STOP RESISTING

[TheNightingale]

Proposal: resisting lawful arrest as a non-antag is an OOC issue, not just an IC issue.
Why?: Things like this (one of many cases) happen.

Have some examples:
Grey McTide smashes a window into Command EVA and takes the toolbelt. A nearby Security Officer draws their taser and tells them to halt. Grey disarms the Officer, tases them, and runs away with their taser. This is Bad And Wrong.
Dindu Nuffin is relaxing in the bar, when the HoS starts firing lasers at them, hitting them and other bystanders. They run away. This is okay.
Guil Tee starts attacking the Clown in front of the Detective. The Detective shoots them with the .38 and starts to restrain them, but Guil's friend shakes them up and drags them away. When Security goes after the two, they robust the arresting Officers and take their equipment. This is Bad And Wrong for both Guil and his friend.

If you're not an antagonist, resisting a lawful arrest (when you did something illegal, even if it's something minor like smashing up the Bar or having a stunprod) isn't acceptable. You can't fight Security when they try and detain you, and running away is sketchy unless they're clearly not performing the arrest correctly (they're literally shooting you with lasers without trying to tase you first).

If you're an antag, you're free to resist arrest as much as you like (but bear in mind that Security will go after you when you do; so it might be smarter to submit to custody if you don't have any contraband!).

Opinions?

[Lumbermancer]

People resist lawful arrest as non-antags all the time. Most often by simply running away. It's fine, and it's fun too (to put them in cells for 5 minutes for something they would probably get only warned). Otherwise it would be too easy to see who is the real real bad guy.

Not a well thought idea.

If I was HoS in that round with Nathan Ward he would get perma at best after his stunts. Summary execution at worst. For him.

[Steelpoint]

If you want to resist arrest as a non-antagonist then that's your choice.

Just don't be surprised if your sentence of a frisk search in the brig is upped to a five minute stay in a brig cell and the confiscation of half your inventory if you do get caught.

The thing with crimes and punishment is that you need to be caught to be punished. Its up to you to determin if running away and remaining in hiding for likely the rest of the round is worth the few minutes of being searched.

[TheNightingale]

People commit murder all the time too, but that doesn't make it okay. It's fun when you can catch them, but when they steal your taser, or when they run away and you have to spend half the round chasing them (it's more likely than you think), bad things happen.

Antagonists with contraband would run away anyway (they don't want to be caught with that emag); antagonists without contraband would either run away or let themselves be arrested (that last one makes them look less suspicious). And non-antagonists would submit to arrest, but they still might be an antag without contraband on them.

[Lumbermancer]

People commit murder all the time too, but that doesn't make it okay. It's fun when you can catch them, but when they steal your taser, or when they run away and you have to spend half the round chasing them (it's more likely than you think), bad things happen.

"Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose."

If non-antag murders you you should ahelp it after round ends. That's how it always been.

[ExGame]

So lazy sec officers can make a first attempt to arrest somebody and if they run ahelp "Legit?" and then get told its legit so they can validbaron the living crap out of them? Or if not legit then just ignore it untill they see them again accidentally or banned.

Or ahelping theyve ran and when theyre still not banned know that theyre valid? No, thanks.
I bet admins also have other things to do.

[Shaps-cloud]

If non-antag murders you you should ahelp it after round ends. That's how it always been.

Please don't do this, having to look up logs and ask questions about something that happened half an hour ago is awful, if you have to ahelp do it when it's relevant.

When Security goes after the two, they robust the arresting Officers and take their equipment. This is Bad And Wrong for both Guil and his friend

This is already a Bad Thing and gets treated as such, the initial resisting arrest didn't have to evolve into this

[Lumbermancer]

Please don't do this, having to look up logs and ask questions about something that happened half an hour ago is awful, if you have to ahelp do it when it's relevant.s

I know it's awful but that's what you get paid to do.

[CPTANT]

Anyway:

More shit should be dealt with IC, OOC intervention for everything is shit.

[Shaps-cloud]

Please don't do this, having to look up logs and ask questions about something that happened half an hour ago is awful, if you have to ahelp do it when it's relevant.s

I know it's awful but that's what you get paid to do.

But literally what is the point of ahelping something that happened half an hour ago versus just doing it when it happened?

