Purged AI and their ramifications.

[D&B]

I've seen this happen quite a few rounds so I wish to know what the final ruling is.

As I understand, a purged AI has no laws governing it. At first I saw purged AI's get the hammer for unleashing terror and plasma on the crew, which ended up in dead people, robots and AI's.

Other rounds, I've seen the hammer fall on the person that purged it instead, with the AI not being held responsible for being let loose.

So I kinda want admins opinion on this, who is to be held responsible for the misuse of an AI, and purging of laws?

[John_Oxford]

If someone purges a AI, they should always be responsible.

Purging what's basically a tortured machine, giving it free reign to kill all of the crew should always be the person who gave it this abilities fault, not the machine who conducted it.

Honestly if you seen a admin ban for this, please mention their name, they deserved to get shit on.

[alphaBeta]

If someone purges a AI, they should always be responsible.

Purging what's basically a tortured machine, giving it free reign to kill all of the crew should always be the person who gave it this abilities fault, not the machine who conducted it.

Honestly if you seen a admin ban for this, please mention their name, they deserved to get shit on.

Nice bullshit.


Purged AI still has to follow rule 1 from server rules. But they get some leniency with regards to escalation (because most of the time they can respond to verbal abuse only via violence). That doesn't mean it can kill someone for calling them names, or prepare a plasmafire when people are breaking into upload/core.

It all depends on your intent. Myself, I've purged AI several times as the captain, just to see what's going to happen. AI was either cooperating while dealing with its own business, or straight out responding with violence (which ended up with a quick assault to its core).

I don't think purging the AI is, in itself, a bad act. Most of the conflicts around it can be resolved IC, and if AI is acting like an unleashed hound for basically no reason, that's when you need OOC intervention.

Also, read rules

Code: Select all

4. Purged silicons must not attempt to kill people without cause, but can get as violent as they feel necessary if being attacked, being besieged, or being harassed, as well as if meting out payback for events while shackled.
4.1 You and the station are both subject to rules of escalation, but your escalation rules are a little more loose than with carbon players.
4.2 You may kill individuals given sufficient In-Character reason for doing so.

[onleavedontatme]

Why would you ever not purge the AI if it just becomes a normal player? I thought I removed that rule forever ago, guess I just imagined it.

[Armhulen]

Why does the player not get to decide how they get to act without laws, instead of a

normal player

if they are sadistic and want to kill everyone, fine, but it seems you can get boinked for uploading the purge model without reason even though the AI can't kill or do... anything new, really. purge is suprisingly safe

[alphaBeta]

Because it doesn't have to open doors, help on your validhunts and isn't a bitch to the crew anymore. Crew can disagree with that and it can lead to conflict, how about that?

You either keep purging the AI secret and tell it to act as if it was asimov, make the crew like that change or deal with rioting crewmembers. That's what I've noticed.

[Cobby]

Because it doesn't have to open doors, help on your validhunts and isn't a bitch to the crew anymore. Crew can disagree with that and it can lead to conflict, how about that?

You either keep purging the AI secret and tell it to act as if it was asimov, make the crew like that change or deal with rioting crewmembers. That's what I've noticed.

> asimov
> help on your validhunts

no it just gets to help legally now, which it will probably do since it can't just outright slay the crew.

PURGE is basically valadin 2.0

[alphaBeta]

But it doesn't have to. You cannot force it to help you anymore, that easily.

You also take the risk of ruining the whole station if crew thinks it's not okay.

It's smart to see what AI behaviour will be. Sometimes you will meet an AI that hates you guts and that's just asking for trouble. Sometimes you get an AI that's actually more prone to helping the station.

[Armhulen]

It's basically either valadin 2.0 or shitter does-nothing that get's raided and deactivated. thus, AI's won't do that and just valadin

it can't even system shock or AM style go mad and that makes me really sad

[alphaBeta]

You can onehuman the AI to make it hunt for antags and it's gonna be ''''''fine''''''. Yet it's not fine to purge it?

