[Saegrimr] Upcoming Ban 22/07/2015

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:05 am #106333

So,

As I'm talking to Saeg turns out I'm getting a ban of somekind so may as well start writing an appeal early.

Something to do with metagaming as security because I asked someone where they got a pair of mesons and stopping someone stealing a pair of mag boots?

As well as executing someone who tried to attack me in Permabrig when I went to check if they had escaped or not as well as the clown who had tried subverting the AI and who ended up locking the entirety of the known alive security force in the permabrig with no way out.

So yeah.

Will update post in a moment ((with the proper structure or whatever) whenever I actually get this ban.

Byond account and character name: Tornadium- Osborn Auman
Banning admin: Saegrimr
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Sec Perma
Ban reason and length: You take security way too seriously. Executing prisoners without chain of command, metagaming possible traitor items, and just all around being shitcurity at its finest. Appeal this when you've learned to play the game without a "Gotta Win At Space!" attitude.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 3AM GMT 22/07/2015

Your side of the story: So I'll cover the metagaming side of things first.

I got banned for metagaming because I asked an assistant where they got a set of Mesons from, because you know they're not typically something assistants have engineers do. I also got banned for stopping someone breaking into the reinforced glass box containing Magboots, mainly because they didn't have access and didn't have a need for Magboots while our engineers actually did (due to the singulo being loose).

As far as executing prisoners goes, I killed a confirmed traitor in self defense after I went to check if they were still in Perma-Brig after they had bragged it was easy to escape from. I also killed a clown who had attempted to subvert the AI and then proceded to lock pretty much all of security in the permabrig wing with his all access ID.

HoS, Warden and Captain had all stopped responding by this point. I attempted to PDA the HoS and the Captain but neither responded. Both had stopped communicating via comms as well.

Why you think you should be unbanned: Seems extremely weak, Grasping at straws for a reason to ban me. The entire conversation between Saeg and I felt like he was just pressing for some reason to just drop the hammer. In the end he did it anyway.

I don't consider asking someone where they got a pair of Mesons to be metagaming, Nor do I consider stopping someone from smashing shit open to steal things metagaming either.

As for the kill in permabrig. There was no power, I had no cuffs. I went in to check if scones was still in perma, he tries to slip me with the soap. Now, if I go down I know I'm dead, Captain and HoS had been AWOL and not communicating for some time by that point. Apparently I should ask for permission before executing a traitor that had just tried to kill me in an emergency situation where the singulo was loose and no command staff were responding while the dude is on the ground in front of me.

He never got around to actually explaining the "Shitcurity at it's finest" considering the officers in the round commended me on my good work. I'd also like to point out that at no point in that round was I "valid hunting". I caught three antags, two purely by chance because I was in the right place at the right time.

Saeg has also pre-emptively banned me from supportbus before I can even attempt to speak to MSO or a Headmin.

As it stands, I'd like to request a headmin handle this instead of Saeg.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:24 am #106335

Tornadium wrote:He never got around to actually explaining the "Shitcurity at it's finest" considering the officers in the round commended me on my good work. I'd also like to point out that at no point in that round was I "valid hunting". I caught three antags, two purely by chance because I was in the right place at the right time.

note dump time

Spoiler:

12-Jun-2013 | Banned - Accidental bombing- reduced ban 2 hours for honesty and coming to us first. ~hbk2006 [-]
13-Oct-2013 | Banned for 30 minutes - Released the singularity, accidental or not. ~giacomand [-]
19-Jun-2015 | As RD, crit someone for breaking into EVA. ~lollerderby [-]
21-Jun-2015 | Asshole from years ago. Don't take any of his crap and ban him if he starts giving you shit. ~ikarrus [-]
21-Jun-2015 | Warned - Permabrigging someone for inconveniencing him ~ikarrus [-]
21-Jun-2015 | Banned from Head of Security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer - Permabrigged someone for seemingly inconveniencing him, threw a tanrum and suicided. ~ikarrus [-]
21-Jun-2015 | Banned from Captain - Permabrigged someone for seemingly inconveniencing him, threw a tanrum and suicided. ~ikarrus [-]
22-Jun-2015 | If he refuses to answer admin PMs again/complains afterward I'm banning him for a long time ~korphaeron [-]
29-Jun-2015 | As SO - Used paper-thin reasoning (and what I suspect to be outright lies) to justify executing a Mime with the blob; later perma-brigging that Mime when told they obviously couldn't do this. Argued for days, referencing the parts of Space Law that justify him and ignoring or dismissing those that don't. ~subtlegraces [-]
29-Jun-2015 | (Also will appeal to a Headmin regardless of the situation, be ready to argue on IRC) ~subtlegraces [-]
15-Jul-2015 | Has been acting quite shitty as security lately to the point where people are bringing it up in deadchat consistently. ~quartzcrystal [-]
22-Jul-2015 | Found 3 tators in 1 round using flimsy reasoning for arrests and searches. Offically suspected of metagaming or metacomming or some sort of fuckary that involves ghosts. ~mrstonedone [-]
22-Jul-2015 | Banned from Head of Security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer - You take security way too seriously. Executing prisoners without chain of command, metagaming possible traitor items, and just all around being shitcurity at its finest. Appeal this when you've learned to play the game without a "Gotta Win At Space!" attitude. ~saegrimr [-]

