Make gangs great again

[InsaneHyena]

Not so long ago, gangs were EVERYONE's favourite game mode. What happened? How do we fix it? In my opinion, gangs have following flaws (that can be corrected with following changes). They all concern the dominators.

1) First, the limited nature of the dominators encourages gang to take it's sweet ass time to drop one of them. And it's understandable - from a gameplay perspective, it's always better to eliminate the very possibility of a loss. Why take risks, when you can roflstomp the opposition, convert/kill everyone on the station, and only drop the dominator when there's nobody on the entire station who can destroy it? This can be partially fixed by making dominators unlimited - or, if you're worried about gangheads stalling the shuttle forever, giving every gang, like, five dominators.
2) Secondly, partially because of the point above, we don't see much battles for the dominators anymore. And it sucks, because they should take place all the time, and it should be flashy. My proposed fix - if the dominator drops, no other gang can use their dominator. They MUST storm the enemy gang's stronghold, even if their influence is larger. Also, double the influence gain to the gang when their dominator is active - this way, they can gear up with uzis to defend the dom.
3) Security usually gets killed/converted very early in the round, unless Mekhi is playing the HoS and sec goes full Hitler, forcefully implanting everyone. Fix - if the round lasts long enough, NanoTrasen automatically sends in progressively more powerful ERT teams at the fixed points of time.

[TankNut]

One suggestion I've always had was to allow the gang 'heads' to identify enemy gang members (Enemy gang heads showing as a normal member, to help with disguises). That way they'll be less likely to stab the wrong guy and end up being lynched by the guy's 5 friends who were just around the corner.

[Tornadium]

The reason no one goes for the dominators anymore is because a good gang will position it somewhere behind countless R-Walls and disposal bins, lube the entrances and have a mech to block.

[Zilenan91]

I had one a while ago. Make dominators unlimited, but also act as a mobile store for your gang. If it's dropped, every gangster you have is told where it is. The dominator accumulates gang points over time that your gang can use, so say it gets like 15 a minute, after a while your gangsters can go to your base, buy stuff, and continue the turf war. It'd make gang based around bases rather than boss hunting while also making it more action-packed due to most gangsters being armed.

[Actionb]

Not even two months ago: Making Gang Great Again?!

[oranges]

Not so long ago gangs were new and therefore exciting

[onleavedontatme]

Not so long ago gangs were new and therefore exciting

This.

Also according to our stats page gang only has 50% winrate, which means a large number of these gang v gang v gang rounds instead fizzle out into security just inplanting everyone.

[Incomptinence]

The idea of gang alone of all rounds operating on a plane beyond security was always pretty goofy.

Besides security isn't wrecking gang, the mode was never terribly original and the concept was fatally flawed.

DA does a better job of cutting sec out of the equation and sec still dunks double agents.
A conversion/station domination mode just can't stay outside security notice: conversion means more idiots generating evidence, the gang tags bloody scream at sec THE GANGS BE HERE, the sec team needs to hold the station or die trying and the gang members don't always need to kill security (some sec teams are fucking stupid) will just do so because the mode is similar to rev that the reflex is hard wired plus hey you can it's fun.

The best option for antag vs antag is probably duelling teams of sneak ops or some shit so security doesn't notice. Second is operating somewhat outside their jurisdiction so you can have some breathing room, abductors could have been tooled for this teleporting from ships in another z level is perfect. Worst is to not be a threat to security or the station at all basically no stakes.

Any sort of convert and rule the station antag is destined to fight security, for all itss flaws at least cult vs cult didn't start off with a bombastic half assed sentiment them there reds hirts shouldn't be here backed up by a half assed implant nerf and nothing else.

[Steelpoint]

Remove gang.

I never liked the prevalence of conversion based game modes, rev and cult were fine and even they were relativity uncommon to deal with.

Gang v Gang v Sec almost always devolves into either Security getting wind 2.1231212 seconds after round start and proceeding to implant the entire station, or far more likely one gang has a competent head and procedes to out recruit the other gang and win the game in a shit fest that makes you want to smash your head on your monitor.

[Amelius]

FYI, the preferences changed from 'vastly preferred' to 'vastly hate' after they made mass-gang conversions more difficult by increasing the cost of loyalty implants and scaling pen cooldowns to the size of the gang, making the gang presence far more difficult, meaning flukegangs happens all the time and security has a focal presence in the mode, instead of being another, harder, more expensive conversion target that acts as an earlygame balancing factor.

If you reverted it to that and it's back to it's pseudo-tacticool TDM roots, then people would like it again. Sure, it's not balanced for sec, but sec really doesn't need to be the balancing factor in every goddamn mode.