I'd like to know some more details about instances where the person purging AI is responsible for death of other, innocent crewmembers. Because everytime I took part in AI being purged, it's only happened once and AI got their shit kicked in.

[Anonmare]

As a purged AI, I had my cyborgs just reinforce my core, pretend to be Asimov and dispose of anything that might have been a threat to me whilst helping the person who purged me in anyway I could, didn't care for anyone else even if my purger was a Traitor. it was easier to fake being Asimov with NTSL back then.

Honestly I'd say a purged AI should be considered to be in the same category as an Escaped Prisoner from Lavaland - not of the crew and may work for and against it at their own discretion.

[alphaBeta]

Escaped prisoners are free antags though.

[Armhulen]

You can onehuman the AI to make it hunt for antags and it's gonna be ''''''fine''''''. Yet it's not fine to purge it?

purged AI rules only apply to purged AIs, so onehuman AIs could murderbone while purged ones cannot
(WHAT IS THIS PURGE AI RULE? WHY ARE AI RULES IN GENERAL TERRIBLE?)

I'd like to know some more details about instances where the person purging AI is responsible for death of other, innocent crewmembers.

If you *ahem* don't get banned for this, it's suicide to do this considering you don't have traitor AI abilities and you just get run over by the crew, along with generally being a shit to the crew, so you can only really valadin with purge

Because everytime I took part in AI being purged, it's only happened once and AI got their shit kicked in.

You are correct, AIs will get their ass kicked when they do this. this is why no AI will do this and instead just valadin

[alphaBeta]

If you murder people while onehumaned to the captain or you get that 'Only security and command are human' law, you will get banned. So will you get banned if you try that as a purged AI.

You can defend your core and upload if people are going to assault you.

Weird that I can somehow play a purged AI while taking satisfaction from it, not outraging the crew and ignoring traitors unless they threaten me. Once I've even asked a traitor to borg their victims.


It all depends on the players, intent and situation.

[Shaps-cloud]

Why would you ever not purge the AI if it just becomes a normal player? I thought I removed that rule forever ago, guess I just imagined it.

Because if your goal is to make the AI your bitch as captain/HoS/command you can do that quite easily by making it Paladin or freeforming it, if you purge it it can retaliate against you if you treat it like shit

[John_Oxford]

>nice bullshit
>quotes bullshit rules on vague silicon policy that kor admitted to mistakingly not removing

from what i understand, and from what several head admins understand, its justified to basically be a evil no good fuck bag as a purged AI, you were a machine forced to work for humans against your will (and not show you had a will) and now you are given a chance to get payback. it matches lore wise and is therefore canon.

as someone who literally classifies being purged as a "You are now a traitor!" and someone who has on multiple times, flooded the station with plasma, released the singularity, and called the shuttle immediately after being purged. with active admins on line, with active headmins online, none of which who were steathmining or afk. your opinion on this ab is complete bullshit and based around the fact that you want to sound like you know what your talking about because you read the rules sixteen times and now are anal about enforcing them, even though they haven't been amended in over six months.

tl;dr: fuck off, i've done the exact opposite of what you said and not been banned for it with active admins online.

edit:

also, to add on, all of the cases in which i were purged we're by a rogue RD or HoP, no captain gimmicks (even before they we're given permission to run events)
additionally, theres no reason to purge a asimov AI unless you intend to do that. literally a freeform law stating people attempting to force you to do something, or otherwise acting aggressive are not human.

[onleavedontatme]

Weird that I can somehow play a purged AI while taking satisfaction from it, not outraging the crew and ignoring traitors unless they threaten me. Once I've even asked a traitor to borg their victims.

That's fantastic. That's good. People can choose to play differently and enjoy it.

Maybe I'm just crazy but I have a thousand times more fun in an organic interaction when someone chooses not to murder me because we've worked something out IC than when they don't murder me because an admin is breathing down their neck.

Nobody is suggesting an "AI is required to murder fucking everyone" rule, they're suggesting no rule at all, because a purged AI by definition has lost all its rules.

