Utter lack of AI

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:07 am #156931

Bottom post of the previous page:

So just because an AI can bolt us into a room we're required to carry around a full set of tools and yellow gloves at all times? Outta here with that.

Incomptinence · Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:31 am

No, not every room is all Rwalls so not everything is gloves gloves gloves anyway. Traitors if they don't spend all their TC have many options and hey since emags are so popular if you emaged into the room anyway the AI is fucked. You should at least have a crowbar I say.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:38 am #156939

It's not even for antags that it's bad. If someone even so much as mentions harm, AIs will stealth bolt you into the room and send their legion of seborgs after you.

Incomptinence · Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:41 am

How much are you beating up on people as an non antag to develop this huge complex over the AI?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:42 am #156941

I primarily play Bartender. Literally every single round, without fail, somebody tries to climb the bar to either robust you or steal all your alcohol so you gotta fight back.

Incomptinence · Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:49 am

So without AI that still happens and you just get to beat up a dude who was probably coming for a fight and not your worthless drinks anyway?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:51 am #156943

What happens with the AI is that the dude picks a fight, cries for the AI, I get arrested by a secborg, and then he strips me and then the AI tosses me in perma because law 1 lol beep boop

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:53 am #156944

you're trolling right

there is no way that's ever happened

if it did you should have ahelped it and the guy would've gotten banned for being a fucking retard

and where was sec

so wait you're telling me your whole argument is that some guy climbs on your table and then the secborgs perma you?? what? i am starting to get genuinely confused here

what the fuck am i reading

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:54 am #156945

I have never seen this happen.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:54 am #156946

Guy didn't get banned, they even had sec toss me on the gulag and admins said it was IC issue.

Also my argument is that AIs are dicks because of how policy tells them to act and how admins punish them.

Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:52 am

Incomptinence wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote: "haha i stealthbolt u in room! nonlethal conflict, this veryt fun yes! haha beep boop no harm"
There is a huge multitude of tools to combat being bolted in a bloody room. That you basically reject applying any tactic and demand nude victory 100% of the time is pretty self serving.

oh okay, i'll be sure to grab insulated gloves and steal a full toolbelt off of some assistant during a random search next time i'm playing sec officer in case the AI is rogue

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:51 am #156962

you could attempt to escape in many ways

ask someone with tools for help
hit a window with your baton
ask a friendly unslaved borg
appeal to the AI's better nature

i mean, security officers aren't really supposed to be able to destroy station infrastructure, it's one of the downsides of choosing that role over another role

it's why taking tools is frowned on as powergaming

Incomptinence · Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:15 am

Officers patrol mainly halls and maint. Halls have a fair bit of glass to bypass around shocked doors and maint is a definite AI weak point. Yeah you probably don't have tools but that means any AI focusing on you is really wasting their own time. If you are a crew working against an AI or say group antag those with tools can smooth things over for others on the way to get tools.

Warden actually has tools so brig isn't that bad either. Sure some rooms are wads of rwalls without even being secure areas like most of science and such but hey being perfect AI fuck pits is a trade off for being such a fortified area.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:41 am #156972

I'm going to make a PR adding all 75 silicon policy rules to Asimov.

Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:06 am

Incomptinence wrote:Officers patrol mainly halls and maint. Halls have a fair bit of glass to bypass around shocked doors and maint is a definite AI weak point. Yeah you probably don't have tools but that means any AI focusing on you is really wasting their own time. If you are a crew working against an AI or say group antag those with tools can smooth things over for others on the way to get tools.

Warden actually has tools so brig isn't that bad either. Sure some rooms are wads of rwalls without even being secure areas like most of science and such but hey being perfect AI fuck pits is a trade off for being such a fortified area.

My point is that a lot of roles don't have the counters to the AI the way you guys seem to think they do. For instance, one time an AI bolted me into virology in a rev round. Being a virologist, I had zero methods of escape. I remained in there despite arguing with the AI and calling for help until the round ended.
Non-lethal """conflict""" is so """fun!"""