No one ever puts down an early dom because of the limited stock and severely limited defensive gear unless you have engineering or sec.

> Security usually gets killed/converted very early in the round

Flat-out false in my own experience unless things changed within the past few months. They always, and I mean always mass-implant everyone if there's a Captain or HoS, usually to good effect. The reason why it takes so fucking long for a gang to build enough rapport to do anything is because implant deconversion rates often outstrips anything the gangs can do, and the gangs aren't even allied. Against a vaguely competent and staffed security force, you have to convert people early and keep them with you after the very earlygame, lest they fall to the forceimplanting.

Generally speaking, there are never enough resources to go around. Spreading influence with more pens and implant breakers is almost always better than weaponry, unless you're actively in combat, but there's barely even enough for every gang collectively to compete on-the-level with each other, let alone security. Gangsters rarely get any sort of equipment until it doesn't even matter because of the prohibitive cost.

[Wyzack]

It is tough to judge if gang was better received because >newhype or because conversionspam led to better firefights and stuff, but it is probably worth a test rollback to see if it improves things any.

[InsaneHyena]

I third this opinion, we should rollback and see if the game improves.

[Wyzack]

I have only actually been in gang as a gangster a couple times, and while it is fun storming an inferior enemy gang hold and dropping a fucking legendary beatdown rumble while "X gon give it to ya" is blaring in the background, i cannot imagine it is much fun for the gang that gets shat on. I also suspect that maybe gang was more fun at first because no one had really figured out the best meta strats to win, and that maybe play2win attitude is what killed it. Not much you can do about that one, people will generally always find the most efficient way to win at anything.

[TehSteveo]

As stated by others, gang really was only fun when it came out due to being new. New things will be fun as people look into strategies and tactics for it. Yet now, as soon as tags are spotted security knows what to do and where they should go to combat the gangs. Gang will generally just turns into revolution with guns as one gang will generally take off, the other gangs will either not grow or will fizzle out. Also, I haven't really seen a legitimate round in ages where there was two competent gangs going at it which is fun.

Another problem is most gang rounds just drag on, shuttles get recalled by the gangtool even if the station is just shit and most are dead but one ganghead is still there trying. Other rounds the singularity will be eating the station, then you get that one dominator dropped at the end that takes 600 Byond seconds to countdown in some obscure location with really nobody to respond to it.

[calzilla1]

I still think only gang heads should be able you see their own gang members so they will have to buy gang cloathing or use on station cloathing to identify each other. Gang leaders can see members of other gang members but not gang leaders. Also, maybe curtain cloathing items (bio/EOD suits?) could block pens.

[InsaneHyena]

I still think only gang heads should be able you see their own gang members so they will have to buy gang cloathing or use on station cloathing to identify each other. Gang leaders can see members of other gang members but not gang leaders. Also, maybe curtain cloathing items (bio/EOD suits?) could block pens.

> Cue to gang winrate dropping to 0%

[Gun Hog]

I still think only gang heads should be able you see their own gang members so they will have to buy gang cloathing or use on station cloathing to identify each other. Gang leaders can see members of other gang members but not gang leaders. Also, maybe curtain cloathing items (bio/EOD suits?) could block pens.

The first point about limited visibility and gang heads being able to identify enemy gang members sounds like a good idea in theory, but forcing the gangs to completely forgo stealth is basically asking Security to urinate all over them. All conversion antags must have stealth in the beginning (excluding Rev, which has the potential to spread faster than Sec can respond). If gangs, like the other conversion modes, are caught early, then Security will stamp out their fire as if they were a discarded cigarette. I believe that Gang was at some point meant to be focused on Gang vs Gang warfare, but Security is a "gang" in of itself and are usually the primary threat.

Perhaps if defeating the enemy gang leaders were an objective, it would further lean towards gang on gang warfare as each gang has to fight to defend their leadership. Still, with Security in the picture, this might destroy that idea. Gangs might assassinate other leaders early on, exposing themselves to Sec and giving them the warning they need to start a mass-implant campaign.

Oh, and addressing the final point about the gang pens: This is already true. Thick suits such as space suits will block the gang pen. In a recent round as a Gang leader, I had to strip the hardsuits from the Captain and others before I could recuit them.

[BananaSenor]

The problem is the dominator. It makes the whole thing into another boring baddies vs station mode.

Should have stayed with a gang needing a % of the station under control to win, making it a thing between gangs.

And maybe even a slight roleplay standard, e.g. not having security execute crewmembers for spraying a wall could help.

