daman997, drpillzredux, ig88a, Jsigma - metafriend

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:36 pm #144101

Your byond account: Akesson
Your character name: Notim Portant
Their character name: Salts-The-Wound, Soothes-The-Wound, Carries-The-Stones, Ghall Meyy, various
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): daman997, drpillzredux, ig88a, Jsigma
Server and time: Sybil.
Logs and/or screenshots: See below.
Why they should be banned: Metagaming.

Description of what happened:
Here's the most extensive metagaming investigation I've ever done.

Before we begin, it is a bit of a hassle to make four ban requests. Metagaming is a broad term.

The topics "Metagaming" I'll use in this ban request is as follows:
Adjusting a character's actions based on foreknowledge of the long-term intentions of other players.
Using knowledge from a previously played or dead character.
Acting on any knowledge that the character is not aware of.
Adjusting a character's behavior towards other player characters based on out-of-character relationships with other players.

Normally, I wouldn't do this kind of investigation since it's classified as mini-modding, but my experiences on #supportbus don't seem to be very helpful or able to see metagaming and extreme metafriending as I do, and this has been happening for a long time.

daman997
drpillzredux
ig88a
Jsigma

My initial investigation began when I found these players would ERP round after round. That didn't irk me until they constantly asked for eachother over comms, search for eachother's bodies, and some cases force their way into cloning to clone them.

I've collected around 3 weeks worth of proof that those players have met up, round after round, to metabuddy together.
I have evidence that they've treated eachother differently than to other players.
Even if some parts of this evidence is called unsatisfactory, you cannot deny that if for 3 weeks, the same players meet up without saying a word, that they treat eachother differently, that they take their roleplay too far there's metagaming going on.
The excuse that the locations they meet up aren't always public, the excuse that they meet up in easy to access public locations isn't metagaming isn't valid when they meet up in remote maint tunnels, and meet up for three weeks.
Whilst meeting up round after round is not technically against the rules, no other group of players do this.
There is only one other group which is compariably minor.
No other group on the server meets up round after round, searches for eachother's bodies, constantly PDAs eachother, assists eachother in a self-centered manner.

13/12/2015
00:22:00
Willingness to break into places for one of their friends after they go missing.
After 25:13, it becomes an group centred convorsation of a relationship between those two.

Code: Select all

[00:21:05]SAY: Salts-The-Wound/Daman997 : Sssoothesss, I didn't mean to sssound rude
[00:21:13]SAY: Soothes-The-Wound/DrPillzRedux : How the hell are you finding me?
[00:21:20]SAY: Salts-The-Wound/Daman997 : I dunno I'm lucky I guessssss
[00:21:34]SAY: Ghall Meyy/J-Sigma : Thisss ain't gonna be easssy, Carriesss.
[00:21:46]SAY: Carries-The-Stones/Ig88A : What isssn't going to be easssy?
[00:21:49]SAY: Ghall Meyy/J-Sigma : Sssoothesss could be any where.
[00:21:54]SAY: Carries-The-Stones/Ig88A : True
[00:24:02]SAY: Carries-The-Stones/Ig88A : Commsss down
[00:24:04]SAY: Carries-The-Stones/Ig88A : Dammit
[00:24:06]SAY: Salts-The-Wound/Daman997 : Fuggen
[00:24:15]SAY: Carries-The-Stones/Ig88A : I thought you sssaid ssshe wasss better
[00:24:17]SAY: Carries-The-Stones/Ig88A : Isss thisss better?
[00:24:27]SAY: Salts-The-Wound/Daman997 : I asssked why ssshe wasss being rude to you and ssshe got all mad
[00:24:37]SAY: Salts-The-Wound/Daman997 : No, Carriesss
[00:24:39]SAY: Ghall Meyy/J-Sigma : Oh.
[00:24:57]SAY: Ghall Meyy/J-Sigma : Isss it... her time o' the month?
[00:25:02]SAY: Salts-The-Wound/Daman997 : I dunno
[00:25:07]SAY: Carries-The-Stones/Ig88A : We can alwaysss weld our way in, and try to uh
[00:25:11]SAY: Carries-The-Stones/Ig88A : Get her out
[00:25:13]SAY: Salts-The-Wound/Daman997 : That'sss rude
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/sybil/logs/2015/12-December/13-Sunday.txt