Incomptinence · Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:10 am

Virology is the worst room if anyone is gunning for you sure it is bulwark against random chaos but all those Rwalls, one entrance and disposals leading to space basically means you are cornered by default if anyone wants to get you.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:00 am #157019

Incomptinence wrote:Virology is the worst room if anyone is gunning for you sure it is bulwark against random chaos but all those Rwalls, one entrance and disposals leading to space basically means you are cornered by default if anyone wants to get you.

One day, while valids were hunting, viro got healing virus...

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:29 am #157027

Here's what I think about department radios. Keep them all enabled by default. Give the option on the department computers, the one which let you give access to crew members a toggle of "Can AI listen?" Which Borgs and the AI cannot access

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:48 pm #157163

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Incomptinence wrote:Officers patrol mainly halls and maint. Halls have a fair bit of glass to bypass around shocked doors and maint is a definite AI weak point. Yeah you probably don't have tools but that means any AI focusing on you is really wasting their own time. If you are a crew working against an AI or say group antag those with tools can smooth things over for others on the way to get tools.

Warden actually has tools so brig isn't that bad either. Sure some rooms are wads of rwalls without even being secure areas like most of science and such but hey being perfect AI fuck pits is a trade off for being such a fortified area.
My point is that a lot of roles don't have the counters to the AI the way you guys seem to think they do. For instance, one time an AI bolted me into virology in a rev round. Being a virologist, I had zero methods of escape. I remained in there despite arguing with the AI and calling for help until the round ended.
Non-lethal """conflict""" is so """fun!"""

You literally can make space-resistant, healing viruses and have a disposal chute to escape out into space with. I refuse to believe you had no way of escaping

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:23 pm #157178

PKPenguin321 wrote:one time an AI bolted me into virology in a rev round. Being a virologist, I had zero methods of escape. I remained in there despite arguing with the AI and calling for help until the round ended.

1. Unless something stupid has changed, the airlock cycle controls override those bolts
2. That should have been ahelped.

EDIT: Every single argument on this page of the thread is garbage.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:41 pm #157184

silicons are probably my favorite thing about spacemans. they're unique and characteristic.

that said, they do have a lot of problems. the reality is that a lot of the time the ai is an invisible validhunter instead of the neutral entity it is supposed to be. this is a player problem, but the code influences players. i once nerfed ai tracking and cameras to make it easier to escape the all-seeing eye of S4U-TR0N, but it's still a big issue. there are some things that could be done:

1. disable roundstart ai for rounds with less than 25 players. lowpop ai will always be cancer, no matter what changes are made to ai. there is too little going on so the ai has nothing better to do than closely track what everyone is doing.

2. make alternate lawset boards unavailable at roundstart. want to PALADIN the AI? ask RD to make a board. boards like freeform should probably stay.

3. provide more incentive for AIs not to validhunt. i have no idea how we would do this tbh. AI is most interesting as a neutral third party, but keeping it from validhunting is hard.

Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:16 am

Anonmare wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Incomptinence wrote:Officers patrol mainly halls and maint. Halls have a fair bit of glass to bypass around shocked doors and maint is a definite AI weak point. Yeah you probably don't have tools but that means any AI focusing on you is really wasting their own time. If you are a crew working against an AI or say group antag those with tools can smooth things over for others on the way to get tools.

Warden actually has tools so brig isn't that bad either. Sure some rooms are wads of rwalls without even being secure areas like most of science and such but hey being perfect AI fuck pits is a trade off for being such a fortified area.
My point is that a lot of roles don't have the counters to the AI the way you guys seem to think they do. For instance, one time an AI bolted me into virology in a rev round. Being a virologist, I had zero methods of escape. I remained in there despite arguing with the AI and calling for help until the round ended.
Non-lethal """conflict""" is so """fun!"""
You literally can make space-resistant, healing viruses and have a disposal chute to escape out into space with. I refuse to believe you had no way of escaping

you don't think i tried? i was working in there for like maybe twenty minutes to half an hour whilst also calling for help and arguing with the AI, no dice. expecting somebody to make an entire spaceworthy healing virus just to counter the AI locking them into a room is unreasonable and absurd.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:23 am #157238

