Ratvar, the Clockwork Justiciar

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:11 pm #186429

Bottom post of the previous page:

From what I have observed it needs to be "slimmed down"

Make it so easy a idiot can do it. One of the better things that has happened with "cult of narsie" rounds is that the book now provides everything that a cultist needs.

Work on balance as well.

It looks fine as a good stable foundation to build something great off of.

Think of it as CK 2 vanilla (without the dlc). It was a good game, but it needed a lot of re-work and now that its been reworked a million times its a even better game.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:11 pm #186430

Xhuis wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:I hope that "steel" wasn't talking to me since I actually like the idea of Ratvar as a game mode.

So long as its done well that is...
Nah, I was referring to the trope of "do not steal" among bad OC and pronounced it 'donut steel".

We call that in the business "no stealy wheelies."

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:31 am

Got to play clockcult for the first time today.

The entire mode suffers from the most godawful feature bloat I've ever seen.

I literally used a stunbaton I got more than anything my ANTAG STATUS got me because it's just point and click, not spending ten seconds holding your slab aloft and declaring the glory of clocks and hoping that the target didn't run away or something. I just stunned and cablecuffed and somehow managed to stumble backwards into the clockcult becoming a majority force on the station and eating a ERT in the process.

Look at cult, it's a lean mean machine (ha) with 12 very clearly defined runes that do what you need them to unambiguously. Also, they have a quick, easy, subtle way of stunning/muting people.

ALSO FOR THE FUCKING LOVE OF GOD GIVE DIMINISHING RETURNS ON THE MIND CONTROL THING BECAUSE IT CUCKED ME SOMETHING FIERCE AND THERE WASN'T A THING I COULD DO AND I'M VERY MAD

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:51 am #186737

Clockcult is actually really easy, when you realize that stun glasses are a trap option. You must not use them. Your real stun comes from flashing and guvaxing an engineering borg, and your mute is sending this very borg to sabotage telecoms. In order to be an efficient cultist you need to be a pokemon trainer.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:56 am #186742

Just looking through the (nicely done) wiki page on Ratvar cult slowly starts to rattle my mind as I grasp how many spells and powers and sigils and things the Cultists have to do or use.

I prefer the ideology of Kiss. Keep It Simple Stupid. There's so much going on that it starts to confuse people, I think condensing the spells and whatnot down to the essentials is paramount. Bloat is a bad thing.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:36 pm #186748

My biggest problem with this mode is that admins keep thinking it is awesome cool to spawn ratvar stuff and force ratvar rounds. This will die down as it becomes less shiny and new

I do like the idea of us having more supernatural stuff, but i do wish it was on the whole rarer to make it more special

onleavedontatme · Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:41 pm

Wyzack wrote:My biggest problem with this mode is that admins keep thinking it is awesome cool to spawn ratvar stuff and force ratvar rounds. This will die down as it becomes less shiny and new

I do like the idea of us having more supernatural stuff, but i do wish it was on the whole rarer to make it more special

Yeah, the GRAND FINAL BATTLE BETWEEN GOOD (sort of) AND EVIL happening every time the shuttle docks kind of cheapens it.

But this happens to literally every feature ever, so whatever.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:48 pm #186750

It seems even huge DO NOT ABUSE messages for admins does precisely dick to stop the spam

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:14 pm #186752

You know, after playing quite a few more rounds, I start to think that maybe crag was partially right. When battle of gods happens, Ratvar seems to win WAY more often, even in the Nar'Sie rounds where Ratvar's cult wasn't even on the station. Why?

onleavedontatme · Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:20 pm

Ratvar rolls for victory before Nar-sie does.

Also clockwork reclaimers count as clock cultists, but harvesters don't count as cultists.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:21 pm #186755

Perhaps the God Fight should account for converts BEFORE the god spawns and not after?

Also it seems whenever I've seen a God Fight the round ends before one of them wins.

Hell I did not even know one side could win until recently when I was told.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:37 pm #186757

ShadowDimentio wrote:Got to play clockcult for the first time today.

The entire mode suffers from the most godawful feature bloat I've ever seen.