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... Attack.txt
http://puu.sh/mfT81/e81c2b7509.png 172, 130, 1
http://puu.sh/mfTjl/a3607d267b.png 117, 119, 1

Code: Select all

[00:44:50]ATTACK: Artificer (867)(zilenan91) attacked Carries-The-Stones(ig88a)  (NEWHP: 55.5)(167,68,5)
[00:44:52]ATTACK: Artificer (867)(zilenan91) attacked Carries-The-Stones(ig88a)  (NEWHP: 50.5)(166,68,5)
[00:44:53]ATTACK: Juggernaut (830)(drovidicorv) attacked Carries-The-Stones(ig88a)  (NEWHP: 45.5)(166,68,5)
[00:44:53]ATTACK: Artificer (867)(zilenan91) attacked Carries-The-Stones(ig88a)  (NEWHP: 15.5)(166,68,5)
[00:44:54]ATTACK: Juggernaut (830)(drovidicorv) attacked Carries-The-Stones(ig88a)  (NEWHP: 7.5)(166,68,5)
[00:44:54]ATTACK: Artificer (867)(zilenan91) attacked Carries-The-Stones(ig88a)  (NEWHP: -22.5)(166,68,5)
[00:44:55]ATTACK: Artificer (867)(zilenan91) attacked Carries-The-Stones(ig88a)  (NEWHP: -27.5)(166,68,5)
[00:44:55]ATTACK: Juggernaut (830)(drovidicorv) attacked Carries-The-Stones(ig88a)  (NEWHP: -32.5)(166,68,5)
[00:44:57]ATTACK: Artificer (867)(zilenan91) attacked Carries-The-Stones(ig88a)  (NEWHP: -63.1667)(166,68,5)
[00:44:57]ATTACK: Djinn Mackinary(mistergrimm) handcuffed Rob Ust(darno)  (NEWHP: 100)(91,116,1)
[00:44:58]ATTACK: Artificer (867)(zilenan91) attacked Carries-The-Stones(ig88a)  (NEWHP: -68.8333)(166,68,5)
[00:44:58]EMOTE: Carries-The-Stones/Ig88A : <B>Carries-The-Stones</B> seizes up and falls limp, her eyes dead and lifeless...
[00:44:59]ATTACK: Juggernaut (830)(drovidicorv) attacked Carries-The-Stones(ig88a)  (NEWHP: -100)(166,68,5)
[00:44:59]ATTACK: Artificer (88)(funkmound) attacked Carries-The-Stones  (NEWHP: -124)(166,68,5)
[00:44:59]ATTACK: Artificer (867)(zilenan91) attacked Carries-The-Stones  (NEWHP: -124)(166,68,5)
 
[00:45:00]ATTACK: Juggernaut (830)(drovidicorv) attacked Carries-The-Stones  (NEWHP: -129)(166,68,5)
[00:45:00]ATTACK: Artificer (867)(zilenan91) attacked Carries-The-Stones  (NEWHP: -129)(166,68,5)
[00:45:01]ATTACK: Artificer (88)(funkmound) attacked Carries-The-Stones  (NEWHP: -134)(166,68,5)
[00:45:01]ATTACK: Juggernaut (830)(drovidicorv) attacked Carries-The-Stones  (NEWHP: -139)(166,68,5)
[00:45:01]ATTACK: Artificer (88)(funkmound) attacked Carries-The-Stones  (NEWHP: -167.5)(166,68,5)
[00:45:46]PDA: Ghall Meyy (PDA: PDA-Ghall Meyy (Assistant)) sent "Wanna meet up at the bar?" to PDA-Carries-The-Stones (Shaft Miner)
[00:46:28]ATTACK: Artificer (88)(funkmound) attacked Carries-The-Stones  (NEWHP: -172.5)(168,71,5)
[00:47:08]PDA: Ghall Meyy (PDA: PDA-Ghall Meyy (Assistant)) sent "Carries? You there?" to PDA-Carries-The-Stones (Shaft Miner)
[00:47:10]ATTACK: Greg Dunkleman(cosbyspuddin) shaked Ghall Meyy(jsigma)  (NEWHP: 100)(172,130,1) 
[00:50:26]ATTACK: Artificer (88)(funkmound) attacked Carries-The-Stones  (NEWHP: -172.5)(168,71,5)
 