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:28 am #106336

Saegrimr wrote:
Tornadium wrote:He never got around to actually explaining the "Shitcurity at it's finest" considering the officers in the round commended me on my good work. I'd also like to point out that at no point in that round was I "valid hunting". I caught three antags, two purely by chance because I was in the right place at the right time.
note dump time

Spoiler:
12-Jun-2013 | Banned - Accidental bombing- reduced ban 2 hours for honesty and coming to us first. ~hbk2006 [-]
13-Oct-2013 | Banned for 30 minutes - Released the singularity, accidental or not. ~giacomand [-]
19-Jun-2015 | As RD, crit someone for breaking into EVA. ~lollerderby [-]
21-Jun-2015 | Asshole from years ago. Don't take any of his crap and ban him if he starts giving you shit. ~ikarrus [-]
21-Jun-2015 | Warned - Permabrigging someone for inconveniencing him ~ikarrus [-]
21-Jun-2015 | Banned from Head of Security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer - Permabrigged someone for seemingly inconveniencing him, threw a tanrum and suicided. ~ikarrus [-]
21-Jun-2015 | Banned from Captain - Permabrigged someone for seemingly inconveniencing him, threw a tanrum and suicided. ~ikarrus [-]
22-Jun-2015 | If he refuses to answer admin PMs again/complains afterward I'm banning him for a long time ~korphaeron [-]
29-Jun-2015 | As SO - Used paper-thin reasoning (and what I suspect to be outright lies) to justify executing a Mime with the blob; later perma-brigging that Mime when told they obviously couldn't do this. Argued for days, referencing the parts of Space Law that justify him and ignoring or dismissing those that don't. ~subtlegraces [-]
29-Jun-2015 | (Also will appeal to a Headmin regardless of the situation, be ready to argue on IRC) ~subtlegraces [-]
15-Jul-2015 | Has been acting quite shitty as security lately to the point where people are bringing it up in deadchat consistently. ~quartzcrystal [-]
22-Jul-2015 | Found 3 tators in 1 round using flimsy reasoning for arrests and searches. Offically suspected of metagaming or metacomming or some sort of fuckary that involves ghosts. ~mrstonedone [-]
22-Jul-2015 | Banned from Head of Security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer - You take security way too seriously. Executing prisoners without chain of command, metagaming possible traitor items, and just all around being shitcurity at its finest. Appeal this when you've learned to play the game without a "Gotta Win At Space!" attitude. ~saegrimr [-]

I'm happy to go through each of these if you feel it is appropriate.

Also 5 of those notes reference one single incident that was resolved. Hell in that circumstance it was agreed that my in-game actions were perfectly justified. It was just my distaste of Ikarrus that caused an issue.

If you're really going to accuse me of metacommunicating because I caught 3 traitors in one round you really need to actually review what happened in the round.

Considering the second traitor I caught was called out over comms standing where there were bullet casings and a dude screaming that he had tried to kill him, and the first traitor was a result of a justified search due to sounds of violence and gibbing coming from the kitchen. Hell I was just there getting smokes, Check the logs pretty sure other people said they heard the violence coming from the kitchen cooler room.

Christ.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:32 am #106340

oranges wrote:This ban should've been done under rule 1 a long time ago

God forbid I do my job as security.

I didn't do anything dickish in the round in question. Every arrest I made was perfectly justified, I didn't go valid hunting either. I was the first responder to an incident that was called out over the fucking radio, I was in the bar when I heard slashing and violence in the kitchen followed by the gibber. You're trying to tell me that's not a reasonable reason to investigate?

22-Jul-2015 | Found 3 tators in 1 round using flimsy reasoning for arrests and searches. Offically suspected of metagaming or metacomming or some sort of fuckary that involves ghosts. ~mrstonedone [-]

I'm sorry but really?

I have to come back to this. I'm suspected of metacomming because I show up to something someone called out on the radio and because I was in the bar at the time we heard fighting in the kitchen followed by the gibber going off?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:39 am #106341

Tornadium wrote:If you're really going to accuse me of metacommunicating because I caught 3 traitors in one round you really need to actually review what happened in the round.

I was not the one who placed that note, appeal to our server host about it which I fully expect you to do after you get shot down by the headmins like you did last time you got jobbanned for being shitcurity.

You searched a chef for getting his ass kicked by his goat.
Made an obscenely large deal over an assistant with mesons, and for someone else grabbing mag boots. (oh no those traitor items!)
You executed someone in the permabrig with the excuse of "I didn't have restraints" despite revolvering him down and then harmbatonning to death. Walk out the fucking door you don't need to go into perma for shit, detective.
You attemped to arrest a clown for slipping you and then cuffing himself. You dragged him to the brig, couldn't work the timers because you aren't a sec officer, somehow let him escape and he threw you in perma and walked off. So yeah just unloaded on the guy with your revolver chambered in lethal bullets instead of the usual.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:45 am #106347

Saegrimr wrote:
Tornadium wrote:If you're really going to accuse me of metacommunicating because I caught 3 traitors in one round you really need to actually review what happened in the round.
I was not the one who placed that note, appeal to our server host about it which I fully expect you to do after you get shot down by the headmins like you did last time you got jobbanned for being shitcurity.

