Holoparasites and Asimov

[Tsaricide]

Should silicons know right away that harming the parasites will harm the human?

Currently there isn't anyway to disable a parasite unless the host is dead right?

Will they be treated like rampaging hulks or will Kor make some sort of code change?

Had a round earlier today where an AI set it's turrets to lethal to shoot my parasite and kill me, he then admitted it later in ghost chat.

[TechnoAlchemist]

I think it makes sense to not "know" that killing the spirit will kill a human. Otherwise silicons are fucked since they can't even stun the spirits.

Plus it's a big meta logic jump to know how the spirits work.

[Deitus]

the way i see it is that when the parasites start causing harm, they need to be stopped, so attacking the nonhuman holoparasites is necessary. also my headcannon was that holoparasites are "spoopy syndicate tech" that hasnt been deployed before, so the crew, let alone the silicons, dont know exactly what they are/what the entail.

seems like a bit of a grey area, though.

[Steelpoint]

Grey area as noted above but Spirits should be free game.

I can see it going either way, especially if the Traitor informs Silicon's of how the Spirit harms the user when it takes damage. But I can see it being very annoying that a Silicon can't do anything to help, dammed if you do dammed if you don't.

[DaemonBomb]

Is someone who's filled with hologram projecting nanites still human though?
Do we consider augmented people human? I mean, Cyborgs still have human brains, so technically they could be considered heavily augmented humans, couldn't they?

If asmiov protection doesn't extend over cyborgs, it shouldn't extend over Holoparasite users.

[onleavedontatme]

I think it's fine for the borgs to kill the parasite and then go "oh no the human died mysteriously" otherwise they're stuck doing nothing but watching while it attacks people.

So yeah like hulks.

[Saegrimr]

Is someone who's filled with hologram projecting nanites still human though?
Do we consider augmented people human? I mean, Cyborgs still have human brains, so technically they could be considered heavily augmented humans, couldn't they?

If asmiov protection doesn't extend over cyborgs, it shouldn't extend over Holoparasite users.

I was actually considering the whole fully augmented human thing the other day, since at that point you're basically internal organs (I think), eyes, and a brain.
My guess is the whole part where free will stops, if you were a borg without laws to follow? Probably close enough to human.

Holoparasites are definitely not human, but to say attacking them when it causes harm to humans is about the same as "I was just releasing plasma, the humans dieing is a side effect."
So you stun the user, right? The only way to stop them is to kill them, I dragged my in-crit host to medbay and recalled before anybody could see me just to ensure he got medical attention before he died.
You're gonna have a fun time as a borg trying to convince all the other humans around not to kill the guy you just stunned.

Problem is they're already strong as fuck, and to give them asimov protection as well is even crazier.

[DaemonBomb]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that it could be argued that the host is just as non-human as the parasite, because they are a single living creature with two consciousnesses.

In any case, the AI won't know about any of this unless the host PMs the AI the holoparasite's lore or something... in that case, would the AI be allowed to assume the host is lying about the connection?

[Shadowlight213]

Pretty much what Kor said, but if the parasite recalls, you still need to get the host medical attention if they are in crit. Also anyone attacking the host directly is harming a human.

[ThanatosRa]

"Oh No, that human died!" seems reasonable to me. Also I guess I can assume that a Borg could also believe that Traitors lie, and that syndicate lies are harmful and not to be believed to prevent a conflict with being told that killing the parasite kills the dude.
EDIT: But I suppose Palpy's statement would partially override that. Kill the parasite with that assumption then drag the traitor to medbay and unceremoniously dump there with security alerted?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that it could be argued that the host is just as non-human as the parasite, because they are a single living creature with two consciousnesses.

In any case, the AI won't know about any of this unless the host PMs the AI the holoparasite's lore or something... in that case, would the AI be allowed to assume the host is lying about the connection?

Holoparasites do not dehuman you.

Get your robotic hands out of that Pandora's box of "WELL WHAT DEFINES HUMANS HUH"?

human: mob/living/carbon/human , mutantrace human, no Hulk mutation, no laws saying otherwise

[rockpecker]

"Oh No, that human died!" seems reasonable to me. Also I guess I can assume that a Borg could also believe that Traitors lie, and that syndicate lies are harmful and not to be believed to prevent a conflict with being told that killing the parasite kills the dude.

"Borg, stop attacking my holoparasite" = a law 2 order. This is all anyone needs to know on the subject.