 
At this point, Ghall begins looking for the body and did a u-turn from Medbay-science right to cargo.
The rest of the Juggernauts had just managed to get off the Cargo shuttle, and en-route to cargo, JSigma had to fight Juggernauts. As evidented by the U-turn from 172, 130 to 117, 119
 
[00:55:21]ATTACK: Ghall Meyy(jsigma) shot Juggernaut (830)(drovidicorv) with the laser (NEWHP: 140)(117,119,1)
[00:55:31]ATTACK: Ghall Meyy(jsigma) shot Juggernaut (830)(drovidicorv) with the laser (NEWHP: 120)(116,116,1)
[00:55:31]ATTACK: Juggernaut (830)(drovidicorv) attacked Ghall Meyy(jsigma)  (NEWHP: 67.5)(116,114,1)
[00:55:31]ATTACK: Ghall Meyy(jsigma) shot Juggernaut (830)(drovidicorv) with the laser (NEWHP: 100)(116,115,1)
[00:55:32]ATTACK: Mike Hawk(thehumanboss) shaked Quiet French Guy(sperky7933)  (NEWHP: 94)(161,130,1)
[00:55:34]ATTACK: Juggernaut (Captain)(drovidicorv) attacked Ghall Meyy(jsigma)  (NEWHP: 36)(116,111,1)
[00:55:35]ATTACK: Ghall Meyy(jsigma) hit Juggernaut (Captain)(drovidicorv) with the laser gun (NEWHP: 75)(116,112,1)
[00:55:35]ATTACK: Juggernaut (Captain)(drovidicorv) attacked Ghall Meyy(jsigma)  (NEWHP: 5.5)(116,110,1)
[00:55:37]ATTACK: Juggernaut (Captain)(drovidicorv) attacked Ghall Meyy(jsigma)  (NEWHP: -24.5)(116,109,1)
[00:55:38]ATTACK: Juggernaut (Captain)(drovidicorv) attacked Ghall Meyy(jsigma)  (NEWHP: -55)(116,108,1)
[00:55:39]ATTACK: Juggernaut (Captain)(drovidicorv) attacked Ghall Meyy(jsigma)  (NEWHP: -85)(116,109,1)
[00:55:40]ATTACK: Juggernaut (Captain)(drovidicorv) attacked Ghall Meyy(jsigma)  (NEWHP: -97.1667)(116,111,1)
[00:55:41]ATTACK: Juggernaut (Captain)(drovidicorv) attacked Ghall Meyy(jsigma)  (NEWHP: -97.1667)(116,111,1)
[00:55:42]ATTACK: Juggernaut (Captain)(drovidicorv) attacked Ghall Meyy(jsigma)  (NEWHP: -127.833)(116,111,1)
[00:55:44]ATTACK: Juggernaut (Captain)(drovidicorv) attacked Ghall Meyy(jsigma)  (NEWHP: -157.833)(116,112,1)
[00:57:44]SAY: Juggernaut (572)/J-Sigma : I ain't killin a certain gal though; she's mine t' fuck.

[00:57:44]SAY: Juggernaut (572)/J-Sigma : I ain't killin a certain gal though; she's mine t' fuck.
At this point, I suggest just looking into some logs from a few rounds and you'll find that they not only constantly PDA themselves but they meet up without a word. This circlejerk proves that literally within 30 seconds of their buddy dying they get a PDA message and though they didn't respond, they changed their attitude completely.

Here's a lot of evidence of constant meetups in sometimes remote locations at roundstart

Spoiler:

To conclude this, I'd like to state that these are only a small amount of pieces of evidence I've caught. There must be hundreds more incidents I am completely unaware of as I don't follow them around.

Are there any player, players, or groups that have taken relationships this far?
As far as I am aware, no other player constantly PDAs eachother, asks over comms, and meets up this often.

These meta-relationships become a problem for Antags as clearly seen in example one in when one of them immediately rushed to Cargo direction to search for the other's body, and problems to normal players such as the use of Pods which leaves a majority of players stranded on-station.

Not to mention during team antags, there is a significant amount of bias that can occur as seen in example one when JSigma stated he would refuse to kill certain individuals.
I've also noted that during modes like gang, they always seem to be on the same gang. This is experience from more than 5 gang rounds where Daman and Drpillz are on the same gang.

