Atmo: Lag Edition

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:26 am #118176

What does the Atmospherics department, and atmo in general, offer the game aside from being the biggest contributor to in game lag?

Plasma flooding for the occasional Malf AI.

My proposal is to go for the Goonstation route and gut Atmo from the game and simply gut the atmo area from the station and look to implementing Goonstation's 'air generators' that slowly build up air in areas and that they hock up from maintenance.

Its doable and would go a long way in cutting off the atmo system which really contributes to the bad lag/stutter movement the game has.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:47 am #118181

Is it possible to turn off atmos for a round? If so, what are the effects?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:11 am #118209

invisty wrote:Is it possible to turn off atmos for a round? If so, what are the effects?

Yes.
Fire will burn infinitely in the spot it starts, and doesn't spread. You're fine as long as you dont walk into the fire tile.
Hull breaches do nothing, as no air will leave. Just don't stand in the hole in the floor and you're fine.
Can leave all external doors open for easy access, or just smash the windows.
Canisters, scrubbers, and vents do essentially nothing.
Toxins bombs can no longer be made. Well, maybe. I'm not sure how big the boom is on room temperature plasma and oxygen, if any.
The most deadly thing would probably be a napalm grenade and even soda can IEDs because they'll drop fire hotspots in a wide area and they won't ever go away.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:41 am #118215

Is there a way to simplify the existing system to reduce lag rather than gutting the core features it provides?

Like what causes the most server load from atmos? Just updates on the tick?

JackHunt · Post by **JackHunt** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:10 pm #118239

I'd say atmos goes a long way towards a few thematic goals. Without atmos there really isn't much lifesupport for a space station and hull breaches and the like don't seem super threatening. It also provides one of Malf's biggest tool and a great micromanaging tool for dealing with common disasters (fires, breaches).

blobbernaut · Post by **blobbernaut** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:32 pm #118295

yes it is needed because it's a huge part of the game and the most intricate and unique system on the station.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:37 pm #118297

See, I was under the impression this was an atmospherics simulator

duncathan · Post by **duncathan** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:48 pm #118300

Steelpoint, you've got a fundamental misunderstanding of how atmos works.
Code-wise, atmos can be split into three different parts. Those are environmental atmos (LINDA), pipenets (pipes and machinery), and gas mixtures. Gas mixtures are used by pipenets, environmental atmos, bombs, air tanks, breathing... Anything to do with atmos involves gas mixtures in some way.

You are suggesting we be rid of pipenets, under the pretense that they cause too much lag for what they offer in terms of gameplay; in fact, under the pretense that they are the single largest contributor to lag in the game.
That would be incorrect.
What really causes lag is ENVIRONMENTAL atmos. The most resource intensive procs by far in an average situation are all caused by LINDA, with a wee little bit of gas mixture proc calls by stuff other than LINDA. We're not getting rid of LINDA, period.

There is one major situation in which pipenets cause lag, and that is singuloose. However, we're fixing singulag pretty regularly. It's not too much of a stretch to say that in the near future we'll be able to fix pipenets causing loads of singulag.

This whole suggestion is pointless.

Aranclanos · Post by **Aranclanos** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:53 pm #118301

sorry bud, but dunc is on point, pipes are fine lag-wise. It's the environmental air the one to blame.

Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:57 pm

I do think gutting the pipenets (slightly or entirely, I haven't thought about it too much) would be good to make reconstruction of bombed areas less of a hassle and atmospherics itself easier to use, but those are gameplay reasons, not optimization ones. Pipesnets aren't really that bad lagwise. The code for them is still not great in any way, but whatever.

duncathan · Post by **duncathan** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:47 pm #118311

MisterPerson wrote:The code for them is still not great in any way, but whatever.

You're gonna make me cry

e: what specifically is bad about their code besides a little bit of colon use (it happens like once iirc)

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:23 pm #118312

This game started out as a Atmospheric Simulator, cutting that feature is a no-no from me. Traditions and stuff. Also the fact that we're in space, in fact I'd support a more deadly atmos system.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:48 pm #118318

PostThis post was deleted by MisterPerson on Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:57 pm.
Reason: Don't be a hostile douchebag

Sorry but saying atmos brings no value and should be removed is more hostile and douchebag than anything I said.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:01 pm #118320

Having negative opinions on a piece of video game code is hostile and douchey? Thank goodness the scott thought police are here to keep me safe from steelpoints opinions

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:08 pm #118322

Don't kid yourselves, it was obviously for the "Mcfucking kill yourself" comment.

Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:18 pm

Steelpoint wrote:What does the Atmospherics department, and atmo in general, offer the game aside from being the biggest contributor to in game lag?