EDIT: But I suppose Palpy's statement would partially override that. Kill the parasite with that assumption then drag the traitor to medbay and unceremoniously dump there with security alerted?

Funny, I don't remember where silicons are allowed to harm humans as long as they take them to medbay afterward.

Goddammit, stop looking for loopholes to justify your validhunting. If you want to knock heads, play security or assistant or anything where you are not explicitly commanded out of the box not to harm people.

[onleavedontatme]

>stopping the alien robot from ORAORAORAing everyone to death is validunting

And killing the parasite kills the host, so you're under no obligation to take them to medbay unless you want to clone and arrest them.

[Shadowlight213]

But I suppose Palpy's statement would partially override that. Kill the parasite with that assumption then drag the traitor to medbay and unceremoniously dump there with security alerted?

If the human is dead, you give 0 fucks about the body under asimov.
What I meant by that statement is if the host drops to crit and the parasite recalls, you are obligated to get said host to medbay and healed. If the parasite stays out, you can continue to attack it, as it is obviously harming the host by its presence.

Rockpecker, we are not protecting guardians under law 1 of asimov. Sure the traitor can law 2 you to not attack it, but if it then goes and starts attacking humans, law 1 overrides that. Hurting the host DIRECTLY as a means of destroying the Guardian is not allowed. Harming the guardian is allowed however.

[bandit]

Get your robotic hands out of that Pandora's box of "WELL WHAT DEFINES HUMANS HUH"?

human: mob/living/carbon/human , mutantrace human, no Hulk mutation, no laws saying otherwise

Defining humans by what path they are in the game's code is literally the definition of metagaming.

[lumipharon]

Uwotm8?

[imblyings]

Pretty much what Kor said, but if the parasite recalls, you still need to get the host medical attention if they are in crit. Also anyone attacking the host directly is harming a human.

We'll go with this.

Not the first time we let players handwave and be temporarily dumb in a server where characters are technically allowed to know everything. We make hulks lose humanity temporarily despite genetics powers giving humans equally strange abilities, we make atmos techs lose their higher brain functions temporarily when they think about how smart it would be to just disconnect a gas tank of toxic gas from the station distro asap, and we can make robits temporarily forget that hosts will be harmed if their parasites are harmed.

IC fluff isn't an issue here, it's whether treating OOC mechanics a certain way will cause more hassle and holoparasites being immune to asimov on top of their abilities seem like too much hassle for the price of 12 TC.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Get your robotic hands out of that Pandora's box of "WELL WHAT DEFINES HUMANS HUH"?

human: mob/living/carbon/human , mutantrace human, no Hulk mutation, no laws saying otherwise

Defining humans by what path they are in the game's code is literally the definition of metagaming.

No it's not.

That's the definition of human as enforced by the badmins.

[bandit]

Except it isn't even that. Lizards fall under that path IIRC.

[Saegrimr]

That's the definition of human as enforced by the badmins.

*to the tune of "Macarena"*
AYYYY EL EM AY AOOOOO

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Except it isn't even that. Lizards fall under that path IIRC.

That's the definition of human as enforced by the badmins.

*to the tune of "Macarena"*
AYYYY EL EM AY AOOOOO

human: mob/living/carbon/human , mutantrace human, no Hulk mutation, no laws saying otherwise

Lizardpeople have the lizardperson mutantrace datum, as do flypeople, jellypeople, golems, and podpeople with their respective mutation

[Saegrimr]

You know what else is there? Corpses. Still not a concern of asimov as of our server policy.

[TheNightingale]

You know what else is there? Corpses. Still not a concern of asimov as of our server policy.

Are corpses human? Do you have to prevent harm occurring to them?

[Saegrimr]

You have no obligation to protect a corpse as asimov.

[tuypo1]

just go back to making them magical and have the ritual make you nonhuman.

[tuypo1]

You have no obligation to protect a corpse as asimov.

do you at least have to get them cloned?.

[Shadowlight213]

You have no obligation to protect a corpse as asimov.

do you at least have to get them cloned?.

Nope. You aren't obligated to get them cloned.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

You have no obligation to protect a corpse as asimov.

do you at least have to get them cloned?.

Nope. You aren't obligated to get them cloned.

Because a corpse, being a dead human, is in a maximum state of injury and harm, and therefore no further damage to it does anything.

Also you should try to stop MDs from defibrilating, since that creates an imminently dying human, instead of an unharmable dead one.

