Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:25 pm #107603

Bottom post of the previous page:

You people need a bit more tact. If your idea of getting what you want is to shout each other down with your opinions and insults and have a popularity contest to be the determining factor in resolution, the net result will be undoubtedly negative.

It doesn't matter how well thought out your viewpoint is, and there are some really good, well-thought out discussions going on here.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:48 pm #107606

invisty wrote:You people need a bit more tact. If your idea of getting what you want is to shout each other down with your opinions and insults and have a popularity contest to be the determining factor in resolution, the net result will be undoubtedly negative.

It doesn't matter how well thought out your viewpoint is, and there are some really good, well-thought out discussions going on here.

They're screaming at a brick wall. I understand where you're coming from, but the reason they feel the way they do is because they've attempted to give constructive feedback, and immediately shut down.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:41 pm #107618

After robustin tried every other method of communication and been shut down. he's entitled to some screaming.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:54 pm #107620

Steelpoint wrote:Can we stop shitposting in a thinly veiled attempt in getting this thread locked?

I'm not one for conspiracy theories but it seems a lot of the higher up coders are just shitposting in this thread, if I did not know better I would attribute malicious attempt behind those posts.

Or because the thread is pointlessly cucked!

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:06 pm #107621

All I'm getting out of this thread is that Oldman is pretty much right. Can't form a counter argument so will shitpost instead is far from a great idea of getting ones point across.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:07 pm #107622

Did you read the OP?

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:33 pm #107627

Scott wrote:Did you read the OP?

I sure didn't.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:44 am #107642

Cheridan wrote:
Scott wrote:Did you read the OP?
I sure didn't.

This is why people don't like you.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:51 am #107645

Well I think everyone's stance is perfectly clear by now.

The question now is what is going to be done.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:04 am #107649

It's kind of sad that I can't be arsed to read this whole thread, because ForcefulCJS is just a more vitriolic dezzmont.

It's an open codebase that you are capable of contributing to. If people like the OP spent half the time they did writing these rants learning how to code for the game they seem so concerned about, things would not only be different but they would have a lot more room to complain.

I don't think specific incidents of "coder took liberties as a contributor/authority within the codebase" are reason to make extreme rage threads and then never try to fix the problem yourself

Why don't you guys just make and maintain your own fork at this point? Oldmanstation or whatever, you can PR all the balance changes you'd like, who knows, maybe you could convince MSO to swap to it.

Doing nothing but shitpost on the forums gives you almost no room to complain.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:07 am #107651

Scones wrote:It's kind of sad that I can't be arsed to read this whole thread, because ForcefulCJS is just a more vitriolic dezzmont.

It's an open codebase that you are capable of contributing to. If people like the OP spent half the time they did writing these rants learning how to code for the game they seem so concerned about, things would not only be different but they would have a lot more room to complain.

I don't think specific incidents of "coder took liberties as a contributor/authority within the codebase" are reason to make extreme rage threads and then never try to fix the problem yourself

Why don't you guys just make and maintain your own fork at this point? Oldmanstation or whatever, you can PR all the balance changes you'd like, who knows, maybe you could convince MSO to swap to it.

Doing nothing but shitpost on the forums gives you almost no room to complain.

This argument holds zero water when we're talking about fixes to non issueshttps://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6925 that no one asked for or likes, and after 2 months of refusing to admit that literally every person saying it was dumb may be right, makes a 'fix' that still leaves ops fucked https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/8107, or PR's that get made by 'people like the OP', with large amounts of support, only to get immediately shut down by cheri https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10702.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:14 am #107653

Have you actually tried to contribute, or are you just going to cling on to Steelpoint's closed PR forever now?

Incomptinence · Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:34 am

Well Lumi has reported several bugs on the git in the proper fashion (as has oldman) but hey keep beating the players worthless until they get a merged pull dead horse.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:39 am #107657

Learn2code is the biggest crock of shit, How about you guys learn2balance?
And the steelpoint fight is a prime example of knowing coding not getting past the problem being pointed out here.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:45 am #107659

CPTANT wrote:Well I think everyone's stance is perfectly clear by now.

The question now is what is going to be done.

Nothing will change until people realise that the situation is based on a flawed premise. The problem isn't contributors making changes on a whim and denying feedback, the problem is a complete failure to relate to your fellow human being, as evidenced by this entire thread. Let's go back to the OP, and imagine we're Cheridan reading it. Assume that we, as Cheridan, are reasonably happy in our world view. How do we react to this criticism? Do we magically come around to CJS's point of view? He hasn't related at all to our world view in his post, and (not imposing upon Cheridan's thoughts), CJS probably seems like a noisy little upstart who never contributed anything and doesn't know anything about game development ((No insult meant, CJS)). Thus, can we be surprised to see that Cheridan responds with "wow you sure do say a lot of things"? No, honestly, we can't. Because that's the level of expectation we've set for the behaviour of contributors. CJS is right in being upset with Cheridan's response, and I think he is totally in the right to do so. Unfortunately, he's put himself on the back foot from the start, and only succeeds in promoting the status quo of resolving problems by conflict instead of mature discussion and negotiation.