Plasma flooding for the occasional Malf AI.

steelpoint are you drunk

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:19 pm #118329

Steelpoint, champ, are you banned from goon or something? Why not just go play there?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:21 pm #118331

whodaloo wrote:Steelpoint, champ, are you banned from goon or something? Why not just go play there?

no security guns

Aloraydrel · Post by **Aloraydrel** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:36 pm #118335

What is this?
Am I being rused?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:44 am #118350

Wyzack wrote:Having negative opinions on a piece of video game code is hostile and douchey? Thank goodness the scott thought police are here to keep me safe from steelpoints opinions

I am not the one deleting posts.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:46 am #118352

My point is calm the fuck down, he is literally voicing opinions on a piece of code.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:57 am #118354

And I am voicing my opinions about his opinions. I don't even care that he made wrong assumptions about the code, atmos is fun and that is value. Just because he doesn't play atmos, that doesn't mean it's not fun for other people.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:27 am #118417

tbh atmos needs more uses that arent "kill everyone"

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:29 am #118418

I've been talking with some people in game and what not and its generally seen that the biggest drain on game resources is atmospherics, I'm simply stating how the atmo departments biggest claim to fame is how it can kill everyone for the occasional malf AI.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:38 am #118419

yes, what is generally seen as the largest drain on resources is obviously true, right? because popular opinion determines what causes lag and what doesnt?

Post by **Jacquerel** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:42 am #118421

The atmos department and the atmos system are not the same thing and it's silly to say that one is worthless because of the other.
Being an atmos technician is pretty boring and offers little of value except, as you said, flooding the station with plasma. The atmos system on the other hand is an extremely important core game mechanic.
This game simply wouldn't be nearly as good without air mechanics, deadliness of vacuum, and fires. The atmos system is one of the key reasons SS13 clawed itself to the top of a pile of multitudes of RP/Murder games back when people used BYOND for anything that wasn't SS13, and it's going to stay forever.

Aranclanos · Post by **Aranclanos** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:46 pm #118443

>I've been talking with some people in game and what not and its generally seen that the biggest drain on game
WHO IS THIS MAGICAL 'SOME PEOPLE', I MUST MEET THEM

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:10 pm #118448

LINDA adds so much atmosphere (pun fucking intended) to the rounds... why would you not want to have it.
Playing an atmos tech can be a lot of fun, you just to have a knack for silly constructions and interest in the atmos system itself. Pipe reconstruction after bombings isn't a chore - it's your job and thanks to the fucking retarded and incomprehensible initial pipe layout you pretty much have to come up with a new design every time. Sure, your only apparent MO while antag is flooding the station with plasma. Then again, toxin's only MO is bombings. Engineering only has singulo. Genetics has only hulk rampages. Saying that atmos is only good for one thing is a bit of a moot point.
Atmosia isn't for everyone, much like I will never get into botany or chemistry. Most if not all people wanting to remove atmos don't even play atmos - are they entitled to say 'atmos doesn't add anything, remove now'?
We had a few months were stuff like bombs and singulo didn't lag at all - maybe we will get back to that point again. That said, the game lags even when there's no atmos alarms at all going off.... so meh.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:25 pm #118450

I still feel like we should search for some other creative things atmos techs can do, really. it sometimes feels like all you can do is proof atmos against subversion, but the only people capable of subverting atmos are you and the AI.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:23 pm #118456

Proofing atmos againt subversion isn't a hard thing to do. Atmos Techs are supposed to optimize oxygen distribution and waste treatment and that goes beyond just increasing pump pressure to max. They can also work the turbine engine and when antags they can flood the station with bad gas. This also takes knowledge/experience, it's not just turning on the plasma pump.

Atmos techs have more shit to do than engineers.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:43 pm #118459

Miauw wrote:I still feel like we should search for some other creative things atmos techs can do, really. it sometimes feels like all you can do is proof atmos against subversion, but the only people capable of subverting atmos are you and the AI.

Anybody with an emag or a toolbelt can get into atmos and turn on a pump. Or if they want to go the extra mile - wrench it up and place a straight pipe into distro.

Hell atmos as a job is currently the best its ever been with the RPD and transit tubes.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:48 am #118531

Scott wrote:Proofing atmos againt subversion isn't a hard thing to do. Atmos Techs are supposed to optimize oxygen distribution and waste treatment and that goes beyond just increasing pump pressure to max. They can also work the turbine engine and when antags they can flood the station with bad gas. This also takes knowledge/experience, it's not just turning on the plasma pump.

Atmos techs have more shit to do than engineers.

i actually had an idea to add some randomly spawned gas canisters to maint and a few mixing rooms in maint, so people that arent atmos techs can use those for some mayhem.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:22 am #118533

Miauw wrote:i actually had an idea to add some randomly spawned gas canisters to maint and a few mixing rooms in maint, so people that arent atmos techs can use those for some mayhem.

I miss the old incinerator room. Why the fuck was that taken out again? I used to be able to make singletank bombs and death cans in there as a greyshirt.

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:31 pm #118536

Combine Atmos Tech with Botanist and Atmospherics with Hydroponics, and require plants to recycle air.

Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:45 pm

Saegrimr wrote:
Miauw wrote:i actually had an idea to add some randomly spawned gas canisters to maint and a few mixing rooms in maint, so people that arent atmos techs can use those for some mayhem.
I miss the old incinerator room. Why the fuck was that taken out again? I used to be able to make singletank bombs and death cans in there as a greyshirt.

because when paprika added the turbine, he figured we didn't need it anymore (???)

