Turning Bagil into an Official Medium RP server

[DrPillzRedux]

There were some ideas thrown around in OOC today about turning Bagil into a tgstation Official Medium RP server. As the Goons have had success of their own at an actual Med RP server it wouldn't be a bad idea to have one as well. I'd like to see what everyone else thinks about it, as well as get ideas from others. Obviously admins given more training on what's IC and what isn't would be needed, as well as a ruleset.

You may have and retain IC friendships, so long as they do not provide an intentionally unfair advantage
You must at least attempt your job before you run off, unless IC reasons (hazards, needing to help others, etc) arise
You may do another job, but you cannot do it extensively if it's beyond what your character should know (No sitting in genetics researching as a doctor but cloning is fine, no building mechs as a scientist but borging people would be possible)
You may defend yourself and others from antagonists and rowdy co-workers, however, you may not use syndicate gear unless you are a head or security member, as only they should know what that kind of gear does by experience
You may not hunt antagonists unless warranted by an IC reason (being sec, being recruited by sec, being a security cyborg, etc)
You must not start a wild murderbone spree as an antagonist without an IC reason (being caught, it being your objective, etc)

This could be a lot of fun.

[Zilenan91]

I'd be up for this if it became a thing.

[Kel-the-Oblivious]

Have it be you have your job skills, and one sub skill. One aspect of another job, maybe not even related to yours at all. A hobby, a side trade, something.

Plenty of low pop rounds where I have to double duty it as a miner/researcher. Just RnD, sometimes no one else is there to do it, and if that's the one thing besides my job I do, I can see that being reasonable.

[MMMiracles]

Restricting knowledge/item usage based on jobs is awful and generally is unfun.

Stuff like restricting murderbones and blatant validhunting would be a nice change of pace, though.

[Zilenan91]

Ideally we wouldn't be like OH MAN YOU KNOW MINING, RND AND TOXINS NO GTFO BANT
It'd ideally be like how Paradise does it where that rule is really only invoked if someone makes a habit of always trying to do everything.

[Igotdild4u]

I feel like this would be interesting. It would definitely give me more of a reason to play on Bagil rather than Sybil. Within reason, I do like the idea that the bartender shouldn't have the knowledge to operate the advanced bio-medical research machines.

[DrPillzRedux]

Restricting knowledge/item usage based on jobs is awful and generally is unfun.

It's more of limiting it. A doctor would know how to clone someone by having observed geneticists use the cloning machine before, or as part of their training. A scientist would obviously see how roboticists rip out brains, yet they aren't schooled in the fine arts of mech building. A miner could help move crates, but they don't really have the economic teachings that cargonians do. The chef could make drinks, but only simple ones.

It's more of that kind of thought. Giving players enough to where it's not a hard restriction. There's wiggle room in there.

Though I do feel the cloner should be a thing everyone could use as it's literally built so a mentally handicapped person could use it.

[Jazaen]

Great idea, except for the whole IC ability thing. Fairly basic RP is quite a lot for most players, and having ANY RP requirement is already a pretty big leap forward.

[DrPillzRedux]

I meant that more as you have to do your job or at least attempt to, not that you must RP with everyone in your department. Forcing RP is bad. Encouraging it is good.

[Jazaen]

I meant that doing your job kind of is one of the lowest tiers of RP existing, and enforcing RP being just keeping mute stunbaton cablecuff assistants at bay.

[DrPillzRedux]

Enforcement of RP would be for obvious IC reasons, not forcing you to RP with others. If you just want to stay in your role and not talk much, that's fine. I'm sure most people who go on Medium RP will want to socialize though.

[DemonFiren]

The rule against restricting IC knowledge of jobs and traitor items is what I disagree most with, it's also what I find to be one of the most autistic things on Bay.

Everything else checks out, though maybe some naming restrictions should also be added.

[DrPillzRedux]

It's hard to find a balance for job knowledge and meta knowledge on antag stuff. Realistically you want to do something to promote RP without outright forcing people to do nothing, because that's just not fun. The inclusion of actual skills works but an artificial number puts me off slightly, unless it lets players choose their skills accordingly during character setup. Even then, that can be a hard limit unless it's just affecting the success or result of something. I think it'd be okay if you could still do things, you just get different results (lower potency, fewer units of chems, takes more time to do, etc) depending on your skills. That would be purely for non-combat jobs.