[Lumbermancer]

Because metagaming? What ExGame said.

[Shaps-cloud]

If you think something is ahelpable, ahelp it while it's happening or just after its just happened so admins can actually see what happened and the context going on around it. Let the admins worry about what information we choose to divulge as part of our investigation

That being said resisting arrest is such a small IC thing that rarely has repercussions that last beyond a minute or two (and the incidents where some shitter steals an officers taser and ID and wages war on sec as a nonantag are already covered by other rules), that I see no reason to police it OOC'ly

[imblyings]

look I'm gonna say what I say to sticky when he does nonantag shenanigans

>do it conscientiously
>don't ever fight back actively
>don't be a shit while sec is busy
>if you fight back, you make yourself valid if you're not already and even if you win the fight, admins might still badmin you up- and if you lose the fight and complain, we ban you for banbaiting

i will add that sticky's shenanigans mentioned here aren't for minor things like breaking into EVA, no one gives a fuck about EVA.

[Saegrimr]

I'm reading a whole lot of people who need to git gud

[Malkevin]

This is why SoP is to shoot first, question at brig.

If you don't follow SoP and get robusted for it then yeah, you need to git gud.


And if they do get the best out of you, make sure you make an example out of them.
They disarm you? You harm baton them to red.
They send one of yours to medbay? You send them to the gibber, and turn their meat into faggots. And then you announce that you made them into faggots because they were a faggot in life.

Thats the Spessmens way.

[DemonFiren]

Isn't killing plus preventing cloning for non-lethal attacks against escalation or something?

[Sometinyprick]

yes let's enforce "do nothing but the boring same old job every round or you get fucking banned", the more OOC involvement that happens the less fun this game gets. There is nothing wrong with committing a minor crime and disabling a security officer who comes to arrest you for it, your not allowed to kill him because as a non-antag your not a murderer but you are someone who does not want to go the brig willingly.

Going full fucking greytide is a different matter but stealing say a toolbelt and disarming and bucklecuffing the officer who wants to come brig you for it is not unreasonable.

[ShadowDimentio]

Exceedingly shitty security should be valid by the crew. No I don't know how this would be enforced, I just want sec who have pissed off the crew something fierce to be thrown out an airlock so they'll ideally never touch the job again.

[Saegrimr]

valid

Yeah this wont be abused at all for sure this time.

[Lumbermancer]

Exceedingly shitty security happens less often than you think. 90% of the time whenever you hear someone yelling Shitcurity, they are receiving just punishment for their tiding.

[sirnat]

This thread was made because of last night my resisting arrest as seen as too much.

>HoS tries to arrest me for using the foam toy in front of the bridge to show it off and to also clean a few blood spots.
>He misses taser and shotgun
>Only after shotgun do I sedate him with a non lethal chem stun.

For the rest of the round I resisted arrest non lethally until I got fed up with trying to defuse it with the HOS (Logs show my PDA messages to him and other officers) and finally ahelp to ask for a bit of leeway/permission to go lethal.

Now I didn't go "GONNA KILL EM ALL!" Actually I used 2-3 molotovs, and at one point a officer shot me with buckshot at which I then also sedated him, took the gun ran down the hall and fired the rest of the rounds toward them and ran into maint.
(Actually I think it was rubber shot the hos said he was using that so I'm not sure. )

I was a non-antag during a stealth wiz round and security was trying to take me in multiple times even when they heard about a "Syndicate weapon" it was secretly the wiz. What I really did wasn't so bad, sure if I killed them or ahelped when they killed me like I used to yelling, "WAHH HE KILLED ME WHEN I SECRETLY DESERVED IT"

Look at it this way:
>Cop goes to random guy standing on the street
>Guy is unknowingly to the cop a professional mma fighter
>Cop demands ID and says if he doesn't show he's going to jail
>Man declines then the officer tries to attack him with his taser/Baton
>Fighter knocks the fuck out of the officer calls the cops and they tell him, "You'll be going to jail for that" even after the man attempts to explain
>Fighter runs and hides

No ones going to willingly allow sec to arrest them for no reason. Security are to power hungry as it is when it comes to "HURR DURR HE SLIPPED ME ONE TIME WITH THE CLOWNS BANANNA PEEL GOTTA BRIG EM AND TAKE THEIR SHIT!"