Sweaterkittens · Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:45 am

Saegrimr wrote: I miss the old incinerator room. Why the fuck was that taken out again?

Saegrimr wrote: I used to be able to make singletank bombs and death cans in there as a greyshirt.

I'm guessing that's why, given the amount of shitler greyshirts we have on this server. I certainly don't want them having access to bombs and the ability to ruin atmospherics from roundstart.

More on topic, I love atmospherics, and as you were saying, with the RPD and transit tubes you have PLENTY to do. Atmos is far from optimized at roundstart, and you can spend (and I have) the entire round in there fixing things up and improving the system. Steelpoint, if you think atmos should be removed because there's not enough you can do with it, perhaps we should make more things that it could be utilized for rather than remove atmos altogether. Much in the same way that people have requested that toxins have more non-antag options, because removing altogether isn't really in the spirit of SS13 (being a plasma research station and all).

Post by **oranges** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:14 am #118878

if you look at the profile linda procs tend to top it, so it's not a wrong statement to make

the issue is that ss13 without linda or atmos just doesn't feel like ss13 at all.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Things to do as atmos tech:

Useful:
At roundstart, plumb the airmix mixer straight into Distro and set to 20/80 instead of 80/20. This not only makes plasma fires more fun for the family, but means breaches start suffocating people less, because the airmix only goes down to less than 16kpa of O2 once there's 20kpa of air, rather than about 60kpa.
Plumb the plasma tank into a gas mixer (not the mix tank, it gives the AI a heart attack) and pipe it into the turbine to generate power and hide the disk in.
Fix breaches (duuuuur)
Fight fires
Metalfoam your way into the AI core when it goes rogue
use the backpack's metal foam as a poor-man's vent welding (now without lighting fires, and infinite supply!)
Kill constructs with that monstrous axe
kill condoms with that monstrous axe
resupply toxins if they manage to use all their plasma canisters without self-destructing
set air alarms to scrub
disposals traps/rides
transport tube shuttles

Useless:
Build a toxins test chamber
Pipe art
Make a panic room in space and plumb it into the oxygen tank
Disposal traps/rides
try and assassinate poly using only the atmos system
be lynched when the No2 makes it to the bar instead

Compare this to, say, the librarian

Useful stuff:
1)Provide a hiding place for contraband
2)Stun rogue borgs sometimes

Useless stuff:
Dispense books
Read porno over radio.
Start a cult on Nar'Sue in your backroom

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Things to do as atmos tech:

Useful:
At roundstart, plumb the airmix mixer straight into Distro and set to 20/80 instead of 80/20. This not only makes plasma fires more fun for the family, but means breaches start suffocating people less, because the airmix only goes down to less than 16kpa of O2 once there's 20kpa of air, rather than about 60kpa. Best of all, it gives you a sodding great tank of clean air to flush the pipes with if some crackhead contaminates the oxygen tanks with filter fun.
Plumb the plasma tank into a gas mixer (not the mix tank, it gives the AI a heart attack) and pipe it into the turbine to generate power and hide the disk in.
Fix breaches (duuuuur)
Fight fires
Metalfoam your way into the AI core when it goes rogue
use the backpack's metal foam as a poor-man's vent welding (now without lighting fires, and infinite supply!)
Kill constructs with that monstrous axe
kill condoms with that monstrous axe
resupply toxins if they manage to use all their plasma canisters without self-destructing
set air alarms to scrub
disposals traps/rides
transport tube shuttles

Useless:
Build a toxins test chamber
Pipe art
Make a panic room in space and plumb it into the oxygen tank
Disposal traps/rides
try and assassinate poly using only the atmos system
be lynched when the No2 makes it to the bar instead

Compare this to, say, the librarian

Useful stuff:
1)Provide a hiding place for contraband
2)Stun rogue borgs sometimes

Useless stuff:
Dispense books
Read porno over radio.
Start a cult on Nar'Sue in your backroom

Post by **oranges** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:18 pm #118912

he quoted his own post, that absolute madman

Post by **oranges** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:19 pm #118913

oranges wrote:he quoted his own post, that absolute madman

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:17 pm #119127

is this a dank new meme

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:17 pm #119128

Miauw wrote:is this a dank new meme

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:20 am #119211

Scott wrote:Whoa

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:20 am #119212

Post by **Jacquerel** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:22 am #119304

Jacquerel wrote:
Jacquerel wrote:is this a dank new meme

Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:39 pm

Let's get back on topic now

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:01 pm #119487

I think one of the problems with the current atmos system is that it tries to be way too accurate. If somehow accuracy could be sacrificed for performance the whole deal would be a lot better.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:05 pm #119489

duncathan wrote:Steelpoint, you've got a fundamental misunderstanding of how atmos works.

I'm convinced that he's not even playing the same game as the rest of us by this point