Public Headmin Discussion

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:27 am #17898

Bottom post of the previous page:

Could we get a summary for those who missed it?

Mandurrrh · Post by **Mandurrrh** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:28 am #17899

Pandarsenic wrote:Thanks for coming, those who did.

I hope you all found it productive and perhaps even enjoyable.

I really enjoyed it. And it was nice getting so many people together to talk about things with everyone staying civil and friendly. I learned a lot from everyone's contributions admins as well as players. Also it was nice meeting some players out of IC. Kind of sheds a whole new light on game play and the people I'm playing with. I hope we do this more often.

Mandurrrh · Post by **Mandurrrh** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:29 am #17900

bandit wrote:Could we get a summary for those who missed it?

There's a recording and I made a paste bin of text logs. I'd post the pastebin but it wouldn't make much sense out of context. People are still on ts by the way if you want to come see what's up.

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:48 am #17903

Please post the recording

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:00 am #17908

My biggest takeaway from this was that Anton, Neerti, and I hold very similar opinions on nearly all the issues raised. The only thing we seemed to disagree on was how much players should be expected to know about policies.

I don't think we'll get as much infighting as the last round of headmins. Everyone is eager to engage in civil discourse to resolve issues.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:45 am #17912

Let's not get too hasty, HG and spacemanspark have a fighting chance in this thing.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:37 am #17932

Everyone who ran is probably running because they saw HBL/Inti and went "I can fix this..."

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:19 am #17958

https://db.tt/QgkC88fX

Link to the recording. It is 1 hour 40 minutes and ended up missing a smaller beginning portion. Sorry for the incoveniance but I belive the overall dicscussion worked out better on ts3 vs other platforms.

We definately got quite a bit done, and were mostly in agreement with each other more or less entirely.

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:46 pm #18009

I have a feeling that fake poll was more or less what we'll end up with. A sign of the ancient /tg/ spirits.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:30 am #18081

Apsis wrote:It honestly just boils down to: "I don't know whats happen I have opinion! meta bad!" and "I hate those Artyom fucks arggh but I wont say it!"

A good sign I've made a valid point is that your only response is to just try to be insulting.

Come on dude what? Have I been hulked? Who talks like that? You make it sound like I'm punching through R-walls while I'm raising these points.

I'm genuinely worried we're going to have a repeat of the last instance if this keeps on. People are aspiring to a title without being fully aware of what the responsibility is.

Have any of the candidates said which headmin role they would actually want to take up? I don't want to be in a position to shake my head and say "told you so" when one of you inevitably gets saddled with Head of Bans and gets burned the fuck out on it because now you're doing work. I only see one candidate in the whole run who has relevant experience shoveling that shit and they haven't said a single word in this thread.

Who among you has taught the most trialmins? Set time aside to be on at hours that are strange to you so you can teach new admins to cover those gaps? Do you think you can be the guy who finally fixes that problem and gives us 24/7 admin coverage? Have you even thought about how you would do that?

I think people are attracted to a title and forgetting that there is a job attached to that. It's that ignorance that cost us two otherwise great admins and I don't think anybody wants to see that again.

Do you really know what you're asking for?

Like, just looking at the ban requests I see threads almost two weeks old with no responses. How does anybody say they can be a headmin when nobody can be assed to handle this basic shit?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:31 am #18082

An0n3 loves artyom too so I don't know why you'd insinuate he's mad at us

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:42 am #18084

Artyom is much more creative and hilarious. I enjoy passively watching the random shit that goes down there more than Sibyl. It has more moments that make me appreciate that this whole shitshow is still up and running. I am much more inclined to give people rideable Corgi Mounts or whatever on Artyom.

Sibyl gives me more nostalgia but at the same time has a freshness to it that I like. It's the game, for the love of the game. Watching babby's first changeling round reminds me of what it was like for me when I had no fucking clue what any of this did and it's special for that.