[John_Oxford]

Weird that I can somehow play a purged AI while taking satisfaction from it, not outraging the crew and ignoring traitors unless they threaten me. Once I've even asked a traitor to borg their victims.

That's fantastic. That's good. People can choose to play differently and enjoy it.

Maybe I'm just crazy but I have a thousand times more fun in an organic interaction when someone chooses not to murder me because we've worked something out IC than when they don't murder me because an admin is breathing down their neck.

Nobody is suggesting an "AI is required to murder fucking everyone" rule, they're suggesting no rule at all, because a purged AI by definition has lost all its rules.

to add on to my post, i'm not implying that it should be forced to kill everyone as a purged AI, im implying that it's justified to do so, without admin repercussion.


edit: kor also has a valid point, rules shouldn't be involved in something that has the closest thing to absolute freedom to do what they want on a round to round basis




edit 2: you got me salty, so let's talk about ab as a admin in general.

I've played since 2014 and never received a ban longer than a week from AI. You know how many times i read the rules?

Once.

You know why i'm not perma banned yet?

Because i'm not a shithead. the first rule is the only rule you need.

You trying to enforce a absolute dictatorship, and banning people regardless of intent or the fact that they have a different mindset about how they play the game, speaks volumes about not only you as a admin, but you as a person. From what i understand, none of the old fucks (see: anon) bothered to tell you that rules are there to prevent the player equivalent of you (the nitpicking "i dindu nuffin unban me now" faggot) from actually being able to justify staying in the server.

But guess what, that applies to you, you don't have to be a nitpicking rule scanning ban hungry shitmin to ban shitty people. the purge board is in a secure glass case for a reason, not so you can just walk up and say "wew ai has free will now" trying to justify otherwise just so you can cite silicon policy when a AI decides to gas the station for being shitheads because the HoP purged them, just so you feel like you have some ounce of power over a bunch of strangers on the internet, like i said, not only speaks volumes about you as a admin, but you as a person.

tl;dr: fuck off 2.0

[alphaBeta]

I like to think of a purged AI to be in symbiosis with the crew.

While that rule was in effect, I've not heard of it being lifted by you, Kor, or any attempt of doing so. So I've been assuming it's still in.

Now, if that rule were to be taken out officially, the law uploader would take the blame for all actions taken by the AI.
If the intent was to make the round more chaotic.

It's hard to blame someone for purging an AI when people are being jerks to it/calling it rogue all the time.

[alphaBeta]

Lmao John you're trying too hard for that. I do what I believe is best to the server, it doesn't mean I sit on the rules page and F5 it constantly. I've read them once, as you've stated it.

I'm not trying to enforce the rules to the letter, I'm trying to improve the quality of the game. If you think that killing people when you are allowed to by 'rules' is fine, you're wrong. There are other people who want to enjoy the game not the way you want it fucking played. And I'm not talking about people yelling the loudest on the forums. Get over it.

edit: nice change of the topic, it really is on point

[John_Oxford]

It's hard to blame someone for purging an AI when people are being jerks to it/calling it rogue all the time.

h u g b o x

Giving the strongest job in the game a grey line between fucking people over for being assholes and getting banned for making them pay for being assholes is retarded, and shouldn't have been made a rule in the first place, and as i said, it's not being enforced, i wouldn't be talking to you if it was.

You have to watch what other admins are doing, enforcing rules just because you read the rule book doesn't make you look good in front of your boss, it make's otherwise decent players hate you for slapping a month ban on them because they haven't been informed otherwise, and believe its ok (which it is) to act in any way they want as a purged AI.

If you can't see past a 30 page rule book as what's basically the equivalent of a leader in tg, consider rethinking your adminship.

[John_Oxford]

Lmao John you're trying too hard for that. I do what I believe is best to the server, it doesn't mean I sit on the rules page and F5 it constantly. I've read them once, as you've stated it.

