Validkilling anyone with a harmful disease/organ

[Oldman Robustin]

This issue started off as a conversation between me and Vekter. I had just been murdered by a chemist with a bottle of phlog after I vomitted out a baby slime in escape. For the record, these slimes were all like the default xenobio slimes. They didn't start off hostile, weren't aggressive, they would occasionally start feeding on a live person nearby but could be shoved off/frozen to death just as easily as you can do the same with a single starter baby in xenobio.

I ahelped Vekter and he gave me a response along the lines of "are you really complaining that someone murdered you as an antag?". After discussing it for a few minutes he changed his reasoning to more of a harm rationale instead of an "all abductees are validkills" rationale (another abductee was spraying blood out of his skin but wasn't harmful, Vekter said that he wasn't valid). That rationale was that anyone with a harmful disease can be killed by anyone else. If you have the BEEEEES disease, or potentially any harmful disease/alien organ, you can be murdered on the spot by any crewmember. If I'm the bartender and I see the HoS burp up some bees outside the brig, I can stroll right up to him and shotgun him in the face and cave his skull in because those bees are harmful and I shouldn't have to tolerate his stupid disease that could end up getting me killed at some point.

My stance was that phlogging (pretty much a guaranteed lethal kill, 20+ fire extinguisher sprays wont put out the fire) someone for burping up a slime every 3-4 minutes was not valid, Vekter disagreed.

[Scones]

In this case, Vekter was probably in the wrong, considering that's a pretty harmless organ.

In general however if someone is going around infecting people or doing stupid crazy abductor bullshit and killing them would help stem the spread, by all means go for it. Just bear in mind not to be a dick (Destroying the body or hiding it afterwards)

I guess if the slimes are actually acting up and killing you is the only solution it's a gray area

[Ergovisavi]

If you, as an antagonist, dragged out a bunch of slimes from Xenobio, you would've been valid. The only method of stopping you from flooding the station with slimes that are hostile to humans is to murder you.

In the end, the shuttle ended up full of slimes. That were attacking people.

[Saegrimr]

The implants DO make you an antag though. Since most of them are RP oriented goals its kind of vague what the actual lines here are, and I haven't been told how these situations are to be handled.

[whodaloo]

If this is the round I'm thinking of, his objective would've been "Build a corpse collection, but don't kill anyone to do it".

[rdght91]

It should be more like how security deals with non-antag criminals- they can make themselves valid by how they act but shouldn't be automatically so.

[Vekter]

Y'know, you can post policy discussions and not make it sound like an admin complaint.

I made a ruling based on the round at the time. He was puking slimes in the vicinity of groups of players, which were then glomping them and just generally being annoying. Might not have been the best judgement call, but I stand by it.

[lumipharon]

Essentially he had a disease that made him vomit slimes. Unless he was actively trying to kill people with his vomit slimes, wouldn't the logical thing be to like, HELP him, rather then set him on fire and torch him like a witch?

[Ergovisavi]

You can't remove the ayylien organs from them. And it's not a disease, filling them with reagents won't cause the problem to go away.

The cure is death.

[lumipharon]

I don't mean literally a code disease.

A believable thing to do would be
A:run away from the crazy slime pooper
B: Quarantine and try fix them

where as the sybil thing to do is
A: Valid is fast as physically possible

[Oldman Robustin]

If you, as an antagonist, dragged out a bunch of slimes from Xenobio, you would've been valid. The only method of stopping you from flooding the station with slimes that are hostile to humans is to murder you.

In the end, the shuttle ended up full of slimes. That were attacking people.

I was murdered before the shuttle even showed up, and I had barfed maybe 4 slimes through the entire round and the other 3 were lost to nukeop shenanigans or killed by passing players.

These slimes weren't the angry hostile kind that glomp/shock you and can rapidly dunk your healthbar, they will, at worst, "feed" on nearby persons when they get hungry and slowly drain their HP until they get resisted/disarmed/fire extinguisher-ed.

There was no glomping either Vektor, my (incomplete) knowledge of slimes is this: You have two ways to hurt people, glomping and feeding. When player controlled you glomp by clicking someone whereas feed is an "ability" that will latch you onto the adjacent target you select and slowly drain them for nutrients.

Glomping is what lets hostile slimes fuck you up fast, feeding isn't lethal unless you just go AFK and nobody intervenes.

There was also 0 effort to communicate with me. A single statement like "get out of here, go take a pod and use a fire extinguisher" or anything "Leave or I'm going to kill you". Instead I barfed out one slime in escape and then got a phlog bottle to the face which promptly lit 6-7 different people on fire as I died in escape. I guarantee you that fire did far more damage than a single grey baby slime could have done. This was also the same chemist who used a lube spray for the nukeops which ended up slipping people into a hull breach after the flops minibombed the area (yes the lube was sprayed before the hull breach but lube is still a really shitty way to fight nukeops when the situation is still under control and given that crew outnumber ops like 6:1, lube all over the area above the bridge is inevitably going to fuck up more crew than awwwperatives.

But going back to my original example, what is the principle behind this, beesease is far more dangerous since bees have a super toxic sting and are immediately hostile and much faster than a hungry slime... can a sec officer grab a medhud and just start field executions on everyone with a sick face?

Apparently there's no cure for the ayyylien organs but realistically you can just stuff someone in a corner of the shuttle and spray them with a fire extinguisher every 3-4 minutes and they're harmless, tossing a Phlog "will burn you to death, and then burn you to death again if someone patches and defibs you" beaker as a vigilante chemist with no warning just feels like they stepped past a line in our policy.

[Arete]

The whole reasoning behind antags being valid is that because they're allowed to do anything to you, it's only fair for you to be allowed to do anything to them. Being given an alien organ gives you an antag objective and frees you to do whatever you want to the crew, so it's not exactly sporting for the crew to be forced to use kid gloves by the policy.

Just embrace your new existence as a freak of nature and be ready to fight for your life.

[Malkevin]

>I was vomiting slimes that latch onto people and drain the life straight out of them.

Yeah.. that totally sounds not harmful.


Reminder that the current policy on antags is that they are always valid, even the 'friendly' ones, because we have no idea what your objectives and your true intentions are.

If the only cure for a condition is death and cloning then death and cloning is the only logical conclusion - sounds more like a coding problem to me if there's no way to remove ayylium organs.

[Oldman Robustin]

I could've sworn we had a policy last time I was here that was pretty clear about not getting free murders against anyone with antag status. I mean I copped a fucking powergaming ban from Brotemis when I unstable mutagen'd a "friendly" wizard that was asking us to hand over a crew member to him, and I specifically remember threads stating that you can't murder someone just because they emagged a non-critical door.

Let's boil this down to specifics:

1) HoS has a BEESEASE and there's no sign of a cure coming, can I stunprod and murder him to stop him from belching bees?

2) Abductee is spraying blood from his skin, kinda gross but otherwise harmless, but my metaknowledge tells me he's an antag, can I chase him down and apply a fire extinguisher to his skull until dead?


Is this a "harm containment" policy or an "all antags can be freely murdered" policy? Or both?

[Saegrimr]

Is this a "harm containment" policy or an "all antags can be freely murdered" policy? Or both?

Welcome to tgstation, good luck.