I would, you banned me from IRC.

You searched a chef for getting his ass kicked by his goat.

I heard violence coming from the kitchen, followed by gibbing. I saw human gibs on the floor so I searched the chef and he had traitor equipment. What about that is shitcurity?

Made an obscenely large deal over an assistant with mesons, and for someone else grabbing mag boots. (oh no those traitor items!)

Obscenely large deal? I asked where he got the fucking mesons, I didn't do anything to him. He was acting shifty as fuck and I still didn't do anything. I didn't ask to search him, I didn't force search him. I simply stopped someone breaking into a secure container to take things they didn't have access to. Your interpretation is basically worst case scenario in an attempt to justify this ban. If you notice I left him unsupervised after he stopped breaking the glass, I didn't hang around to prevent him from trying again now did I?

You executed someone in the permabrig with the excuse of "I didn't have restraints" despite revolvering him down and then harmbatonning to death. Walk out the fucking door you don't need to go into perma for shit, detective.

He tried to slip me, If I had gone down I was dead. He was bragging earlier about how easy it was to escape from that perma so I went to check it. I didn't see either of the two prisoners so I investigated. Seriously what the fuck is the problem with that? I'd also like to mention that both were caught with traitor gear and the HoS/Captain hadn't been responding for a loooong time. Despite attempting multiple times to get in contact with them. There was no chain of command to follow, Trust me I tried to follow it. Logs will show that.

You attemped to arrest a clown for slipping you and then cuffing himself. You dragged him to the brig, couldn't work the timers because you aren't a sec officer, somehow let him escape and he threw you in perma and walked off. So yeah just unloaded on the guy with your revolver chambered in lethal bullets instead of the usual.

What the fuck, I arrested the clown because he attempted to subvert the fucking AI. All of security was fucking off doing their own thing, The warden was braindead. I eventually got the AI to start the timer. He was released and then he locked security in the perma wing THREE TIMES with his all access ID. I didn't have lethal bullets, I had a speedloader of .357 that wasn't used the entire round. I didn't make it either, it was given to me. I'm pretty sure revolvers have to be modified to take .357 as well.

I think this needs clarified just to make it clear.

The clown served his 8 minute sentence and was released, We were busy dealing with prisoners in the perma wing and he comes back in with his all access ID and locks the wing down. He does this multiple times.

Like seriously did you bother to review fucking anything before you dropped this ban?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:50 am #106351

Tornadium wrote:He was bragging earlier about how easy it was to escape from that perma so I went to check it. I didn't see either prisoner so I investigated. Seriously what the fuck is the problem with that?

I shouldn't even comment about this but its too fucking golden. Are you also aware gullible isn't listed in the dictionary?

Tornadium wrote:I didn't have lethal bullets, I had a speedloader of .357 that wasn't used the entire round. I didn't make it either, it was given to me. I'm pretty sure revolvers have to be modified to take .357 as well.

[01:11:57]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) shot Unknown(-) with the bullet (NEWHP: 90)
[01:11:57]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) shot Unknown(-) with the bullet (NEWHP: 75)
[01:11:57]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) shot Unknown(-) with the bullet (NEWHP: 60)
[01:11:57]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) shot Unknown(-) with the bullet (NEWHP: 45)
[01:11:58]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) shot Unknown(-) with the bullet (NEWHP: 30)
[01:11:58]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) shot Unknown(-) with the bullet (NEWHP: 15)
[01:12:02]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) disarmed Unknown(-) (NEWHP: 0)
[01:12:04]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) disarmed Unknown(-) (NEWHP: -4)
[01:12:05]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) disarmed Unknown(-) (NEWHP: -4)
[01:12:06]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) disarmed Unknown(-) (NEWHP: -4)
[01:12:07]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) disarmed Unknown(-) (NEWHP: -5.66666)

Unless these attack logs are lieing to me, this looks like lethal bullets and then you bashing him with something(the gun itself?) with disarm intent on.

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:51 am #106352

Whether they're "lethal" or not is semantics, the gun hurts badly with .38 bullets.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:52 am #106353

I shouldn't even comment about this but its too fucking golden. Are you also aware gullible isn't listed in the dictionary?

You're complaining because I thought better safe than sorry and checked?

Tornadium wrote:I didn't have lethal bullets, I had a speedloader of .357 that wasn't used the entire round. I didn't make it either, it was given to me. I'm pretty sure revolvers have to be modified to take .357 as well.