[Screemonster]

Make killing all the gangheads but one start a short timer before that gang claims victory

sec will be forced to brig gangheads instead of just getting their validboners on unless they're certain of getting them all

[Ikarrus]

Remove the territory control aspect

It's pointless and confusing

[Screemonster]

... come to think of it, security have to get involved right now cause they "lose" if the gangs win.

So. Fix that.

At the end of the round, report which of the gangs wins out of the gangs, but _also_ have a victory/loss condition for uninvolved crewmembers based on something like casualty rate and station integrity and so on - that way, if a gang goes loud, it's in security's interests to stamp them the fuck down before their shit wrecks the station, but otherwise they're really encouraged to keep the peace above and beyond anything else.
In short, security's job is to keep the station secure. If they can take the gangs out bloodlessly then bully for them, but otherwise security's goal is simply to ensure that whatever does happen between the gangs doesn't spill out and trash the rest of the crew.

This may well mean removing the whole dominator aspect and going back to station control.

[InsaneHyena]

Hello yes, this will not work on /tg/. Valids are everything.

[Screemonster]

but

will powergaming validhunters valid valids

if validing valids makes you lose

[DemonFiren]

It's not about winning, it's abuot having fun at the expense of other people.

[PKPenguin321]

One suggestion I've always had was to allow the gang 'heads' to identify enemy gang members (Enemy gang heads showing as a normal member, to help with disguises). That way they'll be less likely to stab the wrong guy and end up being lynched by the guy's 5 friends who were just around the corner.

this is exactly what i came here to say and it was literally the first post after the OP.

gang gets fucked pretty consistently because Gang McHead will pen a guy, and said guy will already be in a gang, at which point Mr McHead is as good as dead. if we fix this i bet the mode will instantly get a lot better

[ShadowDimentio]

Gang is shit because victory is decided the moment the round starts. If you got a good job and no other gang heads are in the department with you, you win. If you start as a job without department access, or worse without maint access, you lose.

[Bombadil]

Gang really is terrible. It's like the old ling rounds when lings would recall shuttle to keep murderboning for objectives

[paprika]

Not sure if anyone has said this yet, but

The reason people loved gangs when it came out is because

1) it's rev with guns
2) it was new

[Zilenan91]

I've been saying Gang has needed updates since March and nobody has attempted to do anything.

[Ikarrus]

The only one who actually worked on it was me and I stopped playing SS13 shortly after I made it

[paprika]

Making gamemodes kills coders

See: hand of god

[MisterPerson]

Making gamemodes kills coders

See: hand of god

Or the multiple people who have tried and given up on datum antags.

[InsaneHyena]

Can anybody briefly explain to me what's so hard about datum antags? Multiple antags can co-exist on the station just fine, if adminspawned, and events can spawn antags too (space ninja, blob, ayys). I know nothing about coding, though.

[Gun Hog]

Can anybody briefly explain to me what's so hard about datum antags? Multiple antags can co-exist on the station just fine, if adminspawned, and events can spawn antags too (space ninja, blob, ayys). I know nothing about coding, though.

In Layman's terms, the code for antags is really, really poorly organized and complicated. When these two aspects mix, you have a hard-to-fix mess. To make Datum Antags, you have to rebuild the core code for every antag and make sure every antag works properly, and on top of that, have to build interaction code for different antag types, so you do not have crazy rounds Rev Blob Wiz Ops all together, and other balance stuff. Believe me, it is a big deal.

[Screemonster]

It's one of those things that would be a lot better and easier if it was built in from the start as a unified thing but with everything being its own mess it's now a complete dog's breakfast to try and sort out.

And whenever anyone tries to work on it, a million other people add a million new changes and probably a new terrible gamemode with a dozen new antags that are in their own thing so it's impossible to keep out of development hell.

[Jacough]

Good start might be to just remove one of the gangs and just have two gangs. Right now it always just boils down to one gang ending up recruiting like 3 members and getting stomped early on.

[ShadowDimentio]

It'd be cool if it were actual gangs, like you get 5 guys and fight another gang with 5 guys instead of you get 15 guys and the other guy gets 3 before getting curbstomped by sec.

[paprika]

Yeah I don't think gang needs conversion at all, I think you should start with a gang of people and have to deal with that instead of bumrushing whatever player has the low ping and is usually pretty robust so he can win the round for you (this is so fucking retarded lmao)

[InsaneHyena]

> play a round of paprikagangs
> Enemy gang consists of Emily Ranger, Pocket, Robustin. Bryce Pax and Tim Ebow.
> Mine includes Loves-the-Lizards, Reed Glover, Mekhi and a random I've never seen before.
> mfw

[DemonFiren]

>bryce pax
Enemy gang is already RIP.

[IcePacks]

hello yes i agree i am shit at gangs