Combat jobs and combat itself, I believe, should remain fair and balanced to all. No special powers for anyone; you can defend yourself if attacked the same as you could on sybil. No slow, drawn out combat. That's not medium RP, that's heavy. Making yourself weapons at roundstart as nonsec or nonantag wouldn't make sense though. You'd have to use your workplace gear to fight unless you already have an IC reason to be equipped with makeshift weapons, aside from "well I could be attacked".

[TheNightingale]

* You may have and retain IC friendships, so long as they do not provide an intentionally unfair advantage (breaking your friends out of jail, etc.)

* You must at least attempt your job when you are needed, unless extenuating circumstances (severe workplace hazards, others in danger, etc.) arise.

* You must have a sensible name. "xX_MLG360x420MLG_Xx" is not a sensible name. Non-humans such as lizardpeople, plasmapeople and silicons may choose slightly more unique names, but "Dicks-In-Ass" or "ASS DESTROYER 9001" are still not sensible names.

* You may defend yourself and others from antagonists and rowdy co-workers, but attempted peaceful resolutions must be tried first before escalating the conflict.

* You must not do anything your character would not do. You may retire to a dorm room for rest, for example, but you must not weld through a dorm wall to see who's inside. Your character would follow the law to the best of their ability, unless circumstances arise in which this does not make sense (for example, a traitor tells the CMO to poison cryo, or else Runtime dies).

* You may know how to do jobs in your department and have limited knowledge of other jobs, but only the Clown can be an expert at everything. Whilst an Engineer would likely be trained in the operation of Atmospherics equipment, and a Research Director can (and should) know the intricacies of Science, it is unlikely that a Security Officer could perform surgery to the same degree of competency as a Medical Doctor. Note that whilst you personally might know how something works, your character might not - and so if they try to do something without training, they would likely make mistakes along the way (though nothing prevents you from attempting it).

* You may possess knowledge of overt Syndicate gear such as revolvers, energy swords, minibombs and blood-red hardsuits, but some pieces of Syndicate gear are beyond your knowledge unless their function is studied closely, such as the singularity beacon or power sink (an Engineer might know the function of these more easily than others). Disguised items such as the dehydrated space carp or voice changer are only officially contraband when they are observed to take effect - otherwise, they are simply the item they are disguised as (a pen is not illegal, but an energy dagger is). Soap and balloons are not, and never will be, contraband.

* You may not hunt antagonists unless warranted by an IC reason (being a member of Security or the Mime, they killed your father and your name is Inigo Montoya, etc.); if an antagonist is caught, they should be treated fairly with respect to their crimes. A trial that involves the whole crew is preferable to an on-the-spot execution.

* You must not murder multiple people unnecessarily as an antagonist without a good reason (being discovered and having to shoot your way out, having a 'hijack the shuttle' objective that you have tried and failed to resolve otherwise, etc.) - note that 'my character is insane' is, as always, not a good reason. Killing a witness is acceptable (though there may be other options you wish to consider), as is killing the Detective investigating your case, or the Officer sent to apprehend you. Killing uninvolved, unarmed people without provocation is not acceptable.

How's that?

Bay's skill system and mechanical disadvantages don't work because you can learn things during a round. If a botanist offers to teach you how plants work, it doesn't make sense that you make the same potency ambrosia deus as an Assistant who's never seen a plant in their life.

[DrPillzRedux]

I expressed my take on a skill system in my last post. Results based on skill level for non-combat things was a suggestion. That would take coding or porting from bay. Would be hard to code a whole new system and test it right now given the code freeze. Though since that's a pretty big undertaking, if someone did start now it would be ready for testing when the freeze is over.

[Zilenan91]

There's no reason to code in systems about how many skills you know, that's retarded. We can just do it how Paradise does it and really only care about how many things you know if you make it a routine to do everything.

[K Peculier]

I'm all for medium RP. As you stated, the jump from low to medium rp is quite the step however, but people can get used to it. Although I'm not so sure about newer players to the server since its now on the hub.

[Saegrimr]

I'm actually willing to trust people will roleplay not knowing how to do certain things outside of their job if they care enough to. There's really no need to enforce THAT much, and I doubt anybody on the admin team wants to be bwoinking an engineer for using a bruise patch on themselves.

[Wyzack]

I think that a higher enforcement of rp is a good idea, but I am firmly against any sort of skill based restriction on IC knowledge. Space is dangerous, and mother NT does not give a fuck about you beyond raising profit margins. Due to cloning tech most people have been working there for a long time and would have a wide variety of aptitudes.