[01:11:57]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) shot Unknown(-) with the bullet (NEWHP: 90)
[01:11:57]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) shot Unknown(-) with the bullet (NEWHP: 75)
[01:11:57]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) shot Unknown(-) with the bullet (NEWHP: 60)
[01:11:57]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) shot Unknown(-) with the bullet (NEWHP: 45)
[01:11:58]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) shot Unknown(-) with the bullet (NEWHP: 30)
[01:11:58]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) shot Unknown(-) with the bullet (NEWHP: 15)
[01:12:02]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) disarmed Unknown(-) (NEWHP: 0)
[01:12:04]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) disarmed Unknown(-) (NEWHP: -4)
[01:12:05]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) disarmed Unknown(-) (NEWHP: -4)
[01:12:06]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) disarmed Unknown(-) (NEWHP: -4)
[01:12:07]ATTACK: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)(tornadium) disarmed Unknown(-) (NEWHP: -5.66666)

Unless these attack logs are lieing to me, this looks like lethal bullets and then you bashing him with something(the gun itself?) with disarm intent on.[/quote]

Uh, Don't .32 or whatever the default is for the detective revolver do around 15 damage?

I was under the impression that .357 does significantly more.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:54 am #106354

Hornygranny wrote:Whether they're "lethal" or not is semantics, the gun hurts badly with .38 bullets.

It does 15 brute if I'm not mistaken.

It is semantics because I don't deny that I indeed intended to kill Scones in the permabrig. I know that'll get turned into "oh you went into the brig with the intent to execute", no that's not what I'm saying.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:55 am #106355

Tornadium wrote:Uh, Don't .32 or whatever the default is for the detective revolver do around 15 damage?

I was under the impression that .357 does significantly more.

Must have been buffed from the original 5 they did, either way you kept it up until he was dead so the actual bullet itself doesn't matter. Beating someone to death with a fluffy pillow is still beating someone to death.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:56 am #106356

Saegrimr wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Uh, Don't .32 or whatever the default is for the detective revolver do around 15 damage?

I was under the impression that .357 does significantly more.
Must have been buffed from the original 5 they did, either way you kept it up until he was dead so the actual bullet itself doesn't matter. Beating someone to death with a fluffy pillow is still beating someone to death.

I don't deny that I fully intended to kill him after he attempted to slip me. Originally I had asked for back-up I believe.

Had the roles been reversed and I'd slipped on the soap I was dead.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:01 am #106357

Tornadium wrote:Had the roles been reversed and I'd slipped on the soap I was dead.

Correct.

That's why you, as the detective, shouldn't bother with nerds in perma. Or better yet, since you had two of the tools necessary to take them down.. SHUT THE DOOR AND LEAVE. He's already in perma, what the hell else do you need to "restrain" him with?

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:05 am #106358

Saegrimr wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Had the roles been reversed and I'd slipped on the soap I was dead.
Correct.

That's why you, as the detective, shouldn't bother with nerds in perma. Or better yet, since you had two of the tools necessary to take them down.. SHUT THE DOOR AND LEAVE. He's already in perma, what the hell else do you need to "restrain" him with?

Well when security is all over the fucking place being entirely useless with the HoS fucking off and not actually communicating the entire round, likewise for the Captain what the hell else am I meant to do? Hell the warden was braindead 10 minutes in. Just went into the execution chamber and didn't say a word to anyone (at least not that I saw).

I mean are you really giving me shit for trying to do security's job when they themselves were not?

I tried looking on the monitor first but because of the power outage I couldn't see jack shit so I had to go in. Dude expressed that it would be extremely easy to bust out, why would I not check to see if he was attempting such a thing? Dude rushed me, as you agreed with I'd have been dead. I'm well aware Scones is far more robust than I especially with the lag I have on sybil, no shit I went for the throat to make sure he didn't get me. In a situation where power is failing across the station, there is no command staff communicating, people are dying and the singularity is gone can you not maybe understand why I may have decided to cut a corner to deal with a situation like that?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:07 am #106359

Oh yeah, funny thing about that bold edit you made at the top.
I didn't "pre-emptively ban you from supportbus"

<MrStonedOne> .akick add Tornadium Please take it to ban appeals. You have a habit of drowning things on forever in #supportbus until the admin or headmin relents out of annoyance.

The person you're desperately crying out for to save you is the one who threw you under the (support)bus, so i'd recommend going and cooling off as I asked you to appeal this when you don't feel like you need to win at space.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:09 am #106360

Saegrimr wrote:Oh yeah, funny thing about that bold edit you made at the top.
I didn't "pre-emptively ban you from supportbus"

<MrStonedOne> .akick add Tornadium Please take it to ban appeals. You have a habit of drowning things on forever in #supportbus until the admin or headmin relents out of annoyance.

The person you're desperately crying out for to save you is the one who threw you under the (support)bus, so i'd recommend going and cooling off as I asked you to appeal this when you don't feel like you need to win at space.

I added that before I found out that MSO added a metacomm note to my account without actually reviewing the context of the 3 traitors I had apprehended.

You know the one where everyone in the bar heard the violence going on in the kitchen and the one where it was called out over the radio and the dude was still there right beside the bullet casings?

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:29 am #106366

So another point I had since I can't edit.

With the station going to complete shit, no command staff to be heard of after multiple attempts at communication and the singularity going off to god knows where...Why is "Executing prisoners without chain of command" included?

When you consider that the most important point you're making is about the kill in perma (which was a kill that was made in the middle of combat) why am I still being held to some extreme standard of conduct during a crisis?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:31 am #106367

Understand this isn't hinged on any single incident that occurred in the round, this is the total of your terrible security practices as agreed upon by multiple admins.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:34 am #106368

Saegrimr wrote:Understand this isn't hinged on any single incident that occurred in the round, this is the total of your terrible security practices as agreed upon by multiple admins.