I literally used a stunbaton I got more than anything my ANTAG STATUS got me because it's just point and click, not spending ten seconds holding your slab aloft and declaring the glory of clocks and hoping that the target didn't run away or something. I just stunned and cablecuffed and somehow managed to stumble backwards into the clockcult becoming a majority force on the station and eating a ERT in the process.

Look at cult, it's a lean mean machine (ha) with 12 very clearly defined runes that do what you need them to unambiguously. Also, they have a quick, easy, subtle way of stunning/muting people.

ALSO FOR THE FUCKING LOVE OF GOD GIVE DIMINISHING RETURNS ON THE MIND CONTROL THING BECAUSE IT CUCKED ME SOMETHING FIERCE AND THERE WASN'T A THING I COULD DO AND I'M VERY MAD

I can understand your concerns, but it seems like you're in the Nar-SIan cult playstyle mindset rather than the Ratvarian cult mindset. All the scripture serves a purpose, and I see most of it used at least once every time the gamemode is run. If the first thing you did is try to stunprod -> convert someone, that's a common mistake; to begin with you should be hiding out and coordinating with your fellow servants to set up a base of operations along with stockpiling all of your components in a tinkerer's cache to allow everyone to use them.

Steelpoint wrote:Just looking through the (nicely done) wiki page on Ratvar cult slowly starts to rattle my mind as I grasp how many spells and powers and sigils and things the Cultists have to do or use.

I prefer the ideology of Kiss. Keep It Simple Stupid. There's so much going on that it starts to confuse people, I think condensing the spells and whatnot down to the essentials is paramount. Bloat is a bad thing.

There was actually a PR that recently got merged that makes scripture names more descriptive. I'll admit that I had this problem when I tried my hand at reworking the original Nar-Sian cult and when I changed it players were much happier with it. Now scriptures have their current names with their functionalities in parentheses (see here for examples). I'm a sucker for story and I'll admit that I let that get in the way of gameplay, and for that I apologize.

Wyzack wrote:My biggest problem with this mode is that admins keep thinking it is awesome cool to spawn ratvar stuff and force ratvar rounds. This will die down as it becomes less shiny and new

I do like the idea of us having more supernatural stuff, but i do wish it was on the whole rarer to make it more special

There's nothing I can do about that. It's natural tendency for people to be curious, and admins want to show off /tg/'s new feature gamemode to everyone. I'm hoping that it'll eventually stopped being forced so much, but I'm afraid I can't guarantee anything. As for supernatural stuff, our design lead would disagree with you there! I'm lucky I got this gamdmode merged at all.

InsaneHyena wrote:You know, after playing quite a few more rounds, I start to think that maybe crag was partially right. When battle of gods happens, Ratvar seems to win WAY more often, even in the Nar'Sie rounds where Ratvar's cult wasn't even on the station. Why?

Coincidence. God success chances are calculated with the same formula, and success it calculated with each hit, with the chance increasing by 1% for each successful hit. Each servant or cultist increases the god's win chance by 2% for each hit. For instance, if neither god had any worshippers, the win chances would go in this order:

Ratvar: 1% base, Nar-Sie: 1% base
Ratvar hits once, 2%
Nar-Sie hits once, 2%
Ratvar hits again, 3%
Nar-Sie hits again: 3%
Ratvar hits again, 4%

And so on until one of them wins. It's true that Ratvar is calculated before Nar-Sie, although the win chances seemed fairly balanced to me in testing.

Kor wrote:Ratvar rolls for victory before Nar-sie does.

Also clockwork reclaimers count as clock cultists, but harvesters don't count as cultists.

If harvesters don't count as cultists, then that's a problem. I specifically balanced god fights around that being a thing.

onleavedontatme · Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:47 pm

They don't count as cultists because it spammed the shit out of the end round report, and caused some confusion as to whether harvesters were supposed to eat cultists or not (they are)

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:48 pm #186760

Kor wrote:They don't count as cultists because it spammed the shit out of the end round report, and caused some confusion as to whether harvesters were supposed to eat cultists or not (they are)

Should be a relatively simple fix to include harvesters in godfight success chances.

Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:21 pm

Xhuis wrote:
Kor wrote:They don't count as cultists because it spammed the shit out of the end round report, and caused some confusion as to whether harvesters were supposed to eat cultists or not (they are)
Should be a relatively simple fix to include harvesters in godfight success chances.

gosh dang it xhuis i specifically mentioned this in this thread before clock cult was even merged and you even responded to my post

PKPenguin321 wrote:3. in nar'sie's case since he gibs his followers, harvesters should increase his damage, but at a much much much smaller rate than full cultists

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:33 pm #186868

I thought that harvesters were cultists at the time aaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:11 am #188642

Holy shit nerf ocular wardens.

We tried to storm the cult base in xenobio. I was in ash drake armor and had the sword. Moment i ran in I went down to 10% health and then when they blasted again i died. You shouldnt be able to stack ocular wardens right next to eachother.

They had 7 or 8 all near the entrance.

Do these things even shoot projectiles?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:02 pm #188818

Bombadil wrote:Holy shit nerf ocular wardens.

We tried to storm the cult base in xenobio. I was in ash drake armor and had the sword. Moment i ran in I went down to 10% health and then when they blasted again i died. You shouldnt be able to stack ocular wardens right next to eachother.

They had 7 or 8 all near the entrance.

Do these things even shoot projectiles?

This sounds like a classic case of "i ded plz nerf" caused by not knowing the mechanics. Ocular wardens deal a small, continuous stream of burn damage while you can see them and while you're within two tiles of them. They are very weak and die after a few hits.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:47 pm #188832

Xhuis wrote:
Bombadil wrote:Holy shit nerf ocular wardens.

We tried to storm the cult base in xenobio. I was in ash drake armor and had the sword. Moment i ran in I went down to 10% health and then when they blasted again i died. You shouldnt be able to stack ocular wardens right next to eachother.

They had 7 or 8 all near the entrance.

Do these things even shoot projectiles?
This sounds like a classic case of "i ded plz nerf" caused by not knowing the mechanics. Ocular wardens deal a small, continuous stream of burn damage while you can see them and while you're within two tiles of them. They are very weak and die after a few hits.

Currently it seems overly complex for someone to fight against a clockwork cult (I didn't know that clockwork cult doors could be broken by hitting them) and there are lots of little things to remember. I have to agree with Steelpoint's argument that clockwork needs to be less complex as it will help people fighting it, as well as people playing it.

IE if people know how to fight it, they will find it more fun and if people know how to play it then it will be more fun.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:08 am #188858

Would you like me to look into the clockwork cult mechanics and recomend nerfs or buffs?

onleavedontatme · Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:19 am

What's the counter for having so many stacked in place that you cant kill them before they kill you though?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:44 am #188864

starmute wrote:Would you like me to look into the clockwork cult mechanics and recomend nerfs or buffs?

Sure.

Kor wrote:What's the counter for having so many stacked in place that you cant kill them before they kill you though?

Wear a blindfold. They can't target you when you can't see.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:57 am #188867

Wardens would be easier to handle if there were more ways to reliably blind yourself in my opinion.

I think there's only about two blindfolds on the entire station. Excluding Nar'Sie ones.

TechnoAlchemist · Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:04 am

haha guys fighting ocular wardens is easy just blind yourself and walk into the enemy stronghold

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:40 am #188870

Driver Scripture

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Clockwork_ ... _Scripture

Belligerent
Works as intended.
Judicial Visor
Nerf. A powerful weapon like that should require more cultists to create. The fact that its a distance weapon is rough.
Vanguard
Remove. Its too complicated and too situational.
Sentinel's Compromise
Change. Very situational and unlikely to happen.
Guvax
Extremely nerf
I just saw a person say "ai stand still law 2" then convert them
Make either a borg show that it is converted or change the way they are converted. It shouldn't be that easy.
Taunting Tirade
Remove
Its currently too strong as is and can disable all the security around them.
Replicant
Working as intended
Tinkerer's Cache
Fine but needs a re-work. Multiple tinkerer's caches makes the cult unstopable in the late game
Wraith Spectacles
Needs a re-work. How about 3 cultists to make and no eye damage
Sigil of Transgression
Working as intended

