Wizard Combat & Friendly Fire

[iamgoofball]

I recently got banned for accidentally hellfoaming a crewmember in medbay trying to suicide hellfoam the wizard.

The wizard was running Blink(probably x2), Lightning Bolt, Repulse, and Jaunt.

Blink works while stunned and will instantly throw you out of harm's way.
Repulse allows you to disarm and stun everyone on your screen.
Lightning Bolt allows you to electrocute and stun everyone on your screen.
Jaunt allows you to escape any situation.

The wizard also had the entire medbay supplies that he got while, suprise suprise, aoe stun slamming all of medbay so he could waltz off with shit no problem.

Let's go over the standard "kill the antag" methods:
1. Mob Justice: This doesn't work due to the Repulse + Lightning Bolt combo. He can clear a room out then jaunt away.
2. Security: This doesn't work due to Blink + Repulse. He can disarm every officer in the area of their stunners, then jaunt away. If he IS stunned, Blink works while stunned, rendering that null and obsolete.
3. Bombs: This is 1 of the 2 methods that have a chance to work. A wizard can't escape from a 5,10,20 bomb. Unless he's a lich, in which case haha its over you just failed to bomb the wizard, enjoy your ban.
4. Chemical Bombs: This is the other method that has a chance to work. You have to instantly dose him with a ton of chemicals and pray that he doesn't have any Calomel but it'll kill him. If you miss at all anyone in the vicinity dies and you cop a ban.
5. Pray to Space Jesus: Hope to fuck the wizard gets hit by a lag spike or something that allows you to strip him of his clothes and gag him. wait haha no that doesnt work due to blink, fuck me nevermind

Can you see the problem with the two methods to kill a wizard being a "better hope rngesus is on your side otherwise haha enjoy ur ban nerd"?

I'd like to propose that Friendly Fire to take down a wizard isn't nearly as serious, provided you aren't intentionally killing the crewmembers and that you aren't using it as an excuse to maxcap the station.

tl;dr:
allow "welp shit door closed and my grenade didnt go through, rip that guy and myself, fuck wizard got away"
disallow "haha i just maxcapped the south side of the station in case the wizard's there :^)"

[Shaps-cloud]

Stop trying to hellfoam everything

[Saegrimr]

If you use big massive piles of fuckdeath, you're responsible for all the people you get with it. Especially if you fuck it up.

[Wyzack]

Isnt it at least a little shitty that the only way to kill super tryhard wizards is with methods that stand a very good chance of getting you real life banned from the game? As long as the wizard has even a small amount of skill and doesnt make huge blunders it can be literally impossible to beat them without GGNORE methods that can get you banned. I think this is a problem with the wizard game mode more than anything else

[TechnoAlchemist]

load shotgun with lethal shells and bada boop we did it

[Saegrimr]

Isnt it at least a little shitty that the only way to kill super tryhard wizards is with methods that stand a very good chance of getting you real life banned from the game? As long as the wizard has even a small amount of skill and doesnt make huge blunders it can be literally impossible to beat them without GGNORE methods that can get you banned. I think this is a problem with the wizard game mode more than anything else

I see more people fail than succeed with big boomy "GGNORE" methods. Isn't there a stat tracker for this? I'd like to see how many actually get killed by bombing these days.

[ShadowDimentio]

If the wizard is running around with massive amounts of defensive spells rendering nearly immortal, the crew is well within their right to start playingf dangerous to kill him. If you die to hellfoam while trying to fight the wizard, that sucks, but life goes on and sacrifices must be made.

[sirnat]

I did what techno did that round and had a shotgun.

I stunned him with rubber then loaded buckshot but an assistant ran the fuck in front of me taking the full blast that would've killed the wiznerd.

Blink needs a few more seconds to cast, it wouldn't be a major nerf because not alot of wiz's use it, and in every game Blink isn't even that strong lol.

[TheNightingale]

load shotgun with lethal shells and bada boop we did it

You get a shot off for ~60 damage. They use Repulse, then Magic Missile, keeping the room down whilst they pick up your shotgun, shoot you twice with it, then Jaunt into the nearest maint passageway, use a brute pack on themselves, and then look at their shiny new shotgun.

