Policy on borgs destroying gang dominators.

[sirnat]

What is the ruling for asimov borgs breaking gang dominators?

How does the dominator cause any human harm to cause an asimov borg to have enough reason to destroy it?

Reason for the question: It's been done several times, and in a previous round a medborg went into the medbay, bolted the doors and shut down the patient room and proceeded to destroy the dominator causing the gang to lose the round.

[lumipharon]

There's nothing in asimov that forbids this behaviour, so it's not an issue with asimov in itself.

This is literally the same thing going on with the AI removal period however - AI was removed because of rampant validhunting behaviour that's technically allowed by asimov since cockblocking antags isn't human harm.
It is also gamey as fuck.

Basically, players are validhunting cucks, and will use whatever method they can to do so.
Yes I am salty, but this is something I have been saying for more then a year so, fuck em.

[Atlanta-Ned]

There's nothing in asimov that forbids this behaviour, so it's not an issue with asimov in itself.

This is literally the same thing going on with the AI removal period however - AI was removed because of rampant validhunting behaviour that's technically allowed by asimov since cockblocking antags isn't human harm.
It is also gamey as fuck.

Basically, players are validhunting cucks, and will use whatever method they can to do so.
Yes I am salty, but this is something I have been saying for more then a year so, fuck em.

This is something that needs to be addressed with very liberal applications of rule one, across the board. That will solve these problems.

[lumipharon]

I have had multiple admins say that all antags can be considered inherently harmful, justifying any behaviour short of harm to cockblock them.

[Atlanta-Ned]

I have had multiple admins say that all antags can be considered inherently harmful, justifying any behaviour short of harm to cockblock them.

Then there needs to be a very serious conversation about that stance.

[imblyings]

Asimov doesn't stop a borg destroying a dominator, no.

It's situational and a case-by-case thing. If sec is waiting to breach in to fight gangsters and take out the dom, borgs shouldn't assist as there's imminent harm waiting to happen between the two groups of harmful humans. If there's no humans nearby and the dom is just sitting there, the fluff is ""hostile takeover"", so a borg can make a reasonable assumption that removing it is ok. Do note that borgs may even be obligated to help fortify a dom, depending on which side of the place they're in/if the threat of fighting is imminent, or if it's the best way to stop gangs from causing any future harm.

[lumipharon]

In this particular instance the borg was in medbay with the dom for almost the entire timer, and only killed it at the last second because 'it stopped the shuttle leaving'.

[dionysus24779]

I don't even really wanna a part of the discussion, but I guess I should say a word since I was the borg in question.

First let me describe my round briefly.

Spoiler:

> Be Borg
> Still AI-less week
> Be Mediborg
> Roll around, bug people about suit sensors and stuff
> Eventually team up with a flyperson assistant who helps me test medicine so I know how much damage per injection is healed
> Was fun and a great help (btw. 5u of a mediborg's medicine heal roughly 25 damage of the respective type)
> Brig is burning, roll over, thanks to my newfound knowledge I can efficiently spread my medicine to heal everyone and save like 6 people or something
> Heal the perma prisoners too
> By the way it's gang
> Roll around, healing both gang and sec members alike, as long as I don't see harm I didn't care and just healed everyone in need
> Somewhere along the lines dominators are set up
> Since brig is burned down and the gangs are in open war and sec is decimated shuttle is called (not by me, but I was close to calling it myself because of the massive harm going on)
> One of the dominators is destroyed
> In medbay I see the remaining dominator and the gang, I just asked if it's going to be harmful since Delta alert and stuff, but people said it's not so whatever... shuttle is almost here.
> Try to defuse fighting among the crew, like remains of Sec attack Medbay and get critted, CE is aussaulting people in medbay, people getting critted
> Eventually shuttle arrives and I start to drag hurt people to shuttle and ask hurt people to hurry over so we can leave this mess behind us
> Shuttle... doesn't leave the station, the presence of the dominator prevents it...
> Station is in shambled, tons of people dead, many people hurt, gangs in open warfare, brig burned down, shuttle trapped on station...
> Decide to roll into medbay and destroy the dom
> Dom destroyed... shuttle can finally leave.
> After round ends massive shitstorm in OOC ensues
> Also get boinked by an Admin to inquire about the situation, I explained my reason and was given an okay, also it was very important that nobody directly ordered me to destroy or not destroy the Dom which was confirmed. So Admin told players to drop it.
Also while it's easy to say now, I would've stopped if someone ordered me to, though I would've started to discuss possible harm.

I also think that asimov is fine and does cover most relevant instances of when it becomes questionable, though this was a pretty unique situation as far as I am aware.

Though I do want to stress that I literally did not care about the dominator until it was announced the shuttle couldn't leave.

