Abductions: Perma and executions after doing nothing

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:59 pm #206047

Its bullshit. I got abducted and after asking for help because the shit ayyylmaos took my id and then I get tased and told im either being put in perma or executed.

You shouldn't get jailed for being abducted until after you fucking do something

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:01 pm #206048

But muh antags.

InsaneHyena · Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:09 pm

Yeah, being perma'd for getting abducted is pretty shit and illogical.

Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:11 pm

Is this a common thing? I've literially never seen it happen myself.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:14 pm #206053

Were i still an admin this would definitely be bwoinkworthy at the very least. Did you ahelp it?

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:25 pm #206058

"I can't make a ban request so I'll make a policy discussion about something that happened once"

Post by **Armhulen** » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:36 pm #206062

Kelenius wrote:"I can't make a ban request so I'll make a policy discussion about something that happened once"

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:46 pm #206068

TribeOfBeavers wrote:Is this a common thing? I've literially never seen it happen myself.

Admins said captain was allowed to do it and it was valid

So i thought this should go in policy.

Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:29 am

Who said that, (assuming this actually went as you said) that's silly

John_Oxford · Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:57 am

i'll point out this sounds like something i would do.
i didn't do it though.

from what i understand, abductors grant you antag status by implanting you with shit.
which i mean, if your going to fuck over security because "wew lads im a antag" then you deserve to be in perma.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:53 am #206099

Abductees are partial antags, they don't get free reign to griff outside the scope of their meme objectives

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:54 am #206103

I'm a pretty harsh HoS and I can't figure out why the fuck anyone would do this.

Post by **Archie700** » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:07 am #206124

Either you did stupid shit or it was pure shitcurity.

You aren't supposed to arrest abductees unless they cause trouble.

John_Oxford wrote:i'll point out this sounds like something i would do.
i didn't do it though.

from what i understand, abductors grant you antag status by implanting you with shit.
which i mean, if your going to fuck over security because "wew lads im a antag" then you deserve to be in perma.

The guy didn't fuck over with security though, unless he left out info.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:46 am #206128

Nah i walked up to HoS asked if he could contact the captain because i was abducted and the ayyys stole my id. I get tased by HoS and a sec officer he called for backup against an unarmed guy. Then sec officer asks captain what to do with me. Captain says execution or perma. Admin said it was valid i can't remember their name

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:12 am #206136

I could understand getting locked up in like... Virology or bucklecuffed to a bed in Medbay because "he was abducted he needs medical treatment!" but this sounds like pure shitcurity and valid hunting.

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:14 am #206142

Abductees should be punished based on actions, not lel antag valid he. If the implant is disruptive then remove it and release, no need for executions. This looks like a ban request though. Can we bring those back? That was some of the funniest stuff on the forums.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:09 pm #206226

To be fair. Perma'ing or executing them KINDA makes sense. Since sometimes the Abductee's don't need to do anything to cause mass chaos. Like with them repeatedly spawning slimes, or making a HUGE amount of blood everywhere instantly, to name a few.

WarbossLincoln · Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:49 pm

It's kinda like random scrubs getting a boner by killing a player controlled monkey. Yeh it's technically valid, kinda, but it's still being a dick.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:40 pm #206255

You shouldn't be permaing/executing an abductee for the crime of being abducted, hell they're a victim here. Despite how bad shitcurity gets, I've never had to deal with a murder victim getting executed by security and it shouldn't need explanation as to why you can't execute a kidnap victim.
If the implant is disruptive, force them to get medical treatment to have it removed, security has stun weaponry for a reason. Abductees shouldn't be murdering or attacking peopl 4noraisin since none of their objectives should have anything like that. The closest I can think of that could be considered dangerous is the "Destroy the cloning machine" objective but that's just vandalism. That being said, if the abductee is acting like a proper antag (I.E. Stealing weaponry, attempting to murder someone etc.) then have them dealt with for those crimes.