When it comes to where I am on the (incredibly infrequent) times I'm actually on playing/adminning it's whichever server has fewer admins on it that aren't idle. I don't have a preference between them, I just go where I'm needed most.

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:34 am #18091

ARGHH!!! I WOULD ARGUE BUT WASN'T DIRECTED TO ANYONE IN SPECIFIC!! THOUGH TO ME SEEMED LIKE YOU WERE UNDER INFORMED BUT I DON'T KNOW ANYMORE!!! I DO AGREE WITH THE HEADMIN TITLE RESPONSIBILITY THING!! YES GAME ITSELF FUN BUT FRIENDSHIP NICE TOO!!! THANK YOU FOR TIME!!!

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:43 am #18100

Our previous headmins have set the bar so low I don't think it's possible for new ones to be any worse. As long as they don't hate each others guts, and are actually active enough that people aren't surprised to learn there are actually supposed to be three headmins, I think we'll be alright.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:09 pm #18143

aka as long as they aren't like the previous headcoders they'll be fine.
i couldn't tell the difference between the headcoders and the maintainers for the longest time.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:49 pm #18324

An0n3 wrote:Have any of the candidates said which headmin role they would actually want to take up?

now stop right there
that role shit and division of responsibilities is literally exactly why the last set of headmins was shit
and i know i say literally a lot but i mean fucking literally
they could not work together without stepping on eachothers toes and they both shoved around their fancy titles and responsibilities as a way to end disagreements and it fucking sucked. they acted as if their ONLY responsibilities were the ones given by their titles, and mostly ignored the actual headminning part. deuryn is excluded because he was didnt do much anyway, but at least he wasnt in a petty squabble like hbl and intig.
dealing with ban threads or whatever is EVERY ADMIN'S JOB, including headmins. a headmin should be someone who can put forth a shit ton of effort into adminning, lead people, settle disputes or arguments, make policy, etc. and IMO they should be more like community leaders than the people pulling all the strings from behind. they should be active and friendly so everyone knows who they are.
the last 3 headmins didnt really have those qualities. intig did make policy, and hbl did settle disputes sometimes (though more through executive decisions than mediating) but IMO a good headmin should have all of those qualities. deuryn is a cool guy and im sure he's a great admin, but he is just never active enough. most of the current candidates, or at least the ones im rooting for, are very active.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:37 pm #18330

Can we just get this over with already?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:55 pm #18334

up to scaredy and the admins

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:11 pm #18339

mrpain wrote:Can we just get this over with already?

I don't think we're getting over anything

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:41 pm #18346

Speaking as someone who knows what they're talking, miggles has no idea what they are talking about.

It was a lot more than that

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:46 pm #18347

Please tell us lowly player peasants what it was then?

Post by **oranges** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:12 pm #18351

Brotemis wrote:Speaking as someone who knows what they're talking, miggles has no idea what they are talking about.

It was a lot more than that

Speaking as someone who wants to shut down dissenting ideas, brotemis has no idea what they are talking about.

It was a lot more than that.

I don't to provide proof because I run singulo and hence know everything

Xerux · Post by **Xerux** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:50 pm #18352

Antonkr wrote:https://db.tt/QgkC88fX

Link to the recording. It is 1 hour 40 minutes and ended up missing a smaller beginning portion. Sorry for the incoveniance but I belive the overall dicscussion worked out better on ts3 vs other platforms.

We definately got quite a bit done, and were mostly in agreement with each other more or less entirely.

I've converted this to a ~25mb .mp3, it's available here. (If you'd like this removed or want to throw it up on your dropbox instead, let me know either here, on irc or by PM.)

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:51 am #18359

Considering that a large amount of complaints against HBL was about their events, how they singlehandedly got remote access taken away from headmins, and how HBL was literally all drama because they couldn't handle the position, very little of it had to do with them being Head of Bans except their assignment of Elyina as deputy.

