Asimov and corpses

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:00 am #207579

This came up in a recent game, and I wanted to get a clarification on this: do Asimov AIs have any obligations regarding corpses? Recently, I was a non-human under AI laws for experimenting with freon and hacked to death by a mediborg without warning, and a borg started to space my corpse. Laws were changed while the borg was dragging my corpse, and I became human. At this point, is an AI allowed to space a human corpse that can still be cloned? Saegrimr say that AIs can space human corpses if they wish, but I ask because I have seen other silicons get in trouble for doing similar things. From what I've observed it's always been a bit of a gray area.

Edit: Saegrimr gave me a 60 minute ban for this post. I tried to be as vague as possible to avoid any IC issues.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:31 am #207581

Then you shouldn't have posted anything at all.

Also go ahead, post the logs where I told you its okay for a silicon to space corpses. Find them. Good luck.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:32 am #207582

I know what you posted, I'm asking because I've seen cases contrary to what you said, where Silicons have gotten in trouble for what I described. At the very least, handing out an in-game ban for a forum post where I tried to be as broad as possible to avoid any IC issues is kinda shitty.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:34 am #207583

Then why the fuck would you lie and say "Saegrimr say that AIs can space human corpses if they wish"

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:36 am #207584

Because that's literally what you said. I asked if AIs are allowed to space human corpses, and you said "yes." That's the entire issue. I'm arguing that under Asimov AIs should not be allowed to space bodies.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:43 am #207586

Luke Cox wrote:Because that's literally what you said.

No, this is literally what I said, and the only thing that I said.

HELP: NocturnalQuill/(Luke Cox): Also, to clarify, are corpses human? Do AIs have to retrieve corpses if they know where they are? - heard by 0 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
IRC PM: Saegrimr -> NocturnalQuill/(Luke Cox) : Corpses are a non-issue for asimov

Now fuck off.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:44 am #207587

So they can space corpses if they wish? It's not against the rules? Failing to see how I "lied" here. I'm asking for a clarification regarding silicon policy, you don't have to be rude about it.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:51 am #207589

"You said this thing exactly" "No I didn't here's proof" "I didn't lie"

There's no help for you, clearly.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:54 am #207591

Now you're just dodging the question. During this entire thing, I've been asking if it's legal for an asimov AI to space a human's body knowing full well that it could be cloned. You said that this did not violate asimov. Ergo, it is acceptable for asimov AIs to space corpses. Are you disagreeing that asimov AIs are allowed to space human corpses? It's a yes or no question.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:59 am #207592

Because i'm deliberately watching you dig yourself into a deeper and deeper hole where I lose any semblance of sympathy for you.

Also no, they shouldn't be spacing random corpses unless they have a good reason to.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:59 am #207593

inb4 BUT IT HAPPENED TO MEEEE AND HE WASN'T BANNED AND HIS BORG NAME WAS _____ REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE PSEUDO BAN REQUEST

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:02 am #207595

Saegrimr wrote:Because i'm deliberately watching you dig yourself into a deeper and deeper hole where I lose any semblance of sympathy for you.

Also no, they shouldn't be spacing random corpses unless they have a good reason to.

So you're admitting that what the borg did was not in fact permissible, but you decided to let him do it anyways because reasons? I wasn't even asking for a ban, I just wanted my body retrieved and cloned or something.

Screemonster · Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:14 am

There's nothing in asimov about them incinerating all the lizards either. That's how I read "non-issue for asimov".

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:22 am #207604

Screemonster wrote:There's nothing in asimov about them incinerating all the lizards either. That's how I read "non-issue for asimov".

First, lizards are non-human. Second, Saegrimr just admitted that AIs shouldn't be destroyong/spacing corpses without reason regardless.

Screemonster · Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:34 am

"admitted" jesus christ he might not have made the most stellar call in the heat of the moment but you're not onto a winner by trying to turn it into some sort of "look how unjustly wronged I was by the big bad saeg" after copping an hour timeout for ickock. You weren't banned for "asking a question", you were banned for "telling OOC and the forums that your body was spaced by a borg while the round is still ongoing".

Back to the actual question, they're a non-issue for asimov but spacing a body fnr is a dick move under rule 1 whether silicon or otherwise. Maybe just ahelp "asimov borg is spacing my corpse" next time.
Don't ask "hey, in the general case is this thing allowed or not allowed?", TELL them "hey, right now this SPECIFIC thing is actually happening that I'm reasonably certain isn't permitted."
You asked a question and he answered. He wasn't even in-game at the time, how the fuck was he expected to just divine out of the fucking air the reason why you were asking?

"just to clarify blah blah blah" DON'T SAY YOU'RE JUST ASKING TO CLARIFY IF WHAT YOU ACTUALLY WANT IS ACTUAL HELP.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:39 am #207607

Screemonster wrote:"admitted" jesus christ he might not have made the most stellar call in the heat of the moment but you're not onto a winner by trying to turn it into some sort of "look how unjustly wronged I was by the big bad saeg" after copping an hour timeout for ickock. You weren't banned for "asking a question", you were banned for "telling OOC and the forums that your body was spaced by a borg while the round is still ongoing".