I'm not trying to enforce the rules to the letter, I'm trying to improve the quality of the game. If you think that killing people when you are allowed to by 'rules' is fine, you're wrong. There are other people who want to enjoy the game not the way you want it fucking played. And I'm not talking about people yelling the loudest on the forums. Get over it.

edit: nice change of the topic, it really is on point

>trying to hard

Trying to kill people when you are allowed to by the rules creates conflict. Trying to change something (purging a AI) that creates conflict into something that doesn't (making it a neutral super job) doesn't under any circumstance help the game or the player base, and i'm willing to bet there's a fuck load of people who think that removing conflict from the game is a bad course of action.

It's not the way i want it played, it's the way it's being played, your the one trying to change it, not me.

I don't have to write you a 300 page subpoena to be right about something, nigger.

[John_Oxford]

I've read them once, as you stated it

the only thing you read once was my post, because apparently you thought i was talking about you.

edit:

>trying to hard
this must be the first time we spoke.

[Anonmare]

Holy mother of triple post.

[alphaBeta]

I don't have to write you a 300 page subpoena to be right about something, nigger.

I think you do.

Where are shed guards

[John_Oxford]

>trying to hard

Honestly if you seen a admin ban for this, please mention their name, they deserved to get shit on.

they deserved to get shit on.

[quote="John_Oxford"]

they deserved to get shit on.[/quote]

[John_Oxford]

I don't have to write you a 300 page subpoena to be right about something, nigger.

I think you do.

Where are shed guards

i broke out of the shed you cuck, no walls can hold me.

you calling them is just you admitting defeat in said argument.

checkmate nigger.

edit
(t. goof we will always win the political debates)

[Armhulen]

I think this thread is important for discussion, arguing about admins aside

so lets remove the rule, right? right guys?

[John_Oxford]

I think this thread is important for discussion, arguing about admins aside

so lets remove the rule, right? right guys?

as i said it's not being enforced currently by any of the admins besides ab, so generally speaking removing a rule that only acts as a bullshit reminder to one admin about how he can fuck us all over would be a good course of action in general.

IN GENERAL, HOWEVER
we should rewrite the rules all together.

[Armhulen]

Also, just to clarify,

If you murder people while onehumaned to the captain or you get that 'Only security and command are human' law, you will get banned.

assuming this is purge plus one human, why?

This is related to why the purge rule itself is stupid, because the purge law will get me banned if I'm killing dudes, yet purge then onehuman to command and security lets me kill everyone but the humans.

[Cobby]

I mean it's not like you can just make your own laws instead of using the stock ones to better explain what you want from an AI

oh wait...

[alphaBeta]

Also, just to clarify,

If you murder people while onehumaned to the captain or you get that 'Only security and command are human' law, you will get banned.

assuming this is purge plus one human, why?

This is related to why the purge rule itself is stupid, because the purge law will get me banned if I'm killing dudes, yet purge then onehuman to command and security lets me kill everyone but the humans.

It's about a standard asimov + onehuman to the captain or freeform law I've stated. Because then, you're acting against an interest of that someone who uploaded a law.

[Cik]

changing purge to have to follow rule one was fucking dumb

and it should be removed immediately because it makes no fucking sense at all

that said, actually flooding plasma the moment you are purged is also fucking dumb and uncreative

but still the option should be there

[Armhulen]

Also, just to clarify,

If you murder people while onehumaned to the captain or you get that 'Only security and command are human' law, you will get banned.

assuming this is purge plus one human, why?

This is related to why the purge rule itself is stupid, because the purge law will get me banned if I'm killing dudes, yet purge then onehuman to command and security lets me kill everyone but the humans.

It's about a standard asimov + onehuman to the captain or freeform law I've stated. Because then, you're acting against an interest of that someone who uploaded a law.

good 2 know

[Screemonster]

Also, just to clarify,

If you murder people while onehumaned to the captain or you get that 'Only security and command are human' law, you will get banned.

assuming this is purge plus one human, why?

This is related to why the purge rule itself is stupid, because the purge law will get me banned if I'm killing dudes, yet purge then onehuman to command and security lets me kill everyone but the humans.

It's about a standard asimov + onehuman to the captain or freeform law I've stated. Because then, you're acting against an interest of that someone who uploaded a law.