You cannot incentivise people to not validhunt on this server. The only way is to nerf their capabilities to do so. Making cameras run off of the powernet would fix the issues the AI has, but ultimately only for one mode. It would STILL have all the problems that it already has, and the majority of modes would still be awful because of it.

newfren · Post by **newfren** » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:41 am #157331

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Anonmare wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Incomptinence wrote:Officers patrol mainly halls and maint. Halls have a fair bit of glass to bypass around shocked doors and maint is a definite AI weak point. Yeah you probably don't have tools but that means any AI focusing on you is really wasting their own time. If you are a crew working against an AI or say group antag those with tools can smooth things over for others on the way to get tools.

Warden actually has tools so brig isn't that bad either. Sure some rooms are wads of rwalls without even being secure areas like most of science and such but hey being perfect AI fuck pits is a trade off for being such a fortified area.
My point is that a lot of roles don't have the counters to the AI the way you guys seem to think they do. For instance, one time an AI bolted me into virology in a rev round. Being a virologist, I had zero methods of escape. I remained in there despite arguing with the AI and calling for help until the round ended.
Non-lethal """conflict""" is so """fun!"""
You literally can make space-resistant, healing viruses and have a disposal chute to escape out into space with. I refuse to believe you had no way of escaping
you don't think i tried? i was working in there for like maybe twenty minutes to half an hour whilst also calling for help and arguing with the AI, no dice. expecting somebody to make an entire spaceworthy healing virus just to counter the AI locking them into a room is unreasonable and absurd.

Next time you're stuck in viro you should use the brute/burn patches in the smartfridge plus your internals to make you immune to space instead, then launch yourself out of disposals.

Styptic/Silver sulf are still very balanced if anyone was wondering.

Super Aggro Crag · Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:26 pm

newfren wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Anonmare wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Incomptinence wrote:Officers patrol mainly halls and maint. Halls have a fair bit of glass to bypass around shocked doors and maint is a definite AI weak point. Yeah you probably don't have tools but that means any AI focusing on you is really wasting their own time. If you are a crew working against an AI or say group antag those with tools can smooth things over for others on the way to get tools.

Warden actually has tools so brig isn't that bad either. Sure some rooms are wads of rwalls without even being secure areas like most of science and such but hey being perfect AI fuck pits is a trade off for being such a fortified area.
My point is that a lot of roles don't have the counters to the AI the way you guys seem to think they do. For instance, one time an AI bolted me into virology in a rev round. Being a virologist, I had zero methods of escape. I remained in there despite arguing with the AI and calling for help until the round ended.
Non-lethal """conflict""" is so """fun!"""
You literally can make space-resistant, healing viruses and have a disposal chute to escape out into space with. I refuse to believe you had no way of escaping
you don't think i tried? i was working in there for like maybe twenty minutes to half an hour whilst also calling for help and arguing with the AI, no dice. expecting somebody to make an entire spaceworthy healing virus just to counter the AI locking them into a room is unreasonable and absurd.
Next time you're stuck in viro you should use the brute/burn patches in the smartfridge plus your internals to make you immune to space instead, then launch yourself out of disposals.

Styptic/Silver sulf are still very balanced if anyone was wondering.

dont forget a fire extinguisher so you can steer.

IcePacks · Post by **IcePacks** » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:47 pm #157420

hey, guys

roundstart ai =/= DISABLING THE AI ALTOGETHER, INCLUDING CREATION THEREOF

i hate ais with an ungodly, burning passion and i still think this is a waste of time

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:39 am #157518

Can't make AIs. Admins toggled the config that disabled them COMPLETELY, not jut from round start.

