weaponized, but it really only works if the person is either
a)Holding the bomb or has the bomb in their inventory, or
b)standing on top of the bomb.
In any other situation, C4 does negligible damage and isn't really worth the risk or TC to use. Its a weapon that requires you be up close and personal with your target essentially from start of conflict to bloody exploding end, or you plan your moves carefully in such a way where you can be standing at a safe distance when the walls are painted red. It's the kind of engagement that a lot of the most robust traitor items don't really require from you. Power sinks only need that you have an exposed wire that people aren't going to notice quickly (boiling down to a few key locations around the station). Same deal with singularity beacons. Syndicate bombs, assuming the time limit was set relatively low to allow escape but not disarming, requires only that nobody sees you place it in the first place; yet the devastation it causes often will cause a shuttle call if it's in the right place. Ebow + Esword usually disables its victims so quickly that there is no time/ability to fight back nor ample time to make an effective and informative call for help. I could go on, but I think you get the point. C4 CAN be used to just slip into some stun guy's pocket and throw a switch, but it's risky, confrontational, and can go awry very quickly if timed wrong. On top of that, it can be set up in other was that are sneakier or more interesting. Hell, I've in the past used it as an effective and dangerous tool to allow for hostage situations. I know there was another thread in the ideas section that talked about an explosive collar that works EXACTLY like C4 can if set up properly and information about your setup is managed properly during the stand-up.

The only nerf that I might understand would be raising the cost up to 2 TC to prevent spammed use, but even then this mostly seems like a non-issue. Yes, being killed/gibbed by such a small items sucks, but so does regular explosives. At that, regular syndicate bombs are far less dynamic, meaninglessly destructive, cause more deaths and gibbings, and are in my opinion far too available to your average traitor. This is coming from someone who's past tactics usually involved blowing all my points on syndicate bombs and crippling the station shortly after round start: if you want to point the finger at a nerf for explosives, C4 is benign. C4 takes some forethought and is, by nature of design, targeted/precise. It is powerful, but only when applied to the right person, at the right place, at the right time, and with the right preparation.

[MisterPerson]

I think the difference is that I see gibbing mobs with C4 as stupid. Disposing of bodies should be risky, not trivial. C4 makes it trivial. In fact C4 is superior to all other methods because you don't have to move and risk getting caught dragging a body around and leaving bloodstains all over the place. Unless you're literally next to a gibber, it'd be better to just buy C4 than anything else you can do to dispose of the body.

Optimal strategy = removing player choice and interaction = bad.

[Miauw]

The point is that C4 shouldn't be a weapon: it should be used for explosive sabotage.

[Steelpoint]

I find it amusing that almost everyone aside from the OP supports the C4 nerf.

[Scott]

Nerfing Syndicate items is pretty dumb, yo.

[cedarbridge]

The point is that C4 shouldn't be a weapon: it should be used for explosive sabotage.

Not empty quoting.

[Douk]

The point is that C4 shouldn't be a weapon: it should be used for explosive sabotage.

Then it's a fairly useless sabotage item at that. A one-tile destruction with only minor damage to surrounding tiles makes for an incredibly situation item. About the only places where it would really have use that other tools wouldn't be more useful/reusable/cost-effective is when taking out things like SMES cells or grav generator. Even then, you'd need 3 C4 to completely blow the stations power, and would be better off buying a minibomb that could take all three cells out in one blow.
Take the weapon aspect out of the picture, and C4 becomes something that your average traitor isn't ever going to buy. At least by having the OPTION of using it either way to some effect makes it useful as a multipurpose item. At least right now there is some actual menace when someone gets caught up in the same tile as a high explosive, or even more so if they are carrying the device when it goes off. Out of all the other explosives (minus IEDs) currently in the game, why should C4 be the one that gains so much ire considering its the one that requires the most preparation and precision to use? Minibombs are quicker and more deadly if you are looking to gib, but nobody seems to have a problem with them for as frequent they are used. They also cause more damage if the goal is sabotage, causing a small but dangerous hull breach along with the destruction of just about anything around them.
C4 is benign, why nerf it while leaving all other traitor explosives untouched?

[MedicInDisquise]

It has a niche, which isn't deadly hullbreaching weapon. The minibomb/bomb does that.

You use the C4 to break into places such as the Vault, AI, Security, etc without making a huge hullbreach or having to carry a load of tools. It reverts airlocks to the unsecured form that you can push/pull, so keep that in mind.