Which was fucking stupid. If you don't want the job, step down. Don't try to give someone headmin powers when they aren't one.

But hey, I'm just an elitist authoriarian admin who abused his mod powers and hates artyom because he has no friends. What do I know?

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:13 am #18376

If you don't assign specific jobs to the headmins what's the point of having headmins?
If you don't give people those jobs nothing will get done.

Say what you will about the last three headmins, but remember that the three headmins before them, when there were no responsibilities expected of them, did even less.

Saying all jobs should be handled by all three is just asking for people to shirk duties, or pass the buck on to deputies.

Like I said people want to point to the last three headmins as a complete disaster but they were objectively a step-up from the previous administration. At least they tried to be here and tried to do things.

Another way to look at it is:

What do you want to do as a headmin that you can't do as, say, a game master?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:06 am #18401

head of bans is stupid, at least when hbl or intig did it

TheTerbs · Post by **TheTerbs** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:28 am #18405

paprika wrote:head of bans is stupid, at least when hbl or intig did it

It's always been retarded

It's a position that will only be filled by assholes

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:43 am #18415

terbsadmincomplaintthread.avi

Shittalking aside it's a necessary position and things improved drastically when it was first implemented.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:25 am #18594

I think a "deputy head" responsibility is worse than an actual head responsibility, too much potential for problems.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:30 am #18595

mrpain wrote:I think a "deputy head" responsibility is worse than an actual head responsibility, too much potential for problems.

^

If the three headmins are going to divide areas of responsibility amongst themselves, why not formalize that and split Headmin into Head of Bans, Head of Events, Head of Staff(?). We could argue the merits of each candidate within their chosen area, and a clear and formal division of responsibilities, authorities and jurisdictions would probably go a fair way towards reducing the toe-stepping.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:35 am #18598

Psyentific wrote:
mrpain wrote:I think a "deputy head" responsibility is worse than an actual head responsibility, too much potential for problems.
^

If the three headmins are going to divide areas of responsibility amongst themselves, why not formalize that and split Headmin into Head of Bans, Head of Events, Head of Staff(?). We could argue the merits of each candidate within their chosen area, and a clear and formal division of responsibilities, authorities and jurisdictions would probably go a fair way towards reducing the toe-stepping.

I agree with that.

And then we could add, say, a "clause for over-rulement". Lets say if Headmin A doesnt like something Headmin B does, then Headmin A and C can vote to overrule it.

Just an idea.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:59 am #18611

They can just circlejerk and when they plan on overturning a ban just be like 'hey guys i'm overturning this ban because x' and there isn't enough bans to warrant not doing this. At least letting the other headmins see when they cut in on a ban would be nice so there isn't 'I WASN'T AWARE HE WAS DOING THIS' from the other two headmins. They should all be on the same page on what each other are doing no matter what their 'role' is because it encourages TEAMWORK and OPPOSING OPINIONS! that can be constructive towards things like this. Being all "i'm in charge of x so i don't need their advice or input on it" is super gay.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:28 am #18638

If each Headmin has absolute authority within his jurisdiction, he's open to all the pratfalls of absolute power. If each headmin can be overruled by other senior administrators, you open it up to politicking, manipulating, maneuvering, and all those other icky things that happen when you put two people together.

Dunno about you, but I'd rather have the latter than the former.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:11 am #18654

Head of Events sounds stupid.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:15 am #18656

Then don't vote for people you think are corruptible.

Why would you be voting for someone for headmin when you think they would abuse authority in the first place?

Thankfully we don't have any precedent for that. Unless I missed something major I don't think there's any evidence of headmins just shitting on everyone with their authority that way.

If you think it's going to be a problem all of a sudden I think it reflects more on the crop of people running for the position than it does the system we have in place.

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:59 am #18685

There's still the issue of not knowing whether or not a public vote will even take place and if it will mean anything.