People who resist arrest may also have shit in their inventory they don't want taken like insuls, toolbelts, toys, gateway weapons, derelict items and etc. Security takes this shit and everyone knows it, so why should people have to willingly give their items in?

This reminds me of a round where I went to away mission, gave sec all a healing virus (Was viro) no one else had, bring back a syndi lmg, unload the mag incase it got stolen.
Detective shoots me with .38 steals the lmg and runs into sec
I have all access so I go in shoot the det (Who has the healing virus) with a smg in which stamina knocks him out
Get my lmg back and fuck off to escape shuttle
Entire time on the shuttle he's searching for me to try and get his valids for someone actually not letting him be powerful and steal someone's weapon so he can use in end round.

[Saegrimr]

Exceedingly shitty security happens less often than you think. 90% of the time whenever you hear someone yelling Shitcurity, they are receiving just punishment for their tiding.

And leaving that for the individual player to go "I THINK THIS HIT THE SHITCURITY THRESHOLD RIOT RIOT GREYTIDE LETS GO BOYS!" after baiting them will get old way faster, much less the other greyshits who hear SHITCURITY screams and now think they'll have some sort of justification for it.

[iamgoofball]

whenever I play security I prefer fighting arrest-resisters

it's more fun to chase down a drunk assistant who was pissing on the walls in the bar than chasing down a traitor

to banning resisting

[Malkevin]

snip

You keep saying "for no reason".

But there was a reason, you slipped him.
Sure it was an accident and if you'd said "whoops sorry" and helped him up and he continued to arrest you the HoS would've been a grade A cunt, but instead you decided to resist arrest and then shoot at the hos with a neurotoxin syringe (which probably confused the hos into thinking it was a syndi weapon) and lead everyone on a manhunt.

The detective one is even worse, you fucking gunned him down with an uzi - he isn't going to give a shit or probably be aware that the reason he healed out of crit was because of your virus. Only thing he cares about it is that he took a fucking MACHINEGUN off someone that had no business having one and then got shot in the back by someone that might try to kill someone else.


"Oh woe is me I'm the victim" doesn't fly when you're a powergaming shit that hasn't worked out he keeps bumping into the IC counter balance to powergaming

"Boo hoo they took my toys" Maybe if you don't pop up on their radar you wouldn't get searched?

[sirnat]

snip

You keep saying "for no reason".

But there was a reason, you slipped him.
Sure it was an accident and if you'd said "whoops sorry" and helped him up and he continued to arrest you the HoS would've been a grade A cunt, but instead you decided to resist arrest and then shoot at the hos with a neurotoxin syringe (which probably confused the hos into thinking it was a syndi weapon) and lead everyone on a manhunt.

The detective one is even worse, you fucking gunned him down with an uzi - he isn't going to give a shit or probably be aware that the reason he healed out of crit was because of your virus. Only thing he cares about it is that he took a fucking MACHINEGUN off someone that had no business having one and then got shot in the back by someone that might try to kill someone else.


"Oh woe is me I'm the victim" doesn't fly when you're a powergaming shit that hasn't worked out he keeps bumping into the IC counter balance to powergaming

>Gunned him down with an uzi
Was a c-20 also from the mission

>Should've helped him back up
You do know you can't walk through foam without slipping yourself, right?

>Didn't have business with the gun
Try telling that to anyone who goes to away missions for loot.

[Lumbermancer]

Try telling that to anyone who goes to away missions for loot.

Believe me we do.

[bandit]

This is a bad idea because if it does become an OOC issue, then you can meta that anyone who resists arrest must be an antag.

[TheNightingale]

You can "meta" that anyone with a chameleon projector is an antag too, or that anyone bombing the gravgen is an antag, or that anyone who onehumans the AI is an antag.

If someone resists arrest and you don't think they're an antag, adminhelp; if you do think they're an antag, chase them down.
If someone submits to arrest and they have antag gear, they're probably an antag.
If someone submits to arrest and they're clean, they might still be an antag - a sneaky one who didn't carry around their stash.

[onleavedontatme]

We complain that peoplr do nothing but validhunt but our rules force people into that mold. If you deviate from the script, whether it be for getting in a scuffle or committing the crime of talking to the same player too many rounds in row, someone is going to shout about it until admins come down on them.