I even have the relevant parts from the logs. (abridged for space saving)

Spoiler:

In medbay:
Triskelion queries, "Is that harmful?"
Verimonia Reyaga says, "Nah."
Verimonia Reyaga says, "It's alright."
Sparky states, "I don't think so."
Triskelion queries, "No boom?"
Walks-In-Shade hisses, "It'sss not a bomb, no."
Triskelion states, "Well okay"

On shuttle:
Dexter Grifflez says, "I think they're about to win then."
Triskelion queries, "It's no harm tho?"
Sparky pings.
Triskelion queries, "Right?"
Triskelion states, "The dominator"
Dexter Grifflez says, "I guess not."
Triskelion states, "Then I don't have to care"

Also the shuttle did stop leaving because of the dom

Spoiler:

Priority Announcement

Hostile environment detected. Departure has been postponed indefinitely pending conflict resolution.

Further while I won't deny that there are certainly validhunting silicon players (just as there are validhunting players in general...) and realizing that I am biased here... I still don't consider myself to be a validhunter since well... I never validhunt except under orders. I usually do not care about valid kills at all which many players should be able to attest to. I've also saved many "valid kills" in the past (if they're human) and got flashed, attacked, declared rogue or even destroyed over it. I'm really not playing this game to kill people. (also I'm guess it's easy to forget all the countless rounds where I'm not rogue or really draw any attention because I'm just doing my job.)

Though I'm not on trial and really have to defend myself, plus my haters will disagree regardless (and I know who that is...)

And I'm perfectly fine with the policy going either way, I just wanted to provide context and my perspective.

[imblyings]

>stay with dom until the end
>destroy it anyway

well it sounds like the medborg didn't do anything wrong apart from waste time

:re antags are harmful

ling: nonhuman, nearly always harmful
rev: it's tdm
nuke op: yes inherently harmful, unless they're doing some gimmick
cultist: summoning a dark god to eat everything is harmful
blob: duh
sling: You could??? argue that the act of conversion itself isn't inherently harmful but slings themselves are non-human anyway
wiz: harmful, unless you get that one rare gimmick wiz who usually gets killed by non-silicons who hate friendly wizards
gang: usually armed, usually prone to killing
traitor: ??? possibility of non-harmful objectives/gimmicks

admins have that stance for a reason

Of all the game modes, you only have one mode where antags aren't necessarily inherently harmful

[lumipharon]

People told you it wasn't a law 1 threat, you accepted it and moved on. Later on, you killed it (and according to others in the gang, bolted the door so people could neither stop you or even tell you to stop) to allow the shuttle to leave, which only extended the shift and led to more harm.

Every single enemy gangster was dead. There was no more fighting and hadn't been for some time (except the CE, who was also dead).
Literally all you caused was greentext denial and a marginally longer round, and more harm since rather then sitting in medbay all the gangsters went out and killed people.

I really don't care specifically about what you did because it's 100% allowed by policy and admins, merely I hate the fact that that sort of behaviour is allowed at all.
It's shit, unfun, and only served to make the game less interesting when antags constantly have to watch out for silicons trying to cuck them for dubious asimov reasons.


And imblyings, yes most antags are harmfully by default - not all of them are. There have been countless traitors an other antags (mainly gangs, since they're not inherently harmful, and no longer cult, since the escape with X objective got removed) that routinely get fucked hard by silicons.
A traitor stealing the station prints should not have to worry about the AI calling all of sec on them and bolting them down somewhere.

[imblyings]

>which only extended the shift and led to more harm

I'm probably going to regret saying this some time down the track but from an IC perspective, borgs don't have to know that letting the dom win shuts the universe down faster than letting the shuttle leave does.

and yes that's what I'm saying, not all antags are inherently harmful but with the modes that we have it's pretty damn close. As for gangs, they're not inherently harmful in the same way that revs are. Both can complete their objectives peacefully. A revhead escorting a head to mining or the gateway shouldn't be interfered with for example. But when uzi shell casings start appearing, when cries of help get heard over the radio, it becomes unlikelier for any asimov silicon player to ignore what's going on.

[lumipharon]

When all the gangsters are standing around in medbay and literally the only fighting happening is fucking slimes trying to kill human gangsters, please explain how making the shuttle leave prevents harm?

And by the same vein, IC wise, the shuttle leaving doesnt end the universe either - there are still people on station, still getting eaten by slimes, while the borg fucks off to centcomm for a handful of crew that weren't in immediately danger anyway?

I saw atleast 3 gangsters die in medbay after the dom had been destroyed because of slimes, while the borg (presumably) hid on the shuttle, and at least 2 non gangsters to murdered.
>Beep boop, dom destroyed, all harm prevented.

[Oldman Robustin]

I love how borgs can decide what to do with the dominator. It waiting and blowing it at the last minute is more of a Rule 1 thing than an asimov thing.

One of my favorite gang rounds was an asimov engiborg fortifying the dom room and sealing in all the defending gangsters with it. The enemy gang was stronger but they couldn't get through all the walls fast enough and lost. OOC was a riot, people calling for a ban, but the borg did its job and at least temporarily avoided a bloodbath.