TheWiznard · Post by **TheWiznard** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:05 am #157533

if you want to play as or build ai's join server 1 where ai's aren't disabled

IcePacks · Post by **IcePacks** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:12 pm #157764

Zilenan91 wrote:Can't make AIs. Admins toggled the config that disabled them COMPLETELY, not jut from round start.

that's exactly what i said

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:17 pm #157787

The core problem with the AI is that policy has basically permanently put it aligned with the station. It has nothing to do with AI mechanics themselves, though tracking obviously could use small nerfs, or even the playerbase just being jerks.

Asimov is a non-functional lawset that is forced to be functional by enforcing a station bias on the AI. It really shouldn't be biased towards anyone on the station, it should try to reset the status quo and encourage indirect action, which includes stopping people from distrupting station activity to hunt traitors.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:39 pm #157796

There is also the point that a lawset which allows both inaction and action will always have players shift towards action over time: sitting on your hands is boring, and players aren't going to be motivated to do it once they've experienced it a few times.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:06 am #157806

If actually adhered to, Asimov is incredibly traitor-friendly (murderbone notwithstanding). Enforce asimov, and 99% of the problems are gone.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:14 am #157807

Despite the fact that admin rulings say otherwise, there is nothing in asimov that forbids the AI to validhunt the shit out of people. As long as it doesn't cause harm they don't give a fuck.

>.s beep boop greyshit Mctraitor spotted with an emag in science, please non harmfully valid with all due haste

And while the traitor could message the AI in advance and say 'law 2 never report anything about me or what I'm doing", again, admin rulings have said antags can always be assumed to be dangerous, and even without that, the AI could get a law change and then spill all the beans.

AI can also bolt down nonharmful traitorr, and as above, even if the traitor law 2's them to unbolt, all it takes is one other person giving a countermand to stop that - and the AI doesn't have to immediately obey orders to begin with.

So yes, if the AI player was genuinely passive/didnt take sides, AND the admins didnt say 'lel all antags are law 1 threats, valid post haste', thenwe could get along fine with simply 'enforcing asimov.'

Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:15 am

Boy that sounds like a bunch of policies that need to be rewritten ;^)

Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:23 am

Atlanta-Ned wrote:Boy that sounds like a bunch of policies that need to be rewritten ;^)

>implying we should keep a feature with completely broken policies

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:26 am #157810

Atlanta-Ned wrote:Boy that sounds like a bunch of policies that need to be rewritten ;^)

If ony the people that dictate and enforce policy thought so :^)

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:28 am #157811

Luke Cox wrote:If actually adhered to, Asimov is incredibly traitor-friendly (murderbone notwithstanding). Enforce asimov, and 99% of the problems are gone.

Enforcing asimov would require the AI to effectively genocide, enslave, or rerout all the resources of the human race towards something we collectively do not wish to do.

It is not meant to be even something dangerous, it was meant to be apocalyptically bad AI design, which is why asimov has a bunch of really weird rulings that force you to ignore its underlying problems so that the game functions.

>implying we should keep a feature with completely broken policies

That is such a stupid statement that I hope you are just trolling. By that logic we would not have any command roles, because at one point or another in time their policies were completely broken. Yet it is obviously more beneficial to the game to re-write broken policies and bad mechanics than to remove integral elements of the game. Tracking is vital for security to even begin to attempt to chase overt traitors, and AI's as a doorstop add a lot to the flow of a game that is 9% about access rights, because it allows people to get access to secure locations legally and publicly.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:33 am #157812

lumipharon wrote:Stuff

If somebody is in perma for something other than murder, and they ask the AI to release them, they are forced to comply under law 2. If somebody wants into the captain's quarters to steal something, the AI is forced to comply under law 2. If a traitor is clearly showing traitor items that aren't blatantly lethal, the AI is forced to stay quiet unless asked, and maybe even hide traitors if sec has established that they will execute them. Asimov actively forbids validhunting when actually adhered to.

That said, we need new lawsets and for Asimov to not be the automatic default every round.

Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:40 am

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Atlanta-Ned wrote:Boy that sounds like a bunch of policies that need to be rewritten ;^)
>implying we should keep a feature with completely broken policies

This isn't an either/or proposition. Without an AI, the game feels stale and lifeless. Regardless of what people think, it needs to exist end of story. Policies need to be reviewed, rules need to be enforced and the playerbases' trust in the silicons needs to be rebuilt.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:51 am #157819

Atlanta-Ned wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Atlanta-Ned wrote:Boy that sounds like a bunch of policies that need to be rewritten ;^)
>implying we should keep a feature with completely broken policies
This isn't an either/or proposition. Without an AI, the game feels stale and lifeless. Regardless of what people think, it needs to exist end of story. Policies need to be reviewed, rules need to be enforced and the playerbases' trust in the silicons needs to be rebuilt.

The playerbase hardly trusts the average meatbag, how the fuck are you gonna deal with silicons?

Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:56 am

dezzmont wrote:
>implying we should keep a feature with completely broken policies
That is such a stupid statement that I hope you are just trolling. By that logic we would not have any command roles, because at one point or another in time their policies were completely broken. Yet it is obviously more beneficial to the game to re-write broken policies and bad mechanics than to remove integral elements of the game. Tracking is vital for security to even begin to attempt to chase overt traitors, and AI's as a doorstop add a lot to the flow of a game that is 9% about access rights, because it allows people to get access to secure locations legally and publicly.

not AI-policy tier broken
have you read AI policy? it's longer than our actual rules page

Atlanta-Ned wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Atlanta-Ned wrote:Boy that sounds like a bunch of policies that need to be rewritten ;^)
>implying we should keep a feature with completely broken policies
This isn't an either/or proposition. Without an AI, the game feels stale and lifeless. Regardless of what people think, it needs to exist end of story. Policies need to be reviewed, rules need to be enforced and the playerbases' trust in the silicons needs to be rebuilt.

200% opinion

Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:59 am

Everything in this thread and every other thread about AI is opinion. The entire game is designed and built around opinions. We tried one opinion (removing the AI), now we need to try another (reforming the policies).

Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:54 am

Atlanta-Ned wrote:Everything in this thread and every other thread about AI is opinion. The entire game is designed and built around opinions. We tried one opinion (removing the AI), now we need to try another (reforming the policies).

the difference is you claimed it as fact my friend

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:10 am #157848

Ok well if you're gonna take this thread into arguing about how I'm phrasing statements we're not gonna get anywhere.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:15 am #157885

The point here is that by removing one problem we created a myriad of new problems, which are collectively worse than the original problem in the opinion of about half the playerbase

Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:17 am

Luke Cox wrote:The point here is that by removing one problem we created a myriad of new problems, which are collectively worse than the original problem in the opinion of about half the playerbase

what problems, that you have to use tools to open doors now instead of calling out for the door to be open?

citation needed on the "half the playerbase" part

TheWiznard · Post by **TheWiznard** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:27 am #157889

just kept ai on server 1 and remove it from sybil, problem solved

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:41 am #157895

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:The point here is that by removing one problem we created a myriad of new problems, which are collectively worse than the original problem in the opinion of about half the playerbase
what problems, that you have to use tools to open doors now instead of calling out for the door to be open?

citation needed on the "half the playerbase" part

Doors are one issue, plus the fact that the station feels generally lifeless without a figure keeping everything together

Citation is the fucking poll you're replying to

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:43 am #157896

daily reminder the poll does not represent every single tgstation player

there's a very good chance some of those poll votes are rigged too, phpbb a shit

Shad0vvs · Post by **Shad0vvs** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:47 am #157897

TheWiznard wrote:just kept ai on server 1 and remove it from sybil, problem solved

Yes lets remove features from the arguably 'main' server, good call.

TheWiznard · Post by **TheWiznard** » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:51 am #157899

Shad0vvs wrote:
TheWiznard wrote:just kept ai on server 1 and remove it from sybil, problem solved
Yes lets remove features from the arguably 'main' server, good call.

I'm just saying it so all the people with a problem with the ai are happy. if someone likes ai they could just play on the other server.