[Jacough]

load shotgun with lethal shells and bada boop we did it

Blink bada boop the wizard just escaped. Wizard just needs some serious rebalancing right now, especially with the lightning/repulse memes.

[Scott]

Wizard doesn't need to be rebalanced, Wizard mode just needs to be rare so you whiny shits don't complain so much about an antagonist meant to attack the station alone being powerful.

Goof, you know better than to do that, deal with it.

[Okand37]

Wizards themselves aren't really supposed to be balanced, take the lich ability for a primary example of this. Yes, they can be difficult to kill, especially as a normal crew member without access to various more conventional weapons. But it is the same kind of rule that has been around for a while; your actions effect others. If a bomb you set off trying to kill an antagonist ends up killing multiple people instead, that is on you.

There are a lot more weapons you can find that aren't as cluster-based that can still be used at a good effectiveness for defeating others, regardless of your job or department.

[ColonicAcid]

Why is anyone getting banned in a wizard round?
This wasn't blatant grief, it was someone trying to deal with a shitty wizard that kept escaping. There are casualties in wizard, and unless it was clear cut grief a wizard round should be as hands free as possible. If you fuck up whilst attempting to kill the Wizard and you murder a nearby bystander tough shit they shouldn't have been standing there or whatever.

[lumipharon]

It's pretty shitty to ban people for unintended friendly fire not entirely within their control (dude getting trapped in a room/running blindly to their death/etc), as a defensively geared wiz IS fucking obnoxious to take down.

Repulse + MM + lightning + jaunt is such a fuckyou wombocombo of never dying.

[MMMiracles]

i remember seeing this when observing. the wizard's plan essentially involved immediately stealing all of medbay's first-aid, jaunting out, then proceeding to run around with blink, repulsing anyone who got near him and chain-lightning people.

the hellfoam came after a good 15-20 minutes of the wizard being a 'literal meme' (their actual name) and essentially denying all past attempts at killing it even remotely.

[onleavedontatme]

I dislike bans like this because I think giant fiery explosions and mass collateral damage are part of the charm of the game.

i remember seeing this when observing. the wizard's plan essentially involved immediately stealing all of medbay's first-aid, jaunting out, then proceeding to run around with blink, repulsing anyone who got near him and chain-lightning people.

the hellfoam came after a good 15-20 minutes of the wizard being a 'literal meme' (their actual name) and essentially denying all past attempts at killing it even remotely.

And also because there is often no other way to kill a wizard.

It's why I unbanned Oldman a dozen times.

[PKPenguin321]

>I dislike bans like this because I think giant fiery explosions and mass collateral damage are part of the charm of the game.

kor why are you so based
you took the words from my mouth

[Zilenan91]

I don't think goof was banned for JUST that, he's been flooding the medbay hallway with hellfoam for days trying to get a good mix.

[iamgoofball]

I don't think goof was banned for JUST that, he's been flooding the medbay hallway with hellfoam for days trying to get a good mix.

nah the mix is fine the problem is i use it as a deadman's switch/throwing into enemy bases but then it's wizard or blob or something and the grenade never makes it to the destination

Or like in this situation where the CMO and I kept swapping tiles and it blew up on me while the wizard escaped

[ShadowDimentio]

Again: Unless it's actually grief then we shouldn't be banning people for this kind of stuff.

[Wyzack]

Our policy surrounding this is horse shit. We do not ban people to inflict vengeance on wrongdoers, we ban people to discourage behavior and make the game better for everyone. Saying something is okay and then banning the person because it did not go precisely as they planned (often for factors outside of thier control) is incredibly disingenuous and dumb. We are not enforcing rules for the sake of rules.

[iamgoofball]

load shotgun with lethal shells and bada boop we did it

Please see section 1 and 2 of the kill an antag list.

Stop trying to hellfoam everything

If you use big massive piles of fuckdeath, you're responsible for all the people you get with it. Especially if you fuck it up.

Please state a method of killing wizards that doesn't involve the 5 listed methods in the OP.

Wizard doesn't need to be rebalanced, Wizard mode just needs to be rare so you whiny shits don't complain so much about an antagonist meant to attack the station alone being powerful.

Goof, you know better than to do that, deal with it.

This isn't about wizard power levels. I'm all for powerful wizards.

However, the crew should not face the risk of a ban if they try to fight back effectively.