If people intend to improve the quality of coderbus, it isn't going to be achieved by removing people from power when their world-view doesn't fit your own. They will simply be replaced by another person with different opinions - and thus the problem continues forever. If you want to improve the quality of coderbus, everyone needs to be more willing to take criticism and judgement, and they need to be more thoughtful in offering criticism and judgement.

If you don't believe me, ask yourself who the best contributors to tgstation are, and consider how they behave when it comes to offering and receiving criticism and ideas.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:48 am #107660

I think the people siding with Cheridan don't quite understand what we want. We don't want him to implement every change we want. All we want is communication. No matter how you look at it, Cheridan's attitude is incredibly shitty. He's acting like a spoiled 8 year old.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:50 am #107661

Luke Cox wrote:I think the people siding with Cheridan don't quite understand what we want. We don't want him to implement every change we want. All we want is communication. No matter how you look at it, Cheridan's attitude is incredibly shitty. He's acting like a spoiled 8 year old.

Scott wrote:Have you actually tried to contribute, or are you just going to cling on to Steelpoint's closed PR forever now?

I'm sure a lot of us would love to, but we're afraid that we'll get shut down if we do anything Cheridan disagrees with.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:52 am #107662

invisty wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Well I think everyone's stance is perfectly clear by now.

The question now is what is going to be done.
Nothing will change until people realise that the situation is based on a flawed premise. The problem isn't contributors making changes on a whim and denying feedback, the problem is a complete failure to relate to your fellow human being, as evidenced by this entire thread. Let's go back to the OP, and imagine we're Cheridan reading it. Assume that we, as Cheridan, are reasonably happy in our world view. How do we react to this criticism? Do we magically come around to CJS's point of view? He hasn't related at all to our world view in his post, and (not imposing upon Cheridan's thoughts), CJS probably seems like a noisy little upstart who never contributed anything and doesn't know anything about game development ((No insult meant, CJS)). Thus, can we be surprised to see that Cheridan responds with "wow you sure do say a lot of things"? No, honestly, we can't. Because that's the level of expectation we've set for the behaviour of contributors. CJS is right in being upset with Cheridan's response, and I think he is totally in the right to do so. Unfortunately, he's put himself on the back foot from the start, and only succeeds in promoting the status quo of resolving problems by conflict instead of mature discussion and negotiation.

If people intend to improve the quality of coderbus, it isn't going to be achieved by removing people from power when their world-view doesn't fit your own. They will simply be replaced by another person with different opinions - and thus the problem continues forever. If you want to improve the quality of coderbus, everyone needs to be more willing to take criticism and judgement, and they need to be more thoughtful in offering criticism and judgement.

If you don't believe me, ask yourself who the best contributors to tgstation are, and consider how they behave when it comes to offering and receiving criticism and ideas.

This thread doesn't exist in isolation. Some guy randomly coming out of nowhere and calling you a cunt is not the same as repeated efforts across multiple platforms getting snubbed, ignored or responded to with smugness or shitty memes.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:02 am #107664

To be clear, lumi, I'm not assuming it's some sort of one off isolated event. I myself recently had a go at trying to post carefully considered criticism on github, only to receive dismissive one-liners from more than one author.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:07 am #107665

invisty wrote:To be clear, lumi, I'm not assuming it's some sort of one off isolated event. I myself recently had a go at trying to post carefully considered criticism on github, only to receive dismissive one-liners from more than one author.

And that is our problem with the way coderbus functions. That is what we want to change.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:08 am #107666

Falamazeer wrote:Learn2code is the biggest crock of shit

Why is this the biggest crock of shit? I want an answer.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:10 am #107668

The more you paint coderbus as an evil exclusive club, the less new people will want to contribute. Then you end up with only jaded people who don't give a shit about what you say coding for the server, making true the lies you keep spouting.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:29 am #107673

iamgoofball wrote:
Falamazeer wrote:Learn2code is the biggest crock of shit
Why is this the biggest crock of shit? I want an answer.

Because it doesn't change the fact that even if they did learn to code and contributed, they would just be shot down by the higher ups if they disagree with anything. Why would anybody even want to get involved with coderbus in its current state?

Scott wrote:The more you paint coderbus as an evil exclusive club, the less new people will want to contribute. Then you end up with only jaded people who don't give a shit about what you say coding for the server, making true the lies you keep spouting.