Okay, what practices during that round were terrible.

Like please explain to me, for the record so I'm aware of how shit I actually am what constitutes as "terrible security practice".

Was it the searches I conducted that led to the arrest of the three antagonists?

Was it killing Scones in self-defense?

Was it killing the clown out of sheer frustration?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:36 am #106369

TOTAL. As in you've done enough shitcurity over the last month that you've got more notes than most people get in two years.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:41 am #106370

I was under the impression that in order for a ban to be applied you had to break server rules or for example toe it as per rule 1.

What action in that round that I took was dickish or broke the server rules. I don't believe I was overly harsh or hard on anyone. I don't believe I was particularly shitty towards anyone or in any of the circumstances.

I have a grand total of 11 notes (at least those that you posted)

5 Notes were from an incident with Ikarrus. My in-game conduct was absolutely fine, it was my conduct towards Ikarrus that was the issue.

Another note is a reference to me wanting to speak to people in IRC.

And two are from the incident today, one of which is a metacomm accusation which given the context of the round is insane.

Pray tell, what shitcurity are we talking about. Like you honestly can't just give me a vague response like TOTAL and not actually justify your reasoning. Not only am I not going to learn anything, this case will be utterly useless as a point of reference.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:49 am #106374

Your notes are essentially all from Security, which is why you are only job banned from security roles. This is to give you some time to play other roles and cool off from security.

Your conduct is laughable that you argued in supportbus for TWO DAYS STRAIGHT until a headmin threw up his hands and said fuck it just to get you to go away. This is also why you've been pre-emptively banned from supportbus because nobody else was willing to deal with your shit except for me. I've had to handle other ahelps from you and against you that would have probably been too stupid to apply a note to, so I erred against it but when it keeps happening like this, something has to give.

And if you want to get real uppity about it, i'll chalk this up to Rule 0. Go push some crates, defib some idiot who got toolboxed, or just play another game to get your play to win attitude satiated.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:53 am #106376

Saegrimr wrote:Your notes are essentially all from Security, which is why you are only job banned from security roles. This is to give you some time to play other roles and cool off from security.

Your conduct is laughable that you argued in supportbus for TWO DAYS STRAIGHT until a headmin threw up his hands and said fuck it just to get you to go away. This is also why you've been pre-emptively banned from supportbus because nobody else was willing to deal with your shit except for me. I've had to handle other ahelps from you and against you that would have probably been too stupid to apply a note to, so I erred against it but when it keeps happening like this, something has to give.

And if you want to get real uppity about it, i'll chalk this up to Rule 0. Go push some crates, defib some idiot who got toolboxed, or just play another game to get your play to win attitude satiated.

You're literally not even bothering to answer my question or attempt to give any real justification into this other than "I don't like you". Do you really expect me just to be content with what I consider to be a shitty ban? Give me something to work with here. Don't ignore the question.

Tell me what I did, tell me why it was wrong. I'm not going to learn jack shit unless you actually tell me "You did A. This is why A is wrong."

You think it's bad conduct for me to argue my side of the case when I feel that something is unjust? Like seriously do you guys just not like getting your decisions challenged or what's the deal here.

Yeah my grand total of 11 notes, As I said 3/4s of which are irrelevant to security.

Two took place today.

What did I do that broke rule 0, What did I do that was play to win. Seriously, you can't just say "oh you did this" and then not tell me when or where this occurred.

onleavedontatme · Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:00 am

The meson thing is pretty iffy but otherwise it doesn't sound like a great ban. Nothing else was against the rules if it happened the way you said it did. Half your notes are just "I don't really like this" guy as well.

But you seem to get banned for borderline security stuff once a week and I'm sure other admins are highly annoyed at me for lifting your bans at this point. I feel like we're just going to have a near identical thread next week if I lift this. I think this is the fourth time or something, five if you count my ban appeal, that I've had to argue with admins about you since I became headmin. Something is clearly not working out if this is a weekly occurrence.

I'll probably end up lifting this despite everyone telling me not to because muh rules muh fairness but there needs to be some sort of change in the way you interact with admins if you're pissing everyone off consistently. I don't want to bail you out constantly against the rest of the admin team.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:05 am #106379

Kor wrote:The meson thing is pretty iffy but otherwise it doesn't sound like a great ban. Nothing else was against the rules if it happened the way you said it did. Half your notes are just "I don't really like this" guy as well.

But you seem to get banned for borderline security stuff once a week and I'm sure other admins are highly annoyed at me for lifting your bans at this point. I feel like we're just going to have a near identical thread next week if I lift this. I think this is the fourth time or something, five if you count my ban appeal, that I've had to argue with admins about you since I became headmin. Something is clearly not working out if this is a weekly occurrence.

I'll probably end up lifting this despite everyone telling me not to because muh rules muh fairness but there needs to be some sort of change in the way you interact with admins if you're pissing everyone off consistently. I don't want to bail you out constantly against the rest of the admin team.

As I don't know meta very well my assumption was he stole mesons from engineering.