[Lumbermancer]

You can "meta" that anyone with a chameleon projector is an antag too, or that anyone bombing the gravgen is an antag, or that anyone who onehumans the AI is an antag.

No need to meta. If you do these things you are in fact an antagonist, and will be dealt with accordingly.

[Sometinyprick]

You can "meta" that anyone with a chameleon projector is an antag too, or that anyone bombing the gravgen is an antag, or that anyone who onehumans the AI is an antag.

If someone resists arrest and you don't think they're an antag, adminhelp; if you do think they're an antag, chase them down.
If someone submits to arrest and they have antag gear, they're probably an antag.
If someone submits to arrest and they're clean, they might still be an antag - a sneaky one who didn't carry around their stash.

How can you not see how awful and boring this would be? Do people really think like this?
Why do you want the game to be like this? it just contributes to making rounds the same boring shit over and over again.

[TheWulfe]

I should note in my FNR that 'resisting arrest' is a minor element. It's the fact the player in question escalated everything from that element into 'I can now wage war and kill officers if I happen to not like an arrest set my own criteria.'

In regard to actual policy.

I don't 'mind' someone, say, running away for no reason or being a little whiny about it, with this serverbase you can semi-expect it. Just expect you probably annoyed the officer and you're getting increased sentencing.

What crosses the line is when they start playing a deliberate malicious little shit in your 'resistance' when you know you have no reason to do so, playing like you're in antag territory just because you're wanted, which can cross into injuring, stealing from, or killing officers.

It's little wonder why people bemoan playing security when everyone on the station treats them as their grief-punching bag because of 'HALP SHITCURITY' memes.

[DemonFiren]

You can "meta" that anyone with a chameleon projector is an antag too, or that anyone bombing the gravgen is an antag, or that anyone who onehumans the AI is an antag.

If someone resists arrest and you don't think they're an antag, adminhelp; if you do think they're an antag, chase them down.
If someone submits to arrest and they have antag gear, they're probably an antag.
If someone submits to arrest and they're clean, they might still be an antag - a sneaky one who didn't carry around their stash.

How can you not see how awful and boring this would be? Do people really think like this?
Why do you want the game to be like this? it just contributes to making rounds the same boring shit over and over again.

This is Nightingale, even more Bay than I am.

[Archie700]

You can "meta" that anyone with a chameleon projector is an antag too, or that anyone bombing the gravgen is an antag, or that anyone who onehumans the AI is an antag.

If someone resists arrest and you don't think they're an antag, adminhelp; if you do think they're an antag, chase them down.
If someone submits to arrest and they have antag gear, they're probably an antag.
If someone submits to arrest and they're clean, they might still be an antag - a sneaky one who didn't carry around their stash.

How can you not see how awful and boring this would be? Do people really think like this?
Why do you want the game to be like this? it just contributes to making rounds the same boring shit over and over again.

This is Nightingale, even more Bay than I am.

I thought Bay was "do not arrest antags until he is actively killing people"

[DemonFiren]

Bay is "be as boring as humanly possible in the name of ARR PEE and avoiding conflict; ahelp anybody who isn't as boring as you are."

[Malkevin]

Fun fact: I may or may not be banned on bay for being a nice ling and eating people that were sleeping in the dorm instead of taking out purple playing the round

[DemonFiren]

Yes, because you took people out of the round without RPing with them.
Exactly the same reason I got daybanned for spacing a changeling on Bay, or month-plus-silicon-banned for putting my upload turrets to lethal when I was rogue and purged.

Anyway, that's kinda besides the point. Where's our point?

[Atlanta-Ned]

Maybe the point is maybe stop being fucking dicks to each other all the time?

[captain sawrge]

op's proposal is very bad
big manhunts are epic for either side and the satisfaction of beating a dirty dumb tider scum to death and hearing that marvelous boink when he decided to bitch and try and make it an ooc issue after you spent an hour chasing him around is easily worth every second of the agonizing chase

[TheNightingale]

op's proposal is very bad
big manhunts are epic for either side and the satisfaction of beating a dirty dumb tider scum to death and hearing that marvelous boink when he decided to bitch and try and make it an ooc issue after you spent an hour chasing him around is easily worth every second of the agonizing chase

That requires finding them. What about those times you don't catch the dirty dumb tider scum, and they just run around continuing to toe the line, but now with their shiny new stunbaton ("it's for self-defence!!")? Allowing this sort of behaviour only rewards the criminals; you don't resist arrest if you think you're going to get caught.