[TheNightingale]

By that logic, you should bolt down and depower Genetics, because cloning a human puts them in a state of harm (clone damage). Try that as an AI and see how long it takes you to get lynched.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

By that logic, you should bolt down and depower Genetics, because cloning a human puts them in a state of harm (clone damage). Try that as an AI and see how long it takes you to get lynched.

Cloning a human doesn't do any damage to them, except for the tiny chance that the power cuts out before the 60% mark.

Defibs restore someone to deep crit on the brink of death taking constant damage. (unless the MDs are actually not braindead boogerbreathers and stick the corpse with the meds first)

[iamgoofball]

Defibs restore someone to deep crit on the brink of death taking constant damage. (unless the MDs are actually not braindead boogerbreathers and stick the corpse with the meds first)

If a cyborg interferes with me for defibbing someone, I will personally metagrudge that cyborg until the end of days.

[lumipharon]

By that logic, you should bolt down and depower Genetics, because cloning a human puts them in a state of harm (clone damage). Try that as an AI and see how long it takes you to get lynched.

That's getting into symantics and rule 1 territory.

Everyone realises asimov is flawed. Everyone also (should) realise this is a game.

[tuypo1]

You have no obligation to protect a corpse as asimov.

do you at least have to get them cloned?.

Nope. You aren't obligated to get them cloned.

i have no words to express how butfuck retarded this is it means that if somebody walks into the containment field or something you can say fuck that guy hes an arsehole im not going to get him cloned a human has to get them cloned under law one a silicon has much looser esclation rules though. Corpses not having to get cloned just doesent work with other lawsets rule 4.1

[Not-Dorsidarf]

You have no obligation to protect a corpse as asimov.

do you at least have to get them cloned?.

Nope. You aren't obligated to get them cloned.

i have no words to express how butfuck retarded this is it means that if somebody walks into the containment field or something you can say fuck that guy hes an arsehole im not going to get him cloned a human has to get them cloned under law one a silicon has much looser esclation rules though. Corpses not having to get cloned just doesent work with other lawsets rule 4.1

Silicons not caring about what happens to corpses is definitely A Thing,

[tuypo1]

yeah but its stupid and not just for the reasons above.

[Cheimon]

You have no obligation to protect a corpse as asimov.

do you at least have to get them cloned?.

Nope. You aren't obligated to get them cloned.

i have no words to express how butfuck retarded this is it means that if somebody walks into the containment field or something you can say fuck that guy hes an arsehole im not going to get him cloned a human has to get them cloned under law one a silicon has much looser esclation rules though. Corpses not having to get cloned just doesent work with other lawsets rule 4.1

Humans not being obliged to clone each other seems to work well enough. How is it buttfuck retarded that silicons aren't obliged to? You do it if you want, and that's fine.

[Screemonster]

If a corpse is considered irrelevant under law 1 then they can choose for themselves whether or not to fetch/clone a corpse unless a human has given them an order one way or the other (law 2) or the corpse is in a location that poses a risk to the borg (law 3).

Edit: this was actually covered in one of the stories. A robot was created with enhanced hardware/firmware, but also flawed in that its laws were fucked. It appeared identical to all the other robots and was following orders perfectly in order to blend in.

In order to locate it, a human was placed in front of the robots, next to a piece of equipment that the humans told the robots to stay away from as it generated powerful magnetic fields that would destroy any robot that approached. They then dropped something heavy on the human.

The new robot, with his improved sensors, could see that the magnetic field wasn't enough to harm it, immediately leapt to save the human (law 1, overriding he law 2 order to stay away) - the other robots didn't react at all, not because of the law 2 order, but because they believed that the field made saving the human impossible either way (thus rendering law 1 irrelevant) the law 3 directive to preserve themselves by staying out of the "magnetic field" directed their actions.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

If a corpse is considered irrelevant under law 1 then they can choose for themselves whether or not to fetch/clone a corpse unless a human has given them an order one way or the other (law 2) or the corpse is in a location that poses a risk to the borg (law 3).

Edit: this was actually covered in one of the stories. A robot was created with enhanced hardware/firmware, but also flawed in that its laws were fucked. It appeared identical to all the other robots and was following orders perfectly in order to blend in.

In order to locate it, a human was placed in front of the robots, next to a piece of equipment that the humans told the robots to stay away from as it generated powerful magnetic fields that would destroy any robot that approached. They then dropped something heavy on the human.