Obviously this is just headcannon, but it becomes utterly impossible with knowledge restrictions. You also need to consider the fact that our pop issues will not be solved overnight so if none of the 5 people playing take a vital role like doctor or engineer the game becomes a bullshit waiting game where we hang out with no power and medicine and then leave when the shuttle auto calls due to power loss.

[Steelpoint]

There's a difference between being able to apply what is a over glorified band aid/patch onto yourself versus operating a highly complicated piece of machinery.

Restriction on the ability to use equipment is something I would see out of a more high RP server,

[Zilenan91]

Yeah, restriction of knowledge to a reasonable extent. It'd really be something that's not hard defined if even there at all.

[Pascal123]

Is this guy serious?
He's gonna step into Bagil for once in his life at five in the morning and start trying to make decisions for us, all because lizards aren't on sybil?

Don't get me wrong. Some of these idea's are okay, especially Nightingales revision. But jesus, people.

[Wyzack]

It is staggering the number of times I have joined basil at round start and had to steal the spare, set the engine, set up cryo, and any number of other technical tasks. This will not solve pop overnight and will just ruin rounds. Why not just instead have a higher standard for rp and valid hunting?

[Cheimon]

Medium RP sounds fun, but we need to be very clear on what the fun aspects are. I think a lot of the 'skill based restrictions' don't create interesting roleplaying situations on their own, they just arbitrarily restrict player freedom. Most of the station's mechanisms are set up deliberately so that they're easy for anyone to use: cryo tubes, for example, are literally "plug in the oxygen, turn on the freezer, and put that beaker in the slot". Likewise, the engine is basically set up for you, you just need to wrench things into place, for which there is a book on the table. Pretty much the entire science department is just machines set up to do all the really complicated bits (like making cyborg parts or analysing a flamethrower) and you pressing buttons on a console. It's fine to roleplay being unaware of something, but it's not bad roleplay to be competent and know how to do things outside your immediate job. It only becomes a problem when people stop allowing others to do their actual job because they, as a non-[job], feel they still know better.

Cutting down on murderboning and validhunting for no reason, encouraging in-character relationships and human interaction? That stuff all sounds good.

[cancer_engine]

I worry a lot about being persecuted for roleplaying, so I support this idea.

[cancer_engine]

Also can this server please not have any memes at all? That includes donald trump.
For me contemporary shit in spessmens kills the immershun.

[Jazaen]

Bagil rounds usually are long enough to make most Donald Trumps, Adolf Hitlers and the like go braindead.

[cancer_engine]

So it seems that basil is on the public server list. I think that it would be pretty important to mention that its medium rp on the server listing as soon as possible if thats what its gonna be.

[iamgoofball]

there's way too many medium/heavy RP servers on the BYOND hub, forcing this would basically kill any chance we have of attracting players from the hub

then again considering the population I wouldn't be suprised if that's the plan

[cancer_engine]

there's way too many medium/heavy RP servers on the BYOND hub, forcing this would basically kill any chance we have of attracting players from the hub

then again considering the population I wouldn't be suprised if that's the plan

But goofball, if its not explicitly stated that its medium/heavyrp it will attract normies, thus ruining the game for everyone.

[PKPenguin321]

hasn't the problem with this always been that we would need admins willing to enforce medium RP rules

[newfren]

With it being on the hub it should probably accurately reflect the rules on Sybil/the culture of tg.

[IcePacks]

this would be fantastic but what's your definition of rp

[cancer_engine]

this would be fantastic but what's your definition of rp

Playing a role. On a space themed SPACE station in 2555, that means not being a broken meme machine from 2015. It also means putting some personality into your character beyond "robust and doesnt afraid of anything"

[YotaXP]

And here I though Basil already was medium RP. It's been far more RP-heavy than Sybil for a while now. I'm all for making it official.

[DrPillzRedux]

There's quite some interest in this. I hope this doesn't die.

[ColonicAcid]

I hate terms like "Light RP" or "Medium RP" you may as well call it "Memory Foam King Sized Bed RP".

Define Medium RP and what differences are there between "Heavy RP". If you say that light RP involves more ooc than that right there is like completely off the definition of roleplay and thus you are not roleplaying any more. Roleplay by its very definition if a binary thing. You are either playing a different character or you are not. Right now I could join in as "Dick McPhearson" and just make him a shitty self insert and that would not be roleplaying but it would still be acceptable behaviour. Is that what you want #2 to be? Then it's just a roleplay server.