I wasn't aware you can get them in maint all over the place.

I try to be a pleasant as possible when interacting with admins, I'm not sure what I'm doing to "piss people off" when I interact with them. Feel free to just talk to me about it, I'm a pretty reasonable person to just talk to. I'll argue my side but I'm not going to go full on dick if you have a problem and just want to work it out. Hell Saeg from the first time I jumped on IRC just didn't like that I was arguing my side of the issue and got extremely pissy about it.

I believe it's the third time judging by the notes and the previous two were overturned, The first one wasn't related to security. The ban was a security ban but it was to do with my dislike of Ikarrus at the time. My conduct ingame was actually fine for that incident.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:48 am #106394

I dunno how you've lasted this long without knowing mesons spawn in maint but ok, apparently you made a massive fuss about it.

People loot things from eva when the singulo is loose, it's ok to know about traitor objectives imo tbh because we let you know about everything else but you need to add context into your actions, a guy looting from EVA when it is loose is most likely just some player being an opportunist or legitimately just wanting some items to help with not dying.

The chef thing seems fine if it went down how you described it, a combination of vigilance and bad luck for the chef.

If you had confirmed that the clown had traitor gear and had tried subverting the AI and then came back to dick sec over with perma wing shutters and all access frankly he's valid as fuck regardless of whether you were security or a detective or not.

I'm honestly not sure why we're making such a big fuss out of a perma prisoner being gunned down, nor about why the detective is apparently not allowed or shouldn't be going into perma. Despite the opinions of some, the detective can and sometimes has to step up to being essentially a sec officer with less access and a scanner.

But that's that, I don't seem to play much when you're on and I'm sure other admins do and have formed a better picture of you. The incidents referred to in this thread might be ok by themselves but taken with some of your notes, it might be best for your own sake to take a break from security, even if this ban does get lifted.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:04 am #106451

imblyings wrote:I dunno how you've lasted this long without knowing mesons spawn in maint but ok, apparently you made a massive fuss about it.

I don't use mesons often outside of engineering. Seriously, I just asked the dude "where did you get the mesons".

I thought the fucker stole mesons, I wasn't making a massive fuss. A massive fuss would have been a search.

I didn't even attempt it or request it.

People loot things from eva when the singulo is loose, it's ok to know about traitor objectives imo tbh because we let you know about everything else but you need to add context into your actions, a guy looting from EVA when it is loose is most likely just some player being an opportunist or legitimately just wanting some items to help with not dying.

Well there was no immediate danger as the singulo went north. He had a suit, I stopped him from breaking in and getting mag boots then wandered off. I didn't hang around and be a shit to ensure he didn't get that greentext. Just stopped him from breaking the glass at the time.

I'm honestly not sure why we're making such a big fuss out of a perma prisoner being gunned down, nor about why the detective is apparently not allowed or shouldn't be going into perma. Despite the opinions of some, the detective can and sometimes has to step up to being essentially a sec officer with less access and a scanner.

This was a situation where I felt I had to because the majority of security wasn't really doing anything to help with anything.

Warden was braindead pretty much from roundstart and the HoS/Captain hadn't been seen in a long time and weren't responding via PDA. Also for a good period of time comms were also down.

But that's that, I don't seem to play much when you're on and I'm sure other admins do and have formed a better picture of you. The incidents referred to in this thread might be ok by themselves but taken with some of your notes, it might be best for your own sake to take a break from security, even if this ban does get lifted.

I have 11 notes, Two are related to security and two are related to the current incident.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:10 am #106469

So in another thread Sticky said I made flimsy justifications for searching the three antags I got caught because apparently " I know I was wrong".

Can someone point out the flimsy justification to me please?

Also fuck the clown seriously. He bitched moaned and complained that he got 8 minutes for something that should have been at LEAST 15 and probably extended because of the intent of grand sabotage.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:40 pm #106511

Mesons: Maybe meta but its the detective's job to be suspicious of people, and in the past we had no restrictions on security (or anyone) knowing full details on what sort of equipment syndicate agents used, even the covert stuff.

Magboots: Magboots aren't an objective anymore, so arguing "META! RED TEXT HUNTER!" is retarded. Even if they are the adv magboots doesn't matter in the slightest that the singulo was out, grand theft is grand theft - wouldn't be the first time a traitor has used the chaos of the singulo escape to act as a distraction for them to snatch up their target.

Executing without permission: We had this thread, we agreed it being an OOC issue was dumb and it should be back to being an IC-only issue. Plus the dude he killed was a confirmed traitor who was in perma. Perma == Execution. Attempt to escape from perma == automatic permission to kill the prisoner.

Clown: Subverting the AI is Grand Sabotage, locking down an entire department is Grand Sabotage. Thats two counts of Grab Sab, clown was valid for execution and fucking deserved it!

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:44 pm #106513

Malkevin wrote:Mesons: Maybe meta but its the detective's job to be suspicious of people, and in the past we had no restrictions on security (or anyone) knowing full details on what sort of equipment syndicate agents used, even the covert stuff.

At the time I was just asking where he got them from because I was under the impression that they aren't just widely available.