On meeting up, round after round they meet up in different locations. Whether this is a pre-set location, or it's the metagame to look between locations, these players meet up every round. Far more than any other group from my observation.

It really is an IC advantage when I know that if I die, someone will search for my body, and I cannot be killed without someone blowing their stealth.

There are various other screenshots I've recorded that are ommitted due to lack of information during the round.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:55 pm #144102

My purely anecdotal encounters with these guys have been fine, and i have never been excluded for no reason. I also think that policing IC interaction to this degree is kinda shit

Post by **oranges** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:15 pm #144107

This isn't about their IC interaction, either they have an out of game communication method or they all have ESP.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:23 pm #144110

I dunno, all of JMads closing arguments seem to be about how their IC interactions give them an advantage. Obviously if they are metacomming that is an issue

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:29 pm #144111

Wyzack wrote:I dunno, all of JMads closing arguments seem to be about how their IC interactions give them an advantage. Obviously if they are metacomming that is an issue

There's no definitive way to prove metacomming except with evidence (recording, chatlog), which would imply involvement with the group.

I can prove outside of BYOND they can communicate with eachother, but that's hardly evidence.

I can only think of two other players that have IC interaction advantages, but not to this scale.

I'd like to see any examples of other players that take their IC relationships this far, because I've yet to see it.

DrPillzRedux · Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:33 pm

I'm going to absolutely destroy you, at least on the points regarding me, though I'll touch a few others.

Before I begin, let me start with a direct quote from the rules.

2. Do not use information gained outside of in character means
i.e.. metagaming. This especially refers to communication between players outside of the game via things like Skype, known as metacomms. Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists, as well as keep persistent friendships or relationships with other characters when not for the purpose of unfair advantage by teaming up together for little IC reason.

Let me break that down for you.

Characters are otherwise allowed to keep persistent friendships or relationships with other characters when not for the purpose of unfair advantage by teaming up together for little IC reason.

when not for the purpose of unfair advantage by teaming up together for little IC reason.

when not for the purpose of unfair advantage

And let me hammer this one into your head.

[quote]FOR LITTLE IC REASON[/quote]

Keep that in mind when observing IC friends.

Willingness to break into places for one of their friends after they go missing.

Last I was aware, welding down a dorm door to a girder was not breaking a rule. If a dorm door is bolted most people will weld down the wall to see what's inside. If you're chasing someone and they bolt themselves into a dorm room, cutting it open is a normal response.

you'll find that they not only constantly PDA themselves but they meet up without a word.

PDAing someone is not against the rules. Also, the stations are not large enough to miss someone you know in the halls, especially if they're running around getting gear, clothes from the vendor, etc.

Carries-The-Stones meets with Soothes-The-Wound in Chapel. No communication between them, except someone (unrelated) had called for people to come to the Chapel about 10 minutes before.

Carries-The-Stones meets with Soothes-The-Wound in locker rooms, no communication over radio.

Again, do you really think the stations are large enough to where if you run around you won't see who you're looking for? If you're looking for someone do you not check the general halls, where anyone has access to?

Salts-The-Wound and Soothes-The-Wound are killed whilst ERPing in dorms during a gang round. Emily Ranger called the location over Sec radio, hid the bodies in the locker, but the two bodies were recovered by another player.

Do you think gang members are not going to retrieve the dead from security?

Salts rushes Backstage roundstart for Carp costume, meets with another lizard.

It's against the rules now to go for a piece of clothing and running into an IC friend?

Within minutes of the round starting, four of the players make their way to library after a mass PDA and spend the round there.

Is organizing a tabletop with people you know an advantage? I'm sure you can book priority seating with a PDA message.

Reoccurring factor. This isn't the first incident where these players would leave the station by escape pods whenever possible. There has been several occasions they've met up and taken pods during code red.

What is the advantage of this, given that anyone may board a pod and evacuate? On the players themselves, they will usually wait and see if anyone else wishes to board, hence on round Yesterday where over 8 people were on a pod. Should they just not board a pod and use a coded feature?

As far as I am aware, no other player constantly PDAs eachother, asks over comms, and meets up this often.

May I see the rule that states players cannot PDA one-another, speak over coms to one-another, or meet up with one-another?

problems to normal players such as the use of Pods which leaves a majority of players stranded on-station.

Except I have already proven this false.

I've also noted that during modes like gang, they always seem to be on the same gang. This is experience from more than 5 gang rounds where Daman and Drpillz are on the same gang.