TheTerbs · Post by **TheTerbs** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:01 am #18686

Pandarsenic wrote:Head of Events sounds stupid.

Unless it's me

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:09 am #18688

Pandarsenic wrote:Head of Events sounds stupid.

Your mom sounds stupid

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:16 am #18691

It really is stupid.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:51 am #18702

do you guys want me to pick the headmins so we can just have them already

Post by **MisterPerson** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:29 am #18705

"headmin" is really a bunch of different positions in one, and people are focusing on the wrong ones. The most important, I'd say, is making sure the other admins are doing what they're supposed to be doing and that everything that's supposed to be done gets done. It doesn't really matter who handles the bans as long as someone competent does it. It doesn't matter much which trialmins are hired or who trains them as long as someone competent actually is screening, hiring, and training them. See what I mean? It's perfectly ok for a headmin to pass off those responsibilities to someone else as long as the tasks are done. Unless the headmin passes them off to someone shitty, then there's a serious problem. But I couldn't vote for any of the candidates based on that, so a vote is kind of pointless.

An0n3 wrote:Then don't vote for people you think are corruptible.

Why would you be voting for someone for headmin when you think they would abuse authority in the first place?

Thankfully we don't have any precedent for that. Unless I missed something major I don't think there's any evidence of headmins just shitting on everyone with their authority that way.

If you think it's going to be a problem all of a sudden I think it reflects more on the crop of people running for the position than it does the system we have in place.

Fucking this. What's the concern exactly, that someone is going to steal the server and start banning everyone for funsies? Possible, but that kind of situation is both easily reversible and extremely rare. The realistic absolute worst case scenario: Headmins get picked who turn out to be assholes and are ineffective. Solution: A formalized system to replace the headmins somehow. Ideally make it hard to do except in egregious circumstances so people don't threaten to remove headmin a simply because they dislike them or disagree with them on something (see Obama vs Republicans for why).

Bluespace wrote:do you guys want me to pick the headmins so we can just have them already

Sure, w/e. This is something the admins themselves should really be choosing anyways.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:45 pm #18788

Scaredy probably doesn't have time to read this whole thread so what would be more productive is telling him to do an admin-vote some time in the future like a few weeks from now to give admins who are ded the time to get back in the game if they want to be headmins and actually just immediately headmin whoever wins the vote regardless of shit flinging.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:16 pm #18793

You'll never take our shitflinging.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:45 pm #18805

Cold dead hands works for me

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:27 pm #18813

Headmins are coming for our shitposting! Burn the bus!

callanrockslol · Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:30 pm

Pandarsenic wrote:Head of Events sounds stupid.

Our last headmin was exactly this, good admin, not as good headmin.

Also worth noting that its a popularity contest and nothing else if you make it a public vote, and a Game of Thrones: Bus Edition if it isn't.

The only solution is to make me the headmin.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:57 pm #19345

But game of thrones: bus edition sounds more entertaining and fair than a gay public vote

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:19 pm #19553

admincest?

TBH I agree that it shouldn't be a public vote but then again everyone agrees with that.
What it SHOULD be is more debateable. Maybe a straight democratic vote that only admins can do is best.

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:55 pm #19797

Personally I dont care what the vote type is so long as a CERTAIN SHITMIN isnt promoted to headmin.

Im not going to name names, but CERTAIN SHITMIN rythmes with Schormyhammy and decided to cripple the TGstation codebranch. Thank god for NTstation.

So with that said, I would actually rather have the vote be public. It doenst *REALLY* matter anyways since SoS will handpick the people anyways. I mean, Fuck what the community thinks, right? CDB was voted to be deadminned on his poll, but is still a very faithfull admin to this day!

Hey whats that? CDB was deadminned? Then Secbanned? When the fuck did this happen?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:26 pm #19833

Helios why do you even post anymore

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:27 pm #19834

paprika wrote:Helios why do you even post anymore

this, pretty much. hg's changes were good.