Wizards themselves aren't really supposed to be balanced, take the lich ability for a primary example of this. Yes, they can be difficult to kill, especially as a normal crew member without access to various more conventional weapons. But it is the same kind of rule that has been around for a while; your actions effect others. If a bomb you set off trying to kill an antagonist ends up killing multiple people instead, that is on you.

There are a lot more weapons you can find that aren't as cluster-based that can still be used at a good effectiveness for defeating others, regardless of your job or department.

Please state a method of killing wizards that doesn't involve the 5 listed methods in the OP.

[Screemonster]

Our policy surrounding this is horse shit. We do not ban people to inflict vengeance on wrongdoers, we ban people to discourage behavior and make the game better for everyone. Saying something is okay and then banning the person because it did not go precisely as they planned (often for factors outside of thier control) is incredibly disingenuous and dumb. We are not enforcing rules for the sake of rules.

Yeah, it's like... would you ban someone for a dumbass mistake like accidentally canisterbombing themselves in toxins and taking out another scientist? Sure it's a nonantag causing the death of another nonantag with a bomb but a fuckup isn't the same as griefing.

[Saegrimr]

Please state a method of killing wizards that doesn't involve the 5 listed methods in the OP.

Certainly not through bombing half of medbay because lmao lich good job it did nothing.

[oranges]

gibbing the body should end a lich iirc

[TechnoAlchemist]

The five things you listed in the OP are huge generalizations. I could easily just say "The lich will blink away from your hell foam" to make it nonworthy, most methods can work and they have counterplay.

[ColonicAcid]

Lich is just a stupid feature that involves more monotomy than actually outplaying the wizard. Now you have to both kill the shitty wizard whilst he shoots out magic missile every 2 seconds and jaunts away and then play where's the autistic waldo before he respawns and does it again.

Like really cool guys really fun. There are ways to balance wizard that isn't make him an insufferable piece of shit.

[tedward1337]

>not bola-ing the Wizard

That's all on you fam. Just start dishing street justice by making 50+ spears and start throwing them at him.

[iamgoofball]

>not bola-ing the Wizard

That's all on you fam. Just start dishing street justice by making 50+ spears and start throwing them at him.

>bola
>repulse
>blink
>lightning
>jaunt
>remove bolas
>enjoy new weapon

>spears
>please see Section 1, you literally didn't read the OP

[Zilenan91]

You can try IED spears which are a 50/50 on KOing him

[iamgoofball]

You can try IED spears which are a 50/50 on KOing him

>see assistant with spear
>reflexively hit repulse
>blink
>jaunt
>gtfo
or
>get hit with spear
>start spamming blink button
>hit repulse after you blink
>jaunt
>gtfo

[iamgoofball]

also you can accidentally friendly fire to those too

[Cheimon]

I mean, wizards aren't meant to be taken out 1v1, but a knockout from a spear prevents spellcasting and also isn't that deadly if it's not followed up (it's less likely to hit multiple people than a grenade or a TTV, it's less likely to kill them if they're at full health) . It even has a good chance of removing a leg from the wizard, which would take off his sandals and prevent a lot of spellcasting once he woke up.

If you're playing as a wizard with a suitably powerful setup, it's very hard to lose. Everyone knows that. The way to win as a crew is through teamwork, relentless attrition, and sensible gear choices. It's on you if you kill some other people without hurting the wizard, and that's fine, since it sets an unambiguous border on what's acceptable. Nobody wants someone that uses AOE weapons ineffectively all the time and ends up killing the crew more often than they ever hurt the wizard.

[kevinz000]

I was using blink, lightning bolt, teleport, repulse, and jaunt.
I was using blink to evade explosives and foam, and jaunt for bigger blasts. Also, I used lightning bolt + teleport for instant teleport + zap because teleport doesn't reset lightning bolt chargingK
PERSONALLY, if another wizard used it and I was a chemist, I could easily blast them with explosive spears to kill them. That's my opinion on the matter, which is it's a matter of whether the wizard or you have faster reactions and aiming and whether you can get into a line of sight to toss it at the wizard when his blink is on cooldown.
Also, if I see somoene with a spear , bomb, or grenade, as wizard, I'l repulse them to trigger it and jaunt immediately incase it's a big explosion.