TL;DR Don't kill abductees without a damn good reason.

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:36 pm

I'm not sure when the last time you looked at the abductee list of objectives is but some of them are straight up harmful or open to interpretation. IE one of them is basically the oxygen is toxic to human laws for AI.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:19 am #206375

Since when crimethink is a thing on this server

TheNightingale · Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:01 pm

Here on tgstation13, we practice what we call 'proactive punishment'. We arrest people before they've committed crimes.

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:08 pm #206395

And kill them before they can be come valid naturally

Post by **Cobby** » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:44 pm #206678

> Don't allow anyone to be cloned.

> The oxygen is killing them all and they don't even know it. Make sure no oxygen is on the station

> Ensure your department prospers over all else. [Kill people not related to your dept]

> Conduct a ritual to summon an elder god [think Narsie if you want to kill]

> You have been enlightened. This knowledge must not escape. Ensure nobody else can become enlightened. [ensure no one escapes]

> Defect from your employer. [viva]

> Climb the corporate ladder all the way to the top! [viva with you at top]

Not to mention with the glands you can spawn slimes, burst into a plasmafire, spawn spiders, and probably a few other lethal funtimes.

An officer is not going to know what side-effect your glands have until it's too late, nor are they going to know your objective, so putting people who are given highly-subjective secondary antag into the perma-slammer doesn't seem too absurd to me. It's no different than any other 'friendly antag' situation, except sometimes ayyducteds actually HAVE 'friendly antag' objectives.

It would also be inconsistent to demand people 'play dumb' ala bay when you are allowed to know the innerworkings of every other primary and secondary antag.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:04 pm #206723

It's shitcurity to perma a traitor who hasn't actually done anything, though. Like for instance if the clown saw the mime with his uplink out, tells security, and security arrests the mime before he can even order anything let alone do anything traitorous. The flipside to "act like an antag, get treated like an antag" is "if they're not acting like an antag you can't automatically jump to the conclusion that they are."

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:58 am #206742

bandit wrote:It's shitcurity to perma a traitor who hasn't actually done anything, though. Like for instance if the clown saw the mime with his uplink out, tells security, and security arrests the mime before he can even order anything let alone do anything traitorous. The flipside to "act like an antag, get treated like an antag" is "if they're not acting like an antag you can't automatically jump to the conclusion that they are."

That's a stupid opinion to hold. especially for an admin.
catching someone early before their inevitable traitorly murderspree is a good thing, and I pat myself on the back when I pull it off, and I fight tooth and nail against fellow officers who try the same retarded idea of being 'sporting'
It just gets you killed, and your sweet armor and weapons being used on the rest of your department. I mean this only by your example alone. I'm not the sort to baton someone to death for trying to trade their uplink for some piece of extraneous tech, and then perma the body. Or slaughtering someone with a badass syndicate baloon to do the same. but catching someone before the damage is done is kinda the dream here. Especially with some nasty dirty money grubbing mime.

also, whole thread is pointless, Never seen such behavior over a non aggressive nonevasive abductee, Probably will continue not to see it, chalk it up to winning the shitty lottery, these things happen, sorry it happened to you, but who knows what the motivation might have been at this point? Maybe the general vibe on station was that all the abductees were running around shitting spitting and punching, and you got lumped in with the rest of them as 'Fuck it, i am tired of these mother fucking snakes on this motherfucking plane.'

Sidon · Post by **Sidon** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:46 am #206750

I let antags go if I catch 'em by accident or early

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:03 am #206759

Sidon wrote:I let antags go if I catch 'em by accident or early

Nice b8 m8.
I'll bite.

in general how has that been working out for you lately?
And by 'let antags go' do you mean with all their lethal shit in tow?
How bout group antags? ever let a cultist go because you happened upon his tome?

Because the few times I've tried to be sporting, I've been very swiftly punished for it.
Can't show weakness to the syndicate threat and such.