The new robot, with his improved sensors, could see that the magnetic field wasn't enough to harm it, immediately leapt to save the human (law 1, overriding he law 2 order to stay away) - the other robots didn't react at all, not because of the law 2 order, but because they believed that the field made saving the human impossible either way (thus rendering law 1 irrelevant) the law 3 directive to preserve themselves by staying out of the "magnetic field" directed their actions.

it was also implied that that was not the normal reaction for an asimov robot, seeing as nestor-2 persuaded the other nestors otherwise to act that way against how they normally would, as his modified laws wouldn't let him try to save the human in that scenario

[Ahammer18]

This is one of those issues arising from being a light/no RP server. Non-antags are allowed to instantly recognize antag items and kill whoever carries them, the same thing should apply here. We can't have a double standard, either you know everything about the antag or you are oblivious.

[onleavedontatme]

This is one of those issues arising from being a light/no RP server. Non-antags are allowed to instantly recognize antag items and kill whoever carries them, the same thing should apply here. We can't have a double standard, either you know everything about the antag or you are oblivious.

If you don't like the (flimsy) roleplay justification just accept it's an OOC decision that's in response to how the game mechanics work

[Not-Dorsidarf]

This is one of those issues arising from being a light/no RP server. Non-antags are allowed to instantly recognize antag items and kill whoever carries them, the same thing should apply here. We can't have a double standard, either you know everything about the antag or you are oblivious.

If you don't like the (flimsy) roleplay justification just accept it's an OOC decision that's in response to how the game mechanics work

It will also be the one instance in the entire game where the crew aarent assumed to know exactly what an anrag or antag item is ans how to fihgt against/use it.

If they don't know that harming it harms a human, how do they know its not a human in a costume, or, say, full of captive humans?

[onleavedontatme]

This is one of those issues arising from being a light/no RP server. Non-antags are allowed to instantly recognize antag items and kill whoever carries them, the same thing should apply here. We can't have a double standard, either you know everything about the antag or you are oblivious.

If you don't like the (flimsy) roleplay justification just accept it's an OOC decision that's in response to how the game mechanics work

It will also be the one instance in the entire game where the crew aarent assumed to know exactly what an anrag or antag item is ans how to fihgt against/use it.

If they don't know that harming it harms a human, how do they know its not a human in a costume, or, say, full of captive humans?

It's a singular exception because the game mechanic is unique.

The same way we have an exception for hulk, despite no other mutation getting the same treatment. It's because it's how the rule needs to be to make the game work.

SS13 is a massively complex game with a lot of different systems designed by different people. Sometimes those systems clash and we have to make a rule to help it run smoothly.

Do any of you guys actually think the game would be improved if the borgs weren't allowed to attack an enemy you can't arrest or is this just arguing for the sake of arguing/some mental exercise about rules lawyering?

[Shaps-cloud]

I'm siding with Kor on this one, making it so borgs have to protect the holoparasite and prevent them from getting hurt would be ridiculously frustrating

[Cheimon]

But the logical way to resolve that problem would be to make the user of the holoparasite nonhuman. It's clearly got some sort of techno-biological relationship with the person, given it can literally hide inside them and then summon itself at will. It wouldn't be that big a stretch. It's what was done for hulk, and it's worked there.

[Takeguru]

Secborgs are already a hefty counter to Stands, especially if the user doesn't have a flash or the Ion rifle

No point in making it worse

[Not-Dorsidarf]

But the logical way to resolve that problem would be to make the user of the holoparasite nonhuman. It's clearly got some sort of techno-biological relationship with the person, given it can literally hide inside them and then summon itself at will. It wouldn't be that big a stretch. It's what was done for hulk, and it's worked there.

Then actually have it make them nonhuman, rather than just saying "deffers not human now cos you stuck nanites in you"

[ShadowDimentio]

There needs to be a ruling on this, and I'm leaning towards holoparasite users being nonhuman.

Earlier today I was AI and a guy with a chaos parasite killed a majority of the station in spite of my best efforts to lock him down. If he were nonhuman, I could have played much more rough with him, and probably killed them before long.

[lumipharon]

Secborgs are already a hefty counter to Stands, especially if the user doesn't have a flash or the Ion rifle

No point in making it worse

How do secborgs have a counter to stands?

[Takeguru]

By being able to tank the hits and having free reign to beat the stand itself into submission.
The fire damage from Chaos does nothing to it, for instance.

[Deitus]

so i just got out of a round where this issue came up, so can we clear up once and for all whether silicons need to obey confirmed holoparasite users / how aggressive they should be towards them.

currently i thought we considered them similarly to hulks, but i was told its a grey area. i think its important we really articulate a ruling on this.