It's against the rules to be converted into a gang where an IC friend happens to be in? Clearly you must ban the gangheads, of which you do not know IC, who happen to get two IC friends into their gang.

I'll humble you and give an example to further how you're wrong. I think it was two days ago where I had forgotten to set my job prefs to assistant, so I end up as Warden. I do not like to play security so I turn in my stuff to the HoP, then go braindead in the bar as I was dealing with something IRL, only responding off and on to the game. Hornygranny spawns revs and they kill me in the bar, right by the door. I have an ID that says I'm an assistant, but I am loyalty implanted. I am revived and daman, who was in the gang, suggested to cut out my implant so that they could convert me. That's a normal response. In gang, if you capture someone with an implant and you're in medbay, the best thing to do is cut it out and gain another person. They instead decide to cut my brain out. Daman does not stop them. I am removed from the round.

It really is an IC advantage when I know that if I die, someone will search for my body

Except that assistants are known for spelunking into maint looking for dead bodies. I do so myself, not only for people I know, but for people I do not. If I see a dead person, I take it to medbay. It's the reaction of any normal person. Furthermore, looking for a dead friends body does not seem like little IC reason to me.

I'd like to extend my thanks to you for spending your personal time monitoring a byond game, as a non admin, trying to better the server. Even without pay you watch very closely. Clearly we need more people like you who do not act from emotions, but rather an obsessive impulse to bring justice to lizards.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:01 pm #144114

1. Actually you're a special snowflake exception. There's no other group of players that keep such a persistent and unfair relationship.
Believe me, you're not the only group I notice, but you're second to none.
You cannot be compared to any other IC relationship. No other player has an IC relationship where they meet round after round, benefit eachother, ect.

2. Ain't it funny when you're willing to break/force your way into cloning like you're willing to break down walls for your metabuddy.

3. PDAing someone isn't against the rules. It's also pretty shitty to start metagaming for bodies because your buddy didn't reply on PDA.
Regardless, same point goes; no other player PDAs their buddies nearly as much as you. It's a clear advantage as shown by the Juggernaut case where JSigma didn't get a reply, and metagamed to find the body.

4. Actually this was maints near Atmos. A lawyer has little reason to rush into maint shafts at roundstart and meet up with you there.
Nor has there been an occasion where two players have met up without convorsation in such a secluded location.

5. I never specified you were gang members. I was extremely suspicious of the person that dragged the locked locker of your bodies out since what Emily did with the bodies shouldn't have been called out.

6. No. But it's a bit suspicious when it happens round after round you "coincidentally" meet with an IC friend.

7. No other player does this, and those that have I don't see evidence of them doing it constantly.

8. None. It's an observation of how all four of you were able to meet with the same pod.

9. It's called taking IC relationships too far. You can grey-line the rules, and I can call it out.

10. You take the pods at first opportunity. This isn't the first time. Like I said I've 3 weeks of evidence.

11. No. But coincidence four or five games in a row isn't coincidence.

12. Really. I think the concept of your meta-relationship forcing antags to kill anywhere from 2 people to 7 people just for a single assassination target makes your IC relationship too serious.

I don't discriminate between Lizards and humans. I see things equally. And when I find that the biggest group of metafriends just so happens to be lizards, I widen my search.
I've given evidence in about Dante Smith, a human player, and I've have a little evidence of Terry McFall and Mary Colhern meeting up and ERPing. Both human players.

The difference is, there's no evidence they take their IC relationships to search for eachother's bodies nearly as much as you, and they actually play the game.

DrPillzRedux · Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:21 pm

2. Ain't it funny when you're willing to break/force your way into cloning like you're willing to break down walls for your metabuddy.

I break into cloning regardless if there are dead people waiting to be revived so they can play once again if the geneticists are either unresponsive or no one is around to open it because, well, they're all dead or antags.

It's a clear advantage as shown by the Juggernaut case where JSigma didn't get a reply, and metagamed to find the body.

I'm wondering if Carries was a Cargo tech. If so, checking cargo for them makes perfect sense IC. Even if they were not, cargo is still linked to a public area and can be checked by anyone. Doing a circle down by engineering, then to cargo and up is logical. However I cannot comment as that's not me.

Nor has there been an occasion where two players have met up without convorsation in such a secluded location.