Back to the actual question, they're a non-issue for asimov but spacing a body fnr is a dick move under rule 1 whether silicon or otherwise. Maybe just ahelp "asimov borg is spacing my corpse" next time.
Don't ask "hey, in the general case is this thing allowed or not allowed?", TELL them "hey, right now this SPECIFIC thing is actually happening that I'm reasonably certain isn't permitted."
You asked a question and he answered. He wasn't even in-game at the time, how the fuck was he expected to just divine out of the fucking air the reason why you were asking?

"just to clarify blah blah blah" DON'T SAY YOU'RE JUST ASKING TO CLARIFY IF WHAT YOU ACTUALLY WANT IS ACTUAL HELP.

It's the principle of the matter that upsets me. I went out of my way to remain as vague as possible, and I even talked in past tense to avoid any impression that this was an ongoing round. If you can't respond to incidents calmly and reasonably, you shouldn't be an admin.

My initial ahelp was precisely what you described, I was told that nothing against the rules took place.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:43 am #207609

Maybe wait until after the round is over like any sane person would.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:47 am #207611

I will admit that I hadn't checked the window to see if the round was over, but as I've said before, I went out of my way to be as vague as I possibly could just to be safe. If I was naming names or discussing details I would understand the issue, but I did no such thing. It's extremely unlikely that anybody reading this thread would gain any IC insight from it.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:49 am #207612

You sure checked that window to see the IC on the forums ban.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:54 am #207614

I noticed when I pulled the window back up to see if the round was over. I'm not sure what your point is. All I wanted was the note removed from my record.

Also, I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to close ban requests where you're the banning admin.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:58 am #207615

Go see if any other admin gives a shit about your lying.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:04 am #207616

I haven't lied about anything. Based on the fact that you said that asimov doesn't forbid spacing corpses and the fact that you took no action in the round, any reasonable person could come to the conclusion that you said that asimov AIs are allowed to space clonable corpses. You haven't backed up what you're saying with anything other than logs I haven't disputed once and name-calling.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:03 am #207625

Disregarding the above clusterfuck, can I get a definitive answer on this from a third party or two? I want to know for future reference and possibly traitoring.

Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:05 am

Can someone post a tl;dr because what the fuck

Corpses are not human

Post by **Archie700** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:43 am #207640

Tl;dr corpses can't be harmed but spacing them is dickish behaviour UNLESS ordered to by a human

EDIT: In fact the question should be why is a borg spacing a corpse. Was it ordered to? Were you an antag who was caught and killed? Or did it space you fnr?

Another edit: Asking the admin whether a corpse is human is NOT THE SAME as "dude that fucking borg spaced my corpse fnr".

Slignerd · Post by **Slignerd** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:04 pm #207646

So, here's my two cents.

Silicons do have more leeway when it comes to corpses. Doesn't mean they can do whatever, but once humans are dead, they aren't directly protected under Asimov. After all, they are dead. Whatever harm they were to come to, the deed has already been done. There is nothing to prevent now.

However, silicons should not space corpses, unless the person was shown to be harmful in life, or unless the borg was ordered to do so. If a borg went out of its way to grab corpses from cloning and space them, with no reason to do so - something like that definitely wouldn't be acceptable.

That's my take on the matter, at least.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:26 pm #207655

I didn't even read the above.

My thoughts: Corpses are not human. But spacing them falls under rule 1, don't be a dick for no reason and negatively impact someone's round. Unless there's a valid IC reasoning for it, just don't.

Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:20 pm

hahahaha luke cox getting btfo

all hail saeg

lzimann · Post by **lzimann** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:32 pm #207672

This is the same as when we discussed removal of inaction clause, just dont be a dick(by spacing the corpse fnr because lol no asimov protection xD, for example)

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:07 pm #207691

Alright, thanks for the clarification. I was asking because silicons spaced my Saegrimr spaced my human corpse and Saegrimr took no action during the round.

WarbossLincoln · Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:53 pm

this is stupid. why is "Don't be a dick" so hard. It's the same as lizards and asimov. Your laws allow you to kill a lizard but doing it for no reason at all is acting like a dick. It's not complicated.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:07 pm #208288

What a dumb thread.

WarbossLincoln · Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:08 pm

I guess "space themed autism simulator" draws a lot of idiots who like to jerk off at the idea of removing someone from a round.

Slignerd · Post by **Slignerd** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:03 am #208354

Stuff like this is why I often change the laws tbh :^)

TheColdTurtle · Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:30 am

Let's follow through with saeg's plan of banning everyone so this won't happen

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:48 am #208360

Still working on it.

TheColdTurtle · Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:14 am

Good luck

Incomptinence · Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:54 am

Corpses belong in the gibber.