Then stop fucking doing it.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:30 am #107674

Luke Cox wrote: Because it doesn't change the fact that even if they did learn to code and contributed, they would just be shot down by the higher ups if they disagree with anything. Why would anybody even want to get involved with coderbus in its current state?

This doesn't happen.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:32 am #107675

Scott wrote:
Luke Cox wrote: Because it doesn't change the fact that even if they did learn to code and contributed, they would just be shot down by the higher ups if they disagree with anything. Why would anybody even want to get involved with coderbus in its current state?
This doesn't happen.

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:23 am #107686

It literally just happened.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:36 am #107687

iamgoofball wrote:
Falamazeer wrote:Learn2code is the biggest crock of shit
Why is this the biggest crock of shit? I want an answer.

Because coding does not automatically grant competence in game balance, or even good sense.
You don't have to code to contribute relevant ideas, feedback, or criticism, that's why learn2code is a crock of shit.

It's shifting the blame from yourself back at the person complaining. 'You don't like what I cooked? then learn2cook"
And that's reasonable to a point, that point ends when blatant glaring issues are introduced into the meal for seemingly no good reason at all. In no part of the world can you serve dog shit on a plate and expect gratitude, I don't care if it's free. I might try to eat around the shitty parts if I'm hungry enough, but I'm going to speculate loudly and often about how great a meal it could have been if it weren't for all this salt and speckles of dog shit.

In this context specifically, another good reason is that I don't want to be under a maintainer who makes the playerbase hate me.
Shit like this thread, and his handling of it are why words like "schism" and "Cancer" and even "Out of touch" are applied to you as a whole. It's poking the irritated people and leaning on the coderbus and acting like that smug douche in lethal weapon "diplomatic immunity bwahahahaahahahaa" This is exactly the sort of thing that promotes "us" and "them" mentalities.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:43 am #107702

As I've said before knowing how to code does not automatically grant you intricate knowledge of in game balance and how systems will function.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:44 am #107703

It does grant you the power to make changes.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:54 am #107709

Scott wrote:It does grant you the power to make changes.

That's useless if your changes are really shitty, or the people in charge have a terrible vision of what is and isn't shitty.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:17 am #107711

Code the changes yourself, if you are so great and wise.

callanrockslol · Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:51 am

Scott wrote:Code the changes yourself, if you are so great and wise.

Give me control of the codebase, I will solve all problems.

Konork · Post by **Konork** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:52 am #107718

Scott wrote:Code the changes yourself, if you are so great and wise.

The whole point of this topic is that people have been trying to do that, but have been rejected with barely any chance for discussion.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:22 am #107727

you can always make your own codebase if you don't like the design decisions.

These are the great freedoms that RMS has granted upon to thee with his GNU license, so that they may never live under the yoke of an evil dictator ever again.

Thou shalt be able to read the code freely
Thou shalt be able to change the code freely
Thou shalt be able to copy the code and redistribute the changed version with the freedoms intact.

Go forth ye worthy and carve thine own technical destiny.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:48 am #107728

So you're saying that making an entire new codebase, with accompanying servers and playerbase is more reasonable then asking one person to actually listen to player feedback?

Ok.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:23 am #107734

GO FORTH AND CARVE IT

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:50 am #107754

Welp, in the span of one thread I've gone from being neutral on the coderbus issue to wanting to beat the shit out of them. The criticisms leveled at them regarding terrible communication and utter dismissal of the community have been completely validated in my eyes. Their attitude is utterly disgusting and even if you don't feel that the community needs to be worried. Responding to somebody who accuses you of communicating poorly with "lol go make your own code" is fucking unproductive and outright juvenile. The coderbus is collectively acting like an 8 year old who don't want anybody else playing with their toys, and quite frankly anybody who replied with the aforementioned comment should be fucking embarrassed. If that is the best you can muster, you don't belong in any position of authority.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:17 pm #107759

invisty wrote:To be clear, lumi, I'm not assuming it's some sort of one off isolated event. I myself recently had a go at trying to post carefully considered criticism on github, only to receive dismissive one-liners from more than one author.

I looked through your comment history on Github and the replies you received, but I didn't see anything rude or dismissive. If a comment slighted you please provide a link to me and I'll check it out and talk with the offending parties if needed.

Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:31 pm

Luke Cox wrote:Welp, in the span of one thread I've gone from being neutral on the coderbus issue to wanting to beat the shit out of them. The criticisms leveled at them regarding terrible communication and utter dismissal of the community have been completely validated in my eyes. Their attitude is utterly disgusting and even if you don't feel that the community needs to be worried. Responding to somebody who accuses you of communicating poorly with "lol go make your own code" is fucking unproductive and outright juvenile. The coderbus is collectively acting like an 8 year old who don't want anybody else playing with their toys, and quite frankly anybody who replied with the aforementioned comment should be fucking embarrassed. If that is the best you can muster, you don't belong in any position of authority.