He was skulking around near engineering so I had assumed he stole them from engineering. I thought thermals were removed a long time ago? Didn't the HoS and shit used to have them?

Also the clown committed Major Tresspass and Major B&E. I gave him 8 minutes for those two crimes plus an attempt at subverting the AI. He got super fucking pissy and threatened me. I didn't try to rearrest him for trying to slip me the first time around.

Post by **Vekter** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:54 pm #106514

Metacomms != metagaming. Stop confusing them, Tornadium.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:01 pm #106516

Vekter wrote:Metacomms != metagaming. Stop confusing them, Tornadium.

Got accused of both.

I understand the difference, Metacomms was regarding my apprehension of three traitors in one round. Thought I was being helped by ghosts or something.

peoplearestrange · Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:52 pm

EDIT: Moved from feedback thread as it was more relevant here.

Tornadium wrote:Current handling of my appeal and ban is extremely poor.
Seems to be grasping at straws to justify a ban that is entirely based on personal dislike.

Here's some feedback for you seeing as you don't have a thread I can complain on:

You have spread your whiny complaints everywhere. Ban appeal, admin complaint, forum/mods feedback, admin feedback, singlo, IRC. I'm fairly certain it won't be long until it ends up in an off-topic thread as well.
I haven't looked at your ban or your appeal in detail, but your overall attitude is appalling. You've been aggressive toward anyone who attempts to communicate with you and frankly I don't see why people would want to have to put up with that. Regardless of the appeal or situation you have acted asshole and that alone is more than enough to be covered by our first rule.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:56 pm #106549

peoplearestrange wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Current handling of my appeal and ban is extremely poor.
Seems to be grasping at straws to justify a ban that is entirely based on personal dislike.
Here's some feedback for you seeing as you don't have a thread I can complain on:

You have spread your whiny complaints everywhere. Ban appeal, admin complaint, forum/mods feedback, admin feedback, singlo, IRC. I'm fairly certain it won't be long until it ends up in an off-topic thread as well.
I haven't looked at your ban or your appeal in detail, but your overall attitude is appalling. You've been aggressive toward anyone who attempts to communicate with you and frankly I don't see why people would want to have to put up with that. Regardless of the appeal or situation you have acted asshole and that alone is more than enough to be covered by our first rule.

Wait, I'm suddenly not allowed to complain about the handling of my appeal and the admin handling the appeal?

Can you give me some indication of what you feel is "aggressive"? I'm frustrated that I've been banned for basically nothing, I've been given no explanation because vague indications of a rule breach that refuses to materialize. The admin in question is allowed to provide a negative character reference as justification for the ban (as there really is nothing else) yet other members of the community who say I'm actually decent IC get their posts removed.

I've been perfectly respectful to everyone bar Saegrimr so far, I haven't threatened, I haven't called names or done anything that could be interpreted as "aggressive" in my honest opinion. Every other person who has weighed in on my appeal or any of the other threads I have answered in a respectful manner providing citations and an explanation of my side of the story.

Who have I been aggressive to?

peoplearestrange · Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:03 pm

Ok firstly I didn't say you couldn't complain, or even that anyone else, for that mater, couldn't. I'm saying the way you've gone about it is nothing but shitty.
Aggressive doesn't have to mean screaming "YOU SHIT!", it can be in tone, intonation, what's even left out sometimes, or in this case, that you've spread this everywhere like someone throwing a tantrum.

What I'm implying is that instead of just keeping yourself to the ban appeal you had to spread you're noise elsewhere. You could have PM'd another admin, you could have asked for a seconded opinion from another admin in your appeal thread (i've literally just closed a thread where I gave a second opinion from another admin as they didn't feel the original admins statement was useful).

You also haven't been respectful to Sticky from what I saw and the other admins who dared tread in your thread. Passive aggression is still the same as aggression whether you think it to be true or not.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:07 pm #106560

peoplearestrange wrote:Ok firstly I didn't say you couldn't complain, or even that anyone else, for that mater, couldn't. I'm saying the way you've gone about it is nothing but shitty.
Aggressive doesn't have to mean screaming "YOU SHIT!", it can be in tone, intonation, what's even left out sometimes, or in this case, that you've spread this everywhere like someone throwing a tantrum.

Actually I didn't make the original comments that spread it outside of the ban appeal.

I gave feedback regarding the admin, which is fair enough considering I feel? The complaint wasn't registered with me, I did however get involved whenever someone said i was making "Flimsy excuses" and as such I'd like to know what they were.

It's hard to judge tone through text, I'm happy to jump on teamspeak and speak to people.

What I'm implying is that instead of just keeping yourself to the ban appeal you had to spread you're noise elsewhere. You could have PM'd another admin, you could have asked for a seconded opinion from another admin in your appeal thread (i've literally just closed a thread where I gave a second opinion from another admin as they didn't feel the original admins statement was useful).

I requested a headmin handle it in the OP f the appeal.

I didn't spread noise. I commented where I felt it was appropriate. It was being discussed by other parties in the complaints thread and I made my own complaint regarding Saegrimr.

That is not me spreading noise.

You also haven't been respectful to Sticky from what I saw and the other admins who dared tread in your thread. Passive aggression is still the same as aggression whether you think it to be true or not.