[Okand37]

A common spear or a pickaxe to the head could knock them down. A reinforced bola, taser, stun baton or stunprod to stun them for a bit-I am aware they can jaunt out of it, but a stun usually lasts longer than a jaunt, though a blink could make it more difficult to locate them-then try and beat them.

A riot shotgun, combat shotgun or a double barrel loaded with lethals.
The armoury locker generally has at least one lethal gun in it, and even the box of throwing stars and reinforced bolas could do for some effect with a good throw. The armoury itself generally has a large portion of weapons pre-stocked in it, and if it was looted you can always order more weaponry from cargo.

Cyborgs on default module with corresponding laws can easily use their stun baton on some wizards, though it depends on the spells.

Depending on the race of the wizard, a syringe gun with proper toxin mixes could be used to some effect. Scientists, depending on the fortune of mining and neglect of the wizard could en mass weapons, though this is a less seen thing. Xenobiology could use similar methods of using a syringe gun to inject the wizard with various slime chemicals, such as an unstable mutation pill or a black slime mutation. Engineering has a wide variety of tools to make improved weapons, as well as insulated or fire proof gear to defend from a wide sorties of spells. Medical has genetics and virology, which when utilized properly with a bit of rng could easily assist in destroying the wizard.

These are of course, just a few suggestions. There are plenty of more creative things you could do, but a wizard isn't necessarily meant to be destroyed one on one. Sometimes it may-boggling enough-require the teamwork of not a few people.

[ColonicAcid]

and with enough practise i too could blow my own dick so well that only the gods know how it feels.

doesn't mean i'm going to, and it doesn't mean it's easy either.

we can spend days talking about hypothetical metagames on how to defeat a wizard or we could just say "this is a really shitty mode that probably needs an actual look over instead of just attempting to band aid the issue with shitty features like a fucking respawn button."

[Okand37]

The thing with wizards is that they aren't necessarily meant to be fair. Wizards aren't supposed to be your run of the mill antagonist, they aren't supposed to be as easy to deal with as others. They are supposed to be powerful, that is why it is commonly one versus all in this gamemode.

I don't think the problem is with how the gamemode works, but rather players not wishing to go the length to defeat these antagonists types, which leads them to trying to find theoretically easier solutions.

[Wyzack]

I do not have problems with wizards being massive shitters, i just don't think that we should say it is okay to suicide bomb them and then hand out bans when it doesn't work out. In the OP scenario i do not feel like goofball should have been banned.

[ShadowDimentio]

Again: Unless it's actually grief then we shouldn't be banning people for this kind of stuff.

Rules exist to make the game less griefy. If a wizard is running a nigh immortal build and the round hinges on killing him, any means neccicary to kill him should be employed. Grief and nongrief in this case are easy to distiguish. If you're attacking the wizard, it's nongrief. If you're killing a scientist on the other side of the station for no reason, it's grief.

[iamgoofball]

A common spear or a pickaxe to the head could knock them down.

Please see Section 1. No wizard with Repulse will ever let you get in melee range.

A reinforced bola, taser, stun baton or stunprod to stun them for a bit-I am aware they can jaunt out of it, but a stun usually lasts longer than a jaunt, though a blink could make it more difficult to locate them-then try and beat them.

They can just spam blink and repulse until they're up, then jaunt away. See: Section 1

A riot shotgun, combat shotgun or a double barrel loaded with lethals.

The wizard in the OP had every healing medkit from medbay. See section 2 for why this wouldn't work. He would just jaunt away, brute patch up, jaunt in, repulse, and enjoy his shiny new shotgun. You'd have to get him directly into crit with 1 shot.

The armoury locker generally has at least one lethal gun in it, and even the box of throwing stars and reinforced bolas could do for some effect with a good throw. The armoury itself generally has a large portion of weapons pre-stocked in it, and if it was looted you can always order more weaponry from cargo.

Section 2, same as above.

Cyborgs on default module with corresponding laws can easily use their stun baton on some wizards, though it depends on the spells.

Cyborgs would be hit by repulse. Section 1, mob justice doesn't work.

Depending on the race of the wizard, a syringe gun with proper toxin mixes could be used to some effect.