No. But it's a bit suspicious when it happens round after round you "coincidentally" meet with an IC friend.

No. But coincidence four or five games in a row isn't coincidence.

Noticing habits of where people are is natural. JC Denton will often be in genetics, as he's a master of genetics and makes that quite clear by giving out hulk. Hanz Leonid is a detective, and will probably roam the halls watching for suspicious activity. Salts-The-Wound is a maint dwelling assistant, and will likely be in maintenance. You say it's for an advantage, and yet, it's a natural thought process, as pointed out by Kor.

Really. I think the concept of your meta-relationship forcing antags to kill anywhere from 2 people to 7 people just for a single assassination target makes your IC relationship too serious.

This kind of thought is what's part of the problem this server has. No RP to lure people away (which has happened to me plenty of times) and no utilizing the tools you are given. You stick to the meta that your target will not be with anyone and get your greentext. No interacting with others.

Terry McFall and Mary Colhern meeting up and ERPing. Both human players.

Last I checked, ERP is not against the rules, Madison. Getting lewd emotes from another person is not an advantage, unless you're into that kind of thing.

and they actually play the game.

He finally said it. You cannot RP, you cannot socialize or use the RP features such as cards, dice, books, and many other things. You must absolutely play the game one way: Where the antagonists are the target. You must be searching for them at all times. If you have a job, you must absolutely do it for the thousandth time, as if you haven't done that enough in your years of playing SS13. It does not matter as long as you wordlessly do the same thing over, and over, and over again in RnD, Mining, Cargo, or any area. You must stick to the gameplay and not deter.

It's people like you who've turned tgstation from a place where RP was once considered a normal thing. Bars full of people interacting were not a stigma, people in the library reading or playing game were not a sign of circlejerking.

I'll not comment further on the matter. I've said all there is to be said. If an admins has any questions they may contact me in-game or on here and I'll answer as soon as I can.

And, no, we don't metacom. I speak for myself and for daman. Like I care enough about what happens in this game to.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:26 pm #144118

I find it baffling that as a whole people claim to be against the play2win silent validhunt shitters and yet we get banreqs like this one being seriously considered. I personally find ERP to be distasteful and kind gross but there is no way in hell we can have it be allowed on the basis of "at least it creates roleplay" and then have a non-appointed headmin warn players for having persistent IC relationships.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:37 pm #144121

1. Yeah, no, I've never seen players search maint for their buddies body then demand the body be cloned as much as you do from anyone else.
I'm not gonna pussyfoot around. I've seen people bring bodies for cloning, I've seen windows get smashed, but when you bring your buddy's body?
That a different case.

2 and 3. Then identity bans should be handed out when people change their playstyle because of a snowflake name.

4. There's RP on the server, but if your excuse to have an inclusive group that goes above and beyond the normal player gameplay to disrupt the round by having your own metagroup, I don't think RP matters at that point.

5. ERP isn't against the rules. I know that. Just so happens ERP coincides with behavior as I'm reporting. I'm well aware that Terry and Mary have a metafriend relationship, and I'm also aware that what they do, whilst valid to be killed, isn't against the rule. Is this report for ERP?

6. Actually, Daman997 has metacommed with Kingofbananas from a previous note/ban log from supportbus, which I can prove MTKOB and Daman do indeed know eachother OOC and that metagaming ban was probably valid.

onleavedontatme · Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:46 pm

normal player gameplay to disrupt the round

Could you elaborate on what "normal" gameplay and rounds are? Just so everyone is on the same page.

I think everyone is aware by now that I dislike lizards but I dont see how a group of assistants hanging around in the bar is harmful.

Especially since people have been banned for getting too caught up in the mechanical side of things (validhunting).

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:47 pm #144124

J_Madison wrote: I've seen people bring bodies for cloning, I've seen windows get smashed, but when you bring your buddy's body?
That a different case.

Dude what? Are you saying it is okay to do it unless it is your IC friend? That does not make much fucking sense

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:54 pm #144129

Wyzack wrote:
J_Madison wrote: I've seen people bring bodies for cloning, I've seen windows get smashed, but when you bring your buddy's body?
That a different case.

Dude what? Are you saying it is okay to do it unless it is your IC friend? That does not make much fucking sense

No. He's talking about how he brings dead bodies to MedBay anyway.