Sidon · Post by **Sidon** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:34 am #206767

Having a likeable personality helps! But generally I don't care, chaos is fun an all that

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:45 am #206772

Sidon wrote:Having a likeable personality helps! But generally I don't care, chaos is fun an all that

None of that is an answer and the first part is an insinuation that I'm not likeable.
Welp, You got nothing to back up your claim, so I'ma just assume you're playing pretend.

Have fun with that.

onleavedontatme · Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:15 am

Killing abduction victims before they do anything is stupid. Most of their objectives are things like "steal fruit" or "find a place to lay an egg" they're not even antags.

I didn't read most of this thread, but I'd ban security if I saw them doing this.

TechnoAlchemist · Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:54 am

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:> Don't allow anyone to be cloned.

> The oxygen is killing them all and they don't even know it. Make sure no oxygen is on the station

> Ensure your department prospers over all else. [Kill people not related to your dept]

> Conduct a ritual to summon an elder god [think Narsie if you want to kill]

> You have been enlightened. This knowledge must not escape. Ensure nobody else can become enlightened. [ensure no one escapes]

> Defect from your employer. [viva]

> Climb the corporate ladder all the way to the top! [viva with you at top]

Not to mention with the glands you can spawn slimes, burst into a plasmafire, spawn spiders, and probably a few other lethal funtimes.

An officer is not going to know what side-effect your glands have until it's too late, nor are they going to know your objective, so putting people who are given highly-subjective secondary antag into the perma-slammer doesn't seem too absurd to me. It's no different than any other 'friendly antag' situation, except sometimes ayyducteds actually HAVE 'friendly antag' objectives.

It would also be inconsistent to demand people 'play dumb' ala bay when you are allowed to know the innerworkings of every other primary and secondary antag.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:15 am #206821

TechnoAlchemist wrote:-snip-

Unless you have access to their notes IC-wise, you can't possibly know that person has an objective that is harmful to the station (Oxygen is deadly) or just benign (You must collect all the soap) and you're going to have to tell me why you had a man thrown out the airlock for having an anal probe stuck up his ass. Plus abductees are not true antagonists and have rules as to how they may act.

If you catch a guy draining the O2 in an area rambling about how the air is poisonous then you're not going to find complaints with permaing him for his and everyone's good but it's a very different story if you have a guy executed because they're obsessed with shoes. If they have a gland that's dangerous to people around them or they're abusing it, have them brought to medbay and have it removed - surgery is not that hard.

Also abductees may not go around killing people, I don't have the exact phrase in front of me right now but I'm damn near sure we all agreed a long time ago that abductees may not steal the armoury and go on a violent rampage simply because they think Nanotrasen is run by Lizards.

TechnoAlchemist · Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:18 am

85% of abductions objectives I would say could be twisted to validate an execution worth crime.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:19 am #206823

And I'm saying you can't execute someone for a thought crime.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:43 pm #206847

Anonmare wrote:And I'm saying you can't execute someone for a thought crime.

This. We 1984 now?

Post by **Archie700** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:08 pm #206849

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote: It would also be inconsistent to demand people 'play dumb' ala bay when you are allowed to know the innerworkings of every other primary and secondary antag.

Except you really don't know whether the abductee will drain the station of oxygen or communicate with the dead because all the objectives are so different.

In fact, most of your post bugs me, but this is the main one. I'll probably edit this later.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:18 pm #206850

Archie700 wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote: It would also be inconsistent to demand people 'play dumb' ala bay when you are allowed to know the innerworkings of every other primary and secondary antag.
Except you really don't know whether the abductee will drain the station of oxygen or communicate with the dead because all the objectives are so different.

In fact, most of your post bugs me, but this is the main one. I'll probably edit this later.

Don't know if that AI will flood plasma or open doors for you like a good little doorknob. Better unwrench mix to distro just in case, right?