As of last year tgstation has not been a roleplaying server in any reasonable respect and at this rate it will never be.

[bandit]

this would be fantastic but what's your definition of rp

See, this is the thing.

Some people define "RP" as "persistent character relationships." The actual act of being on a space station is secondary.

Other people define "RP" as "realistic scenarios." So like, say, taking hostages, or negotiating with traitors, or interrogations or trials or such. Cultists who RP conversions. Basically, how high-RP servers do gamemodes. And here, the persistent character relationships are secondary.

The problem is, these people tend to talk past each other and accuse the other of contributing to server validhunting, when in reality they just have a different type of RP in mind. And this is why it is important to be very clear about which.

[DrPillzRedux]

You can do both. It's not like you can't work with IC friends on jobs. You just know each other and can enjoy chatting while working. Same with situational scenarios.

[imblyings]

The sole correct definition of roleplay is

The acting out or performance of a particular role, either consciously (as a technique in psychotherapy or training) or unconsciously, in accordance with the perceived expectations of society as regards a person's behaviour in a particular context.

For /tg/ ss13 and medium rp, this most likely means playing your character in accordance with the perceived expectations of a 21st century western mainstream society as regards a person's (your character's) behavior in the context of a research space station. It's pretty much that simple, make an honest attempt to apply the common standard of RL behavior that we all are familiar with to some extent. The medium part of medium rp is where we acknowledge completely playing in accordance is dumb and not conducive to fun, so we make allowances like botanists being allowed to set up a horrifying black hole for electricity and not be phased one single bit, or not forcing people into acting horrified and scared when they find out that they are a fresh clone.

That is rp, there are no other correct answers please don't waste more time on it. What someone interested in doing this medium rp thing should do is to figure out what exactly is handwaveable for the sake of fun. Also Newfren is kinda right, it's gonna be weird for newcomers dealing with two sets of rules.

Also, it would be kind of hard to get admins to enforce or want to enforce this. If you liked shitposting about admins having conflicting views then you'll really like shitposting about something admins have not adminned before.

I also want to point out one last thing, I'm going to take a guess and say most people itt want sportsmanship, meaningful non-combat interaction and cooperation, but those three aren't really directly tied to rp as defined above.

[tedward1337]

>hub server
>RP
Pick one

[Wyzack]

Had some quality RP on basil last night, although that may well have been because no pubbies ever join

In any case changing what level of RP we enforce on the second server will be entirely moot until admins are actually there to enforce it

[PKPenguin321]

Wasn't there a thread on this exact topic with almost identical posts debating the definition of RP about a year ago?

[TechnoAlchemist]

Not sure why you would do this on the pub server not on Sybil where we actually enforce shit

[Saegrimr]

Not sure why you would do this on the pub server not on Sybil where we actually enforce shit

Because nobody on Sybil wants to RP.

[Wyzack]

Fact of the matter is that a good chunk of the sybil playerbase would not want it at all. I have been playing there a lot more as of late with the bagil outages, but for every person willing to roleplay there are a dozen validhunters or shitters. You can stick whatever basil exclusive rules on that you like, but we very rarely have admins online so it will never be enforced (shout out to my boy J peculiar for running some stuff last night on basil)

[TheNightingale]

We do have people coming in and not realising it's a medium RP server. Three metacommunicators last shift, and they didn't know how to use a taser (thankfully).

[Pascal123]

We've been getting some admins, Like K Peculiar on bagil hosting some interesting events for us to roleplay with.
Would be nice to have some more.

[Wyzack]

Starting to change my mind on the pub thing being a good idea. Just played a round where we had 4-5 people with some variation of the name StrongCini, they may have been metacommunicating. I was also lasered by a silent HoS when i tried to tell him where the shuttle was. This is not going to work if we have absolutely no moderation

[Pascal123]

The "Cini"'s didn't seem like they were metacommunicating to me. More like just a group of friends trying out a new game. They spent most of their time apart, too. One even asked me for help with various things.
As for the HoS, his name was Madolf Kritler or something. So... That would be expected imo.

Maybe there should be an admin notice on Bagil linking directly to the rules and starter guide page for any new players to read before jumping in?
It may be pushing it, but... Maybe even a dedicated Bagil moderator or something? Just to help with these few and far between instances, like with the HoS and blatant meta-communicators that do appear.