No this was a special case when he brought his buddy's body.
It was long before I started logging this down, but he demanded his buddy be cloned, and stayed there whilst his buddy was cloning.

This isn't normal behavior. I've only seen this with players that have metafriend relationships, just so happens this group is the one I'm focusing on.

Kor wrote:
normal player gameplay to disrupt the round
Could you elaborate on what "normal" gameplay and rounds are? Just so everyone is on the same page.

Playing a job role normally, without involving metafriends or changing playstyle due to relationships.

However every time I've seen this group play, they specifically involve eachother.
When they switched to mining this early morning, both of them were mining, when they play medbay or botany, they involve eachother.

Zellion · Post by **Zellion** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:11 pm #144133

People are doing boring jobs that are bearable when you do them with someone you enjoy talking to? Damn man call the CIA, FBI, KGB, coast guard, and navy seals. I guess you're right about the normal gameplay though, these damn lizard roleplayets arnt doing their jobs normally as assistants, which is of course silently hunting down antags.This server is strict gameplay only, no dilly dallying. Could you clarify what kind of playstyle change they do when they all roll mining, medbay, and botany though?

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:33 pm #144137

Zellion wrote:Could you clarify what kind of playstyle change they do when they all roll mining, medbay, and botany though?

Bringing eachother to their workplaces to ERP/Metafriend as seen in the Medbay image. Didn't take one of Botany.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:45 pm #144140

What is the solution then? Draw a nebulous "too far" line in the sand and then scrutinize every IC relationship to make sure no one crosses it? None of your so called proof really looks like anything against the rules or even toeing the line, and the only real argument is that antags need to use a modicum of creativity to kill or convert them. Why does this rustle your jimmies so hard that made you go on this crusade in the first place?

DrPillzRedux · Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:54 pm

I will confess, I went mining with an IC friend last night. We harvested many a rare ore for RnD to use. Except maybe 15 minutes in the shuttle was called so we went back, processed them, then went to the shuttle as it had docked.

Another round I as the librarian recruited one, who was an assistant, and they were happy to help. We stocked the library and created a news channel. The first thing we did was interview Zeela Takk the Head of Security. They seemed really happy we had arranged this. We went to shoot photo at the kudzu in the halls next, and ended up helping the crew fight the mutated kudzu for a while. After that we went on the shuttle.

These job advantages are huge. Take me away, admins.

daman997 · Post by **daman997** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:13 pm #144144

Yes I had meta'd with Kingofbananas in the past, but I don't do that anymore. It's pretty lame for everyone else so I don't do that anymore.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:14 pm #144145

Just throwing in the fact that you make IC references to your out of game communication with your IC buddies. No one can prove if your metagaming or not but communication is happening.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:47 pm #144156

They've admitted they do use things like Skype for other games like GTAV but not in SS13.

Overall I think J_Madison is doing another of his rants and the lizard crew really didn't do anything wrong.

DrPillzRedux · Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:51 pm

Zilenan91 wrote:They've admitted they do use things like Skype for other games like GTAV but not in SS13.

I don't even have Skype installed. Me and Daman just use steam to arrange GTA5 nights.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:14 am #144163

It wasn't even you they were talking about, some other lizard metafriend

DrPillzRedux · Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:26 am

NikNakFlak wrote:It wasn't even you they were talking about, some other lizard metafriend

Zilenan91 wrote:They've admitted they do use things like Skype for other games like GTAV

As far as I know Daman and I are the only ones who talk about playing GTA5 together in OOC. Other than proving we play games besides SS13, I don't see how it's relevant. Anyone thinking that I metacom when I interact appropriately IC are delusional.

Such as J_madison.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:48 am #144165

Zilenan91 wrote:They've admitted they do use things like Skype for other games like GTAV but not in SS13.

Overall I think J_Madison is doing another of his rants and the lizard crew really didn't do anything wrong.

I've evidence that Daman and King know eachother quite well for atleast 9 months. Problem is not if they metacom or not, but proving if they do.

Regardless, 2 months worth of logs, 3 weeks with of screenshots.
I think that's reasonable evidence to say that you probably know eachother too well and it creates unfair benefits to it.

Can anyone name any other player that does what you do?

Simple. You can't. No other player involves their buddies when playing.
You are second to none when it comes to this. No other player meets up round after round in eachother's workplaces, maint tunnels, general locations to ERP or mess about.
And if you do die, as logs 1 and evidence of Daman's metagaming has shown, your group will try find a way to clone eachother.