ForcefulCJS is not "the community"

Incomptinence · Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:36 pm

It is understood that Oldman is a singular person, yes. This many know and comprehend. The premise of one CJS is well established after debating his multiplicity earlier.

Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:42 pm

At this point, the only really relevant complaint left seems to be "I was mistreated on Github", which is a reasonable possibility. Does anyone have any specific stories they want to share in that regard?

Oldman Robustin · Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:36 pm

Scones wrote:It's kind of sad that I can't be arsed to read this whole thread, because ForcefulCJS is just a more vitriolic dezzmont.

It's an open codebase that you are capable of contributing to. If people like the OP spent half the time they did writing these rants learning how to code for the game they seem so concerned about, things would not only be different but they would have a lot more room to complain.

I don't think specific incidents of "coder took liberties as a contributor/authority within the codebase" are reason to make extreme rage threads and then never try to fix the problem yourself

Why don't you guys just make and maintain your own fork at this point? Oldmanstation or whatever, you can PR all the balance changes you'd like, who knows, maybe you could convince MSO to swap to it.

Doing nothing but shitpost on the forums gives you almost no room to complain.

I spent a couple years learning Java/C++ a while back and BYOND doesn't seem that hard to learn, I would absolutely be open to learning some except we get to the lovely issues that started this thread.

I have no issues with contributing to coderbus. I have every issue with devoting a material amount of time and energy to learn BYOND code for the sole purpose of contributing here only to realize that the Headcoder, who has outright stated that he ignores everything that I post, and since Steelpoint has often taken my Feedback ideas and put them directly into PR's (which typically result in Cheridan shutting it down and waving his ban hammer around)... well it would be absurd to think I'd waste my time like that.

MisterPerson wrote: ForcefulCJS is not "the community"

We've been over this. My complaint is not "Cheridan closed my PR request by proxy, wah wah, he's a big meanie". It's that I advocated for changes on these forums, made several well thought-out arguments, garnered a consensus among the posters here, and then Cheridan doesn't just push back, he shuts down any hope of change with bans/threats/Github authority while simultaneously demonstration 0 fucking interest in what anyone here has to say. This neuters the effectiveness of this forum and creates another filter between the community and coders when you have to walk up to their front doorstep where Cheridan has absolute authority about what dialogue can take place, and essentially beg them to do something. This isn't an accident, this is the way that Cheridan has consolidated his power and he's more than happy to raise a giant middle finger to this forum as part of that process.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:07 pm #107793

Oldman Robustin wrote: I have no issues with contributing to coderbus. I have every issue with devoting a material amount of time and energy to learn BYOND code for the sole purpose of contributing here only to realize that the Headcoder, who has outright stated that he ignores everything that I post, and since Steelpoint has often taken my Feedback ideas and put them directly into PR's (which typically result in Cheridan shutting it down and waving his ban hammer around)... well it would be absurd to think I'd waste my time like that.

The doors are open to contribute, don't use the excuse of cheridan being stalin to not contribute. If you need any coding help you can get in coderbus and ask for it.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:14 pm #107794

Are you insane or what Scott?

What he's saying is there's not much incentive to help code with the threat of being banned and having your changes closed because the sole headcoder disagree's with them.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:35 pm #107798

Nobody is getting banned if all they want to do is contribute.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:41 pm #107799

How many times do I have to state that I was banned for contributing? Or do I not count?

Not-Dorsidarf · Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:36 pm

This thread appears to be going in circles, over and over and over and over.

How about both Oldman and Cheridan sum up their arguments in one post each, instead of sniping them line-by-line over the people chanting "CODERBUS SUCKS" and "LEARN TO CODE YOURSELF!"?

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:48 pm #107838

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:This thread appears to be going in circles, over and over and over and over.

much like the twenty billion threads that came before it.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:58 pm #107858

Steelpoint you were literally not "banned for contributing", and the fact that you're still pushing that idea after you spoke to me and I directly told you the reasons behind your ban comes off as very disingenuous.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:01 pm #107859

MisterPerson wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:Welp, in the span of one thread I've gone from being neutral on the coderbus issue to wanting to beat the shit out of them. The criticisms leveled at them regarding terrible communication and utter dismissal of the community have been completely validated in my eyes. Their attitude is utterly disgusting and even if you don't feel that the community needs to be worried. Responding to somebody who accuses you of communicating poorly with "lol go make your own code" is fucking unproductive and outright juvenile. The coderbus is collectively acting like an 8 year old who don't want anybody else playing with their toys, and quite frankly anybody who replied with the aforementioned comment should be fucking embarrassed. If that is the best you can muster, you don't belong in any position of authority.
ForcefulCJS is not "the community"

and I'm not a coder and I don't see myself as part of coderbus

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:09 pm #107864

I identify as a coderfluid transpriter.