Script Scripture
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Clockwork_ ... _Scripture

Ocular Warden
Too cheap. You can make a turret for two components. Make it more expensive
Sigil of Submission
Should have to be stacked with sigil of transgression to do stuns.
Aside from that works as intended.
Volt Void
Too powerful. Remove.
Fellowship Armory
Nerf the boots having no slip capablities
Function Call
Nerf. Needs to be more expensive.
Clockwork Proselytizer
Working as intended
Soul Vessel
Working as intended
Soul Vessel
Extremely nerf. Make them much slower or increase the cost a large amount
Spatial Gateway
Nerf. Disallow it going to a servant. It can easily be abused to get people in and out of jail in a jiffy.

Application Scripture
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Clockwork_ ... _Scripture

Tinkerer's Daemon
Buff a bit, maybe make the aspect 4-1
Justicar's Gavel
Remove. This is a nightmare in the making. Its a instant attack that can happen from far away causing brain damage which is annoying as hell
Vitality Matrix
Most people won't use it. I would probably throw it away
Sigil of Accession
Should have to stack with other sigils. Lose the stun.
Anima Fragment
Working as intended
Memory Allocation
NO just no. Remove this. Its way too over powered. Holoparasites that don't take damage. Nope.
Sigil of Transmission
Working as intended
Mending Motor
Working as intended however should heal huminoids less than servants.
Interdiction Lens
Very situational. Should be taken out to simplify things
Mania Motor
Way too overpowered. Remove this.
Clockwork Obelisk
Working as intended

Revenant Scripture
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Clockwork_ ... _Scripture

Frankly ALL Revenant scripture needs to be scrapped. From lightning coming out of peoples arms to massive brain damage getting 10 people in a cult shouldn't cause the station to collapse. They are all really powerful and seem like a massive advantage that can't be countered.

Judgement Scripture
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Clockwork_ ... _Scripture

Increase the amount of servants and DO NOT make it so AIs have to be all enslaved.
So maybe 15 people and ais.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:12 am #188878

Also where the fuck do you even find blindfolds on most maps

And that's not to mention that they can stack 90 of them in a corner and then if you try and blind yourself to go kill them you're just gonna get shit on by the actual cultists that are there.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:51 am #188890

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/18827

Wooo ocular warden nerf

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:21 am #188900

Zilenan91 wrote:Also where the fuck do you even find blindfolds on most maps

And that's not to mention that they can stack 90 of them in a corner and then if you try and blind yourself to go kill them you're just gonna get shit on by the actual cultists that are there.

There's plenty of ways to include blindness outside of that. Try a screwdriver.
Still, point taken...

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:39 am #188942

The counter to ocular wardens is poking your eyes out with a screwdriver

Jesus Christ

Sidon · Post by **Sidon** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:31 am #188973

Wow, I guess most Ratvar feedback has already reached the "remove and destroy everything that makes the mode cool because I'm a boring fuck"

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:16 pm #188997

Nah i like the new balance for sentries

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:56 pm #189008

Borgs starting to twist and morph to a more clockwork form would be thematically really cool and potentially balance the power of a subverted borg somewhat. Maybe give them some buffs from the clock god to balance the lack of stealth

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:06 pm #189022

No. If flash nerf goes through (or did it already?), ratvar cyborgs will suddenly become a much rarer sight.

Post by **oranges** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:59 pm #189121

ratvar cultists should have a tonne of ways to disable a borg with ratvar spells surely?

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:43 pm #189131

Sidon wrote:Wow, I guess most Ratvar feedback has already reached the "remove and destroy everything that makes the mode cool because I'm a boring fuck"

over balancing mechanics?

I mean its a cool gamemode but for fucks sakes it shouldn't require more than a glance at the wiki, and be unbeatable. You don't need to give every antagonist 100 tcs just so they can have fun.

ShadowDimentio · Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:33 am

oranges wrote:ratvar cultists should have a tonne of ways to disable a borg with ratvar spells surely?