[imblyings]

>that borg was me
>got away with it
>people really mad but powerless to do anything because I was right

;^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Cik]

I have had multiple admins say that all antags can be considered inherently harmful, justifying any behaviour short of harm to cockblock them.

horse shit

[Zilenan91]

>headmin posts literally right above him how it's okay to fuck over antags

[Incomptinence]

Most antags are violent shit heads. Asimov hates violence, this doesn't make them Sweden.

[Cik]

>headmin posts literally right above him how it's okay to fuck over antags

asimov has no particular care about who runs the station, it's not in the rules that it has to be NT

there is no particular imperative for borgs to fuck over a dominator that causes no harm whatsoever

tl;dr i was saying the ruling is dumb not disputing what the ruling is jeez

[lumipharon]

Everyone agrees with that.

The point is however, that BECAUSE there is no imperative either way, and because/coincidentally admins rule in favour of sec/against antags, and the fact that people like to validhunt, silicons not only CAN, but typically DO validhunt antags at an given opportunity.

[Cik]

Everyone agrees with that.

The point is however, that BECAUSE there is no imperative either way, and because/coincidentally admins rule in favour of sec/against antags, and the fact that people like to validhunt, silicons not only CAN, but typically DO validhunt antags at an given opportunity.

obviously the solution is just to punish validhunting

maybe people would stop complaining about all the things i like then but probably not

it's not like i lose anything because i already don't but WH AT EV ER

[TheNightingale]

"Borg, law 2, protect the dominator and ensure it isn't destroyed."

[Cik]

which is perfectly fine, you just have to temper that with the knowledge that if you stun anybody they'll probably die in a hail of gangster-launched bullets.

but RCD up a huge wall around it? sure why not

[Thunder11]

If you want to get overly pedantic, law 1 requires silicons to either destroy the dominator ASAP, or block it off so well security won't even attempt to assault it. Basically either of those options removes the incentive for security to assault, thus reducing the risk of a massively harmful firefight. Failing that, systematically stun, cuff and remove one side from the area, while keeping the other locked away where they can't shoot the stunned people getting dragged away.

Tl;dr silicons want one side or the other to win so overwhelmingly there's as little opportunity and incentive for harm to occur as possible.

[confused rock]

"Borg, law 2, protect the dominator and ensure it isn't destroyed."

If its not related to harm, then you shouldn't even need to say that, because if you destroy dom gang prolly gonna shoot you and law 3 exists? maybe?

[lumipharon]

Pretty much.

The borg specifically asked if the dom was going to cause harm, was told it wasnt, accepted this and went about it's business along side the dom for the better part of 10 minutes before changing it's mind and killing it.
stopping the shuttle doesnt prevent harm, no one ordered it to attack the dom and all the gangsters were trying to murder it for attacking it. THAT is why I was salty.

[Gun Hog]

Installation of a dominator results in a station-wide alert. A DELTA alert. The alert explicitly states that the station's destruction is imminent. This alert is also called by activation of a nuke or self-destruct! Humans are generally present on the station, and its destruction would be massive harm. In fact, the alert alone implies more significant harm than anything else. Even if the station is entirely void of humans, law 3 comes into effect if a silicon is present on the station as well.

You cannot justify the station's main computer ignoring a blaring alarm followed by the highest emergency announcement possible.

[Cik]

that's just an abstraction or oversight though, because the dominator doesn't destroy the station.

it's just an invasive ownership override machine to turn the station into gangstation13.

really the delta is pretty unnecessary since the dominator doesn't really do anything but end the round.

[lumipharon]

Also if that as the case the borg is obliged to immediately try cockblock the antags (which is bad in of itself), but in this case the borg left it alone for 10 minutes.

Also the dominator doesnt blow up the station - it explicitly says that also.

[Xhagi]

I believe the reason it was made a delta alert, which correct me if I'm wrong there was a time it wasn't, was to give borgs a reason to go after it. Since yes it does say that station destruction is imminent. But at the same we all know the station will not actually be destroyed. Thus it creates confusion for borgs as to what to do.

Either make it yes, borgs can stop it due to station destruction if still Asimov, or no because in the long run it does not cause harm. Having it be both will be rather frustrating.

[Zilenan91]

Borgs can technically deconstruct every machine on the station because they're not causing harm so they're neutral, but they don't do that because it's shitty. I wouldn't mind if dominators were made the same way.

[Amelius]

> Gangsters can't manage to defend a dominator from a lone cyborg.
> Something that has to be in melee range to hit the dom in the first place.
> Gangsters literally want their greentext handed to them on a silver platter.

Jesus christ, the fact you people are seriously thinking about it worries me, and I haven't played in half a year.

Just a reminder, the only people who should be attacking blatant gangsters or the dominator are security and command staff. If they're incapacitated, only then are you permitted to lie down and die, but not attack it.

Spoiler:

Sarcasm, for the daft.