DrPillzRedux · Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:52 am

Usually you do try to clone the dead, Madison.

Of course I wouldn't expect you to know since you don't play.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:09 am #144171

>literally trying to ban friendships and fun because they might inhibit the completion of a traitor's objectives that nobody cares about

W O W

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:14 am #144173

Cik wrote:>literally trying to ban friendships and fun because they might inhibit the completion of a traitor's objectives that nobody cares about

W O W

No. Not just that. It's an unfair advantage to the players and these friendships has lead to metagaming.

It doesn't even need to be voice metacomms. You both have each other on steam.

Insulting me using ad hominem isn't going to make my point less valid. You take your IC relationships way too far to the point you meet up and circlejerk every round.

Pascal123 · Post by **Pascal123** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:16 am #144175

Why do all your arguments end with Hurr durr don't listen to him guise he doesn't play...?
Is that really your go-to response?

DrPillzRedux · Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:27 am

Pascal123 wrote:Why do all your arguments end with Hurr durr don't listen to him guise he doesn't play...?
Is that really your go-to response?

Probably because he doesn't. He has his own server. If he does not agree with the defined stance of tg, he may return to his own. Players are allowed to give input on things, yet as someone with their own server, and as someone who barely plays here, the way ge demands changes that go by his standards are not acceptable.

When he comes here, he either observes and barges into irc demanding erpers be gibbed, or gets so upset by IC events that he creates admin complaints trying to get the admins to enforce his way. This could work because dealing with him is an absolute headache.

Zellion · Post by **Zellion** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:30 am #144177

Everyone needs to stop using this forum right now. Communication outside of the game leads to metagaming.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:32 am #144182

Whether I own a server or not is not involved in this.
I play on tg.
Nothing more to be said.
It doesn't matter if I own a server or not.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:38 am #144186

Yes it does matter if you own a server, it's honestly ridiculous that you feel it's the right thing to do to come here and change everything you don't like rather than changing the things you don't like on your own server.

That's like buying a house and then going to every other house in the neighbourhood and breaking all the windows because you don't like windows, then not breaking your own windows.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:51 am #144192

I don't think you've actually disproven the fact that there is a clear meta-relation going on.

So far it's been nothing but attacks on my character. There's no rebuttle to the evidence that shows there is metagaming going on and this is an unfair advantage using OOC information and IC relationships too seriously.

As I've said. No other player on the server does this.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:59 am #144193

People are being a bit overly-hostile but Madison I think you're completely overblowing the entire situation here.

You also seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding as to how relationships work

DrPillzRedux · Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:00 am

That's actually quite false considering how people will convert robust players like Emily Ranger as soon as they can. Are you going to ban them as well?

Knowing someone IC and acting appropriately to situations is not metagaming. That's metafriending. Metagaming would imply it's purposefully used to gain an advantage in gameplay. What OOC knowledge do you speak of that gives us an advantage? Finding someone based on previous habits? The stations are so big that you cannot, right? You cannot logically deduce where someone could be based on their job or what's going on, right?

I find it less to be of attacks on your character, but more of remindings of it. Something to keep on mind when this guy makes yet another ban request or complaint. The history of your actions are relevant to new ones.

cancer_engine · Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:00 am

J_Madison wrote:I don't think you've actually disproven the fact that there is a clear meta-relation going on.

So far it's been nothing but attacks on my character. There's no rebuttle to the evidence that shows there is metagaming going on and this is an unfair advantage using OOC information and IC relationships too seriously.

As I've said. No other player on the server does this.

I'd just like to say that the "evidence" you've presented doesn't seem to show any metacomms to me. As a guy who RPs a lot I have bumped into my IC friends in the areas you've shown in the pictures lots of times. As for the logs, I don't see anything incriminating there either. I think this might be a case of needing to walk a mile in another's shoes. You should try RPing all round, you'll probably find out that having friends is hard to avoid and you will also find that it's pretty easy to run into friends.

ABearInTheWoods · Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:04 am

Lets try to keep the bickering and adhoms and offtopic shit to singulo please.

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:26 am #144201

There's no hard evidence of metacommunication or metagaming to cheat. I gave some of these players a warning and I trust they'll make sure they play fair.