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:03 pm #206857

ThanatosRa wrote:I could understand getting locked up in like... Virology or bucklecuffed to a bed in Medbay because "he was abducted he needs medical treatment!" but this sounds like pure shitcurity and valid hunting.

Throw them in xenobio containment so your mad scientists can do their own anal probing.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:22 pm #206880

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote: > Ensure your department prospers over all else. [Kill people not related to your dept]
> Conduct a ritual to summon an elder god [think Narsie if you want to kill]
> Defect from your employer. [viva]

Uh, no?? The first one just says "Be the best department", taking that and making the leap to "SO IF I KILL EVERYONE THEN MY DEPARTMENT WILL BE THE BEST!" is just willful stupidity. Same with all the others.
Doing a ritual doesn't mean blood sacrifice,
Defecting by grabbing a spacesuit and running to lavaland is just as legit.

TechnoAlchemist wrote:85% of abductions objectives I would say could be twisted to validate an execution worth crime.

If abduction victim players are playing the "Haha I'm an AI, I'm going to interpret my laws in the loosest way possible to allow myself maximum freedom to kill and fuck over people" game, then that's what needs to stop. Wanting to steal all the soap on the station doesn't mean you can kill everyone because WHAT IF THEY HAVE SOAP IN THEIR BACKPACK??? They are explicitly not full antags with free reign to murder whoever.

This needs to get nipped in the bud, because this is the first step to sec vs abductee escalation. If this becomes the norm, Sec will start executing abductees on the spot. Abductee players will then in the future make it their first priority to kill Security so that they are not killed when caught. And then Sec wants to kill them even more and wow now you've got an endless cycle of destruction with players just being as much of a dick as possible to each other which completely sucks any enjoyment from the game

fuck

Post by **Cobby** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:31 pm #206902

The abductor objectives are highly subjective to player interpretation. Why I personally wouldn't see them as "TEE HEE MURDERBONE TIME", I think that [as seen with non-canon ai laws], if you give someone something to interpret they'll choose the shittiest interpretation nearly everytime.

Not to mention that doesn't stop the fact that the glands will murderbone for you even if the player won't.

Having to deal with the risk of 1) The Player Killing everyone and/or 2) The Gland itself killing everyone, just seems like that's a lot of mess security would have to clean up. At the very least Sec should be able to detain you, implant you up, and take out the gland [if that's possible, never seen it done]

I don't think there's a nice way to work with "you know this man's an antag of some sort, BUT DON'T KILL HIM because he may have NICE antag objectives" with our current player mentality.

Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:00 pm

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:...take out the gland [if that's possible, never seen it done]

Its possible. The gland replaces the person's heart, so you need to get a replacement heart from a dead body or a humanized monkey before you remove it.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:06 pm #206911

If someone's trying to twist a really innocent abduction objective into "lmao murderbone" feel free to step in and tell them to cut that shit out, we have precedent for abductees being heavily gimped antags, and I'll be damned if we just sit back and say "well our players are too dumb/malicious to engage in light hearted fruit robbing from the kitchen instead of mass murder"

Screemonster · Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:29 pm

Saegrimr wrote:Don't know if that AI will flood plasma or open doors for you like a good little doorknob. Better unwrench mix to distro just in case, right?

Saeg is correct.

"This person might have a dangerous objective, better perma them just in case. Especially after they came to us for help rather than trying to conceal it, clearly that demonstrates that they can't be trusted."

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Malkevin wrote: Throw them in xenobio containment so your mad scientists can do their own anal probing.

I like this one.

Incomptinence · Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:33 am

Objectives can be dangerous, glands can be dangerous. Seems fair to me to deal with the potential threat.

However I think this is mostly due to an oversight. Can we have the abductees get their gear stripped and stored ala tele gulag until they are sent back? Like the are naked on the ship, I mean the abductors would need another approach to stealing access maybe the access on any IDs stored is scanned to database IDs or something which they wear.

Sending stripped gimped pseudo antags to the station was always a shaky concept they are just too obvious.