The syringe gun sprites are big and bulky. The wizard is already spamming repulse, and in this case already has all the toxin kits. He'd probably just repulse your syringe gun out of your hands, take it, and shoot you. If he didn't and you hit him and didn't friendly fire a team mate? He'd just jaunt out, pop a few charcoal pills, maybe some calomel if he raided chemistry, and heal up to go back to killing people.

Scientists, depending on the fortune of mining and neglect of the wizard could en mass weapons, though this is a less seen thing.

Because the scientists totally have time to speed run guns, which still also wouldn't work due to section 1 and 2 and Repulse. It would take 30 minutes for this to be accomplished during a wizard round with lavaland and mining being dangerous now. The miners or scientists might even be priority targets, if the wizard is fearing a suicide bomb.

Xenobiology could use similar methods of using a syringe gun to inject the wizard with various slime chemicals, such as an unstable mutation pill or a black slime mutation.

This has the same exact problem as Toxin Syringes, but with an even bigger time investment where half the crew is gonna be dead by the time it's ready.

Engineering has a wide variety of tools to make improved weapons, as well as insulated or fire proof gear to defend from a wide sorties of spells.

Please see section 1, mob justice.
Hardsuits and Gloves are only good against Tesla Bolt shocks. This isn't going to do anything against Lightning Bolt.

Medical has genetics and virology, which when utilized properly with a bit of rng could easily assist in destroying the wizard.

You can't shoot DNA injectors out of syringe guns, and this wouldn't work due to the above mentioned shit about syringe guns.
The logistics of injecting a virus into the wizard that is deadly and doesn't infect the crew is very hard, and would still get you banned because everyone would ahelp "ugh virologist got me sick pls ban "

These are of course, just a few suggestions. There are plenty of more creative things you could do, but a wizard isn't necessarily meant to be destroyed one on one. Sometimes it may-boggling enough-require the teamwork of not a few people.

We tried teamwork. The wizard had 100% Escape and AoE Crowd Control spells. We can't fucking mob justice it.

[Saegrimr]

we can spend days talking about hypothetical metagames on how to defeat a wizard or we could just say "this is a really shitty mode that probably needs an actual look over instead of just attempting to band aid the issue with shitty features like a fucking respawn button."

Yeah i'm really not sure what to think about Lich. Between that and mulligan it seems like bombing and other mass destruction mems are just bad ideas entirely.

Should really just do away with both for normal wizard rotation.

[iamgoofball]

also yeah throw lich into the equation and a lot of those methods aren't even functional

[Okand37]

You seem to have misunderstood a lot of my suggestions, which shows you are not thinking as creatively as you could. However, I never said they were easy, I said these were all ways that one could kill a wizard with less area of effect damage. Just because its hard to kill them with these doesn't mean it is impossible.

[iamgoofball]

Can you stop doing the "think creatively" bullshit? You aren't disproving my points at all.

[lumipharon]

fun fact: if you mute the wiz via mute toxin or perflu, they can't cast spells that require an incantation, which is most of them (blink being a very notable exception however).

[Okand37]

I am stating that the problem was that your chemical had gone off and had injured a multitude, and so I am showing you that there are more alternatives that have less backfire.

[lumipharon]

While there is a magic spewing memester slowly murdering the entire crew, going for the absolutely safest, best method to kill them without collatoral is really, really unreasonable.

That doesn't mean you should be able to blindly suicide bomb them and ass fuck the crew, but a competent wizard means most of the crew is basically fucked, and has no way to readily fight back, so losin a few guys in well meaned attempts to stop the wizard is more than reasonable, really.

[oranges]

besides it's not like they are going to last long anyway, the wizard will be wasting most of them if you don't now.

[peoplearestrange]

If you use big massive piles of fuckdeath, you're responsible for all the people you get with it. Especially if you fuck it up.

Was always an old rule that you can suicide bomb(Hellfoam I guess) the wizard. If you succeed, grats! A winner is you! If you miss. You banned.

Take the risk and miss, deal with it.

[iamgoofball]

If you use big massive piles of fuckdeath, you're responsible for all the people you get with it. Especially if you fuck it up.

Was always an old rule that you can suicide bomb(Hellfoam I guess) the wizard. If you succeed, grats! A winner is you! If you miss. You banned.

Take the risk and miss, deal with it.

Did you even fucking read the thread?