Fucking shockingly, I saw none that weren't of the extremely situational/long wind up variety, same as all the other stuns that Ratvar has, which is terrible.

Also arguing that feature bloat is good is like arguing that you'd rather have half a cow served to you rather than a choice steak.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:16 pm #189302

I mean, an entire cooked half of a cow would be pretty awesome. I think you should pick a different analogy. Also i am hungry now

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:37 pm #189313

Anyone up for bell peppers and beef?

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:46 pm #189318

I am actually kind of surprised we have never had a kitchen recipe for that, given that Ian is basically just Ein

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:54 pm #189324

No bell peppers.
Also no beef. Just generic cow meat.
Oh, and no shiitake.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:58 pm #189325

Wyzack wrote:I am actually kind of surprised we have never had a kitchen recipe for that, given that Ian is basically just Ein

Ian was never supposed to be a reference to Ein

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:01 pm #189327

Bombadil wrote:
Wyzack wrote:I am actually kind of surprised we have never had a kitchen recipe for that, given that Ian is basically just Ein
Ian was never supposed to be a reference to Ein

[citation needed]

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:17 pm #189345

DemonFiren wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Wyzack wrote:I am actually kind of surprised we have never had a kitchen recipe for that, given that Ian is basically just Ein
Ian was never supposed to be a reference to Ein
[citation needed]

From what i recall someone just said they decided to add their corgi to the game

Screemonster · Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:31 pm

Wyzack wrote:I mean, an entire cooked half of a cow would be pretty awesome. I think you should pick a different analogy. Also i am hungry now

I now have the flintstones theme stuck in my head.

onleavedontatme · Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:32 pm

DemonFiren wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Wyzack wrote:I am actually kind of surprised we have never had a kitchen recipe for that, given that Ian is basically just Ein
Ian was never supposed to be a reference to Ein
[citation needed]

Erro has/had a dog named Ian.

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:35 pm

ratvar cult is cool but they do everything bloodcult does but better, kind of makes the whole nar'sie vs ratvar thing dumb when ratvar is far stronger

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:09 pm #189419

TechnoAlchemist wrote:ratvar cult is cool but they do everything bloodcult does but better, kind of makes the whole nar'sie vs ratvar thing dumb when ratvar is far stronger

Any specific examples are greatly appreciated. I feel like blood cult is better for stunning people, spying, sabotage, and general subterfuge.

ChangelingRain · Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:23 am

Ratvar cult generally has a harder time of summoning their god than blood cult does, due to having similar if not sometimes more extreme restrictions:

To summon Ratvar, they need 10 human or silicon servants, 3 caches, 100 constructive value, and all active AIs have to be dead or converted and only THEN can they try to summon, which needs 10 of each component, 3 other servants near the person trying to make the gateway, and then to protect the summoned, super fucking obvious constantly-announcing sound-spamming gateway for 5 minutes.

To summon Nar-Sie, they need 9 living cultists and the sacrifice target sacced, at which point they have to draw a rune for 45 seconds, which announces once, and then summon, which can either be literally instant to taking several minutes, depending on how competent the cult is.

Though this doesn't actually refute ratvar cult being stronger(they very probably are at the moment but I'd say that's, at least in part, due to bloodcult being a mess of design issues and bad choices)

ShadowDimentio · Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:33 am

>Playing HoS again
>Running around after shattering bluespace by opening a box
>Recharging gun in engi
>YOU FEEL UNWELL...
>Suddenly massive damage and hallucinations
>Can't escape and keep taking damage
>Die

Motherfucking SECOND TIME I've been /killed. This shit is not okay.

LiamLime · Post by **LiamLime** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:59 am #189614

Kor wrote:Erro has/had a dog named Ian.

I wish! Corgis are amazing. The closest I have is this:

It's however true that I named the corgi Ian while completely unaware of Cowboy Bebop. But whatever, it's my word against the people's and it's the people who write history, not me.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:54 pm #191940

It is currently impossible to convert a cyborg, unless he WANTS to be converted. Flashes stun them only for a few short seconds now (because buffing silicons is what coders are about now), and stun visor doesn't work on them at all.