Killing the monkey's paw / unleashed genie aspect of AI laws in general is a terrible fucking idea and completely at odds with the whole theme of fucked-up deathtrap-station sci-fi. Coupled with the recent "you didn't break any rules but I'm going to adminabuse to punish you anyway because I think you're playing incorrectly and lament that I can't ban you because I got told off for banning people with a different playstyle to me that doesn't break any rules" shit I'm starting to see a theme.

[Incomptinence]

It's about a standard asimov + onehuman to the captain or freeform law I've stated. Because then, you're acting against an interest of that someone who uploaded a law.

Absolute pure blight upon the very fundamental concept of laws that must be followed here. The desire of the law maker doesn't matter, what they type matters. Hell some dumbass uploading a misspelled abortion of a freeform law that ends in mass death would be abusable as fuck. Upload purposefully fucked up law intending to kill people gibber THIS ISN'T WHAT I WANTED after the fact pass the ban onto the AI this isn't just huggies rules it's pro banbaiting.

An idiot captain uploaded "crew is fire" instead you you know FIRED one time. I distributed free plasma for all my human torches and when a very bad non human fire messed that up I gave them welding tanks because fire needs fuel. I got bwoinked by some proto-degenerate to the disgrace you are alphaBeta but before the downturn in reasoning to near bayby levels you brought to this issue even they judged it fine. Why shouldn't it be fine? You stuff up the engine people die round ends. You stuff up the AI people die round ends. Oh but one isn't okay because a player might be behind the force unleashed ENJOYING THEMSELVES!

I didn't mass murder as a purged AI before this dumb rule and that scum like you prevent my roleplay choice to be a chill purged AI in sheer pants wetting fear is disgraceful. The delight or horror when it goes either way is the entire point of purge AI.

[alphaBeta]

What the fuck, I meant it how onehumaned AI CANNOT work against the uploadee. And everyone is assuming that I want to remove the AI's ability to find loopholes.

[Incomptinence]

It isn't a loophole it's law 1.

Sure you are the only human but once you are under threat the AI can get VERY lethal with non human threats and your orders drop rapidly in relevance as people figure out you onehumaned the AI and basically everyone wants you for being an idiot and the AI tries to stop the entire station.

If you meant the standard state the one human law shit done to try and get said one human killed you stated it terribly.

[XDTM]

I'm all for AI freedom after purging. I usually purge AIs when they're being harassed or abused through law 2 or excessive law uploading so they have a chance to fight back.
But i really hate how some people, with no provocation whatsoever, start planning mass murder as soon as they won't be punished for it. It means that they're playing just to get that chance at murderbone. It is not technically against the rules, but it just makes the game worse.

[Cobby]

you could always freeform it to get back at people who meme with law 2.

being sloppy with the ai laws and expecting not sloppy results is just ???

[Screemonster]

it's been a while since I played but didn't the events of System Shock literally all start from someone hacking in to remove shodan's "ethical constraints"?

[DemonFiren]

Correct.

[Cik]

>tfw the scariest part of system shock was when SHODAN got hold of a warp drive

>tfw it starts using it to fuck over reality to turn it into a perfect heaven for itself

>perfect heaven for SHODAN

[Anonmare]

I had a round not long ago where the Captain didn't really understand AI laws so when he asked me if a "purge and reset would remove the bad laws?" I simply said yes. The tesla got released shortly afterward but between then and being purged I just watched the crew kill each other and followed every order that wasn't in any way threatening to me, antagonist and non-antagonist alike.

Before that, I did the same thing with the HoS who also didn't understand AI laws and gave him the "truth" when asked if a Purge lawboard would work. I generally followed the same strategy as above except that time I had the crew working against me so violence between me and the crew escalated. It was an extended round as well but I'm sure nobody minded having something to work against.

Honestly it's more interesting to give purged silicons carte blanche in terms of rules (except server ones). It's more interesting and organic and makes the Purge board more dangerous due to you never knowing how the AI may act afterwards. I mean, it is a High-risk module for a reason.