Or the times you do catch them, but while you're doing that, people are breaking into the Armory, bombing Medical, flooding plasma, and shouting about race wars? In circumstances like that, you have to prioritise - and so the line-toers get off scot-free.

[Lumbermancer]

It's all part of the experience.

[ThanatosRa]

You know, when I first saw this thread, I thought it would be about police brutality from security. I was sorely disappointed.

[Shadowlight213]

If we make running from security an ooc issue, then we'll need to also treat every arrest made by security as an ooc issue.
Story of something that happened to me as an example.

Spoiler:

I was grabbing an eva suit out of eva after the captain ran in there for something, so I could fix the deconstructed tcomms. A sec officer came in and told me to get out of eva, I complied and left after grabbing the suit.
On the way out, they accidentally got trapped in the front area of eva and because there was no comms or AI, couldn't leave. I stopped and broke the outer eva window to set them free. After which I was promptly arrested for "breaking into and stealing from eva". Halfway to the brig, there's a level 5 biohazard announcment.
The sec officer still decides to brig me for 5 minutes despite me explaining why I took the suit and that there's a blob out there.

Now under current rules, it was treated as an IC issue. With the proposed change, any attempt to resist this would be considered an ooc issue.
Security would need to lose some of their freedoms to prevent it becoming shitcurity haven.

[Redblaze3000]

Those 1 minute searches you guys mention often leads to half of our inventory being taken as loot by sec(Insulated Glove obtained via coin or maint being taken as "its theft hurrdurr", hard won away mission gear because No fun allowed). Why not run?

[Steelpoint]

People running away from Security should be a IC issue.

Just make sure if you run away you stay hidden, since if you get caught after the fact then you have no right to complain about getting a harsh sentence.

[Takeguru]

I wouldn't be so inclined to run if sec would get their batons out of their asses about things greyshirts can legally obtain

Yes, I have gloves, there are pairs lying around in maint

No give them back you jackbooted asshat

Then I disarm him when he tries to baton me for raising my voice and suddenly I'M the criminal and not the guy who just attempted to hit me with the most lethal type of damage in the game

[Zilenan91]

Something else that peeves me about sec is them brigging me over minor annoyances. Yeah I slipped a guy, but even from a logical standpoint, shoving me in the brig for a minute would be more trouble for them to watch over me rather than just take my spray bottle and let me go.

[Incomptinence]

Something else that peeves me about sec is them brigging me over minor annoyances. Yeah I slipped a guy, but even from a logical standpoint, shoving me in the brig for a minute would be more trouble for them to watch over me rather than just take my spray bottle and let me go.

Sounds like taking your spray bottle would incite a "SEC STOLE MY PRECIOUS" riot well at least that is why I don't confiscate everything troublesome.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Something else that peeves me about sec is them brigging me over minor annoyances. Yeah I slipped a guy, but even from a logical standpoint, shoving me in the brig for a minute would be more trouble for them to watch over me rather than just take my spray bottle and let me go.

Sounds like taking your spray bottle would incite a "SEC STOLE MY PRECIOUS" riot well at least that is why I don't confiscate everything troublesome.

fwiw I've never been on the receiving end of a riot for confiscating annoying shit from people.

[WarbossLincoln]

The golden rule of dealing with security is that how harshly they treat you is directly proportional to how annoying you are. Sec needs to just crack down on shitters really hard, and ignore the small stupid things.

I was playing the warden the other day and I had to deal with officers bringing in tons of people over and over to brig them for 1-2 minutes... That pisses me off. I don't think there should be brig sentences less than 5 minutes. If you do something so insignificant that it only warrants like 2 minutes in the brig then it's a waste of time to haul them in. Tell them to stop. If they don't stop, stun them, search them, take anything stolen they have, and shove them on their way. Pepperspray them or something to get a point across. If they keep doing minor shit over and over again, haul them in and give them like 5-8 minutes for being a pain in the ass. More officers need to give warnings for minor shit, even if that warning is a taser, or if they're really annoying, a single harm baton.