I haven't actually spoken to sticky regarding this. I sent him a PM asking what Flimsy justifications he was referring to. That's about it?

onleavedontatme · Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:43 pm

I don't think it's really fair to blame someone for getting upset when they get banned for a dumb reason.

If admins want to rule zero someone they should rule zero someone instead of dancing around it and telling someone they got banned for killing a traitor or other nonsense.

Calling it powergaming is also silly (outside of the mesons thing), literally just traitors whining "I lost please ban." Hunting badguys is more or less the job description for security, doing your job correctly should not be grounds for getting banned from it.

I always thought banning for "Play to win" was ludicrous in it's wording anyway (the game has goals, people try to accomplish the goals, this is wrong because ???), but I guess thats' another discussion.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:46 pm #106585

Honestly the reasoning of the ban isn't the worst thing and it's not what has pissed me off to a degree.

It's how it's being handled, I still haven't actually been told what I have done wrong to warrant that ban.

Since I have managed to piss off a lot of people with this appeal, I apologize if I come across as hostile or aggressive. It is not my intention and I apologize if it comes across that way.

As for power-gaming, every single arrest I made was with good caught in an IC context without stretching it for valid hunting. Sounds of violence and gibbing prompting an investigation, a call for help and the culprit standing right next to a bunch of bullet casings and someone acting shifty as fuck for a good 20 minutes.

I wasn't play 2 winning I don't feel as each of the arrests I made were a result of something that occurred in round. I wasn't hunting, just either in the right place at the right time or responding to a call.

So if the ban reason is made up, what's the rule 0 reason for the ban during that session?

drovidi · Post by **drovidi** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:25 pm #106644

Spoiler:

tl;dr, he was unapologetically playing to win in the round in which I encountered him to the extent - quite out of character, mind, acting against and lying about the Captain - that it significantly damaged not just my round or the rounds of the antagonists, but quite a few people's. Regardless of what's considered IC knowledge and what's considered metagaming, as security, he singlemindedly pursues antagonists regardless of IC context or situations, and simply doesn't care whether he ruins things for a few non-valids in the process, and should not be playing security until he either comes to a better understanding of how the game works, or develops some sense of sportsmanship or human decency. He's a bad player who'd rather strike an extra tally on his antag scoreboard than improve someone's day. He was banned from security because he uses security to do that. He's only complaining because he feels he's done a good enough job toeing the line that he deserves to get away with it.

Remove the jobban and he'll go right back to toeing the line as security. Make it a tempban and he might be more conservative with what he thinks he can get away with. But if you leave it as it is, he might be forced to play other jobs where there isn't as much risk he'll ruin peoples' rounds and where he doesn't have an incentive to set a redtext quota, he might be forced to change his attitudes about the game.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:36 pm #106645

drovidi wrote:
Spoiler:
The one round in which I interacted with this guy, I'd purchased a syndicate encryption key. He was advising security to conduct random searches, and was literally keeping score of the number of traitors he'd caught. He conducted a random search on me, found the plutonium core I'd managed to steal, and carted me off to the permabrig. (Some of the prisoners in perma had been placed there because security had been asking 'double agents' to identify their targets, and at least one person who was on the gulag was innocent. They didn't release those prisoners when they found my traitor-objective-exclusive item, but that's beside the point.) When the Captain asked to speak with me and another caught traitor, he tried to prevent it, along with another officer, and when the Captain did finally manage to get us to his office, he tried to obstruct the conversation as much as possible, reporting on the security channel that the Captain was actively trying to release us when he was not.
He eventually promised on the radio and in the presence of a cyborg that he would kill the Captain, which prompted the cyborgs to try to drag us away, and I believe that escalated to his attacking the borgs.
tl;dr, he was unapologetically playing to win in the round in which I encountered him to the extent - quite out of character, mind, acting against and lying about the Captain - that it significantly damaged not just my round or the rounds of the antagonists, but quite a few people's. Regardless of what's considered IC knowledge and what's considered metagaming, as security, he singlemindedly pursues antagonists regardless of IC context or situations, and simply doesn't care whether he ruins things for a few non-valids in the process, and should not be playing security until he either comes to a better understanding of how the game works, or develops some sense of sportsmanship or human decency. He's a bad player who'd rather strike an extra tally on his antag scoreboard than improve someone's day. He was banned from security because he uses security to do that. He's only complaining because he feels he's done a good enough job toeing the line that he deserves to get away with it.

Remove the jobban and he'll go right back to toeing the line as security. Make it a tempban and he might be more conservative with what he thinks he can get away with. But if you leave it as it is, he might be forced to play other jobs where there isn't as much risk he'll ruin peoples' rounds and where he doesn't have an incentive to set a redtext quota, he might be forced to change his attitudes about the game.

This is entirely irrelevant to the current appeal.

This also is not peanut gallery, since the positive character references were removed.

I'll bite regardless, Which round was this with the Plutonium Core? What the hell is a Plutonium Core for a start? If you're referring to the round where Kor was the Captain and he brought the two of you to his office

1. I didn't catch you, I late joined the round. My sum interaction during that round was to prevent the Captain letting two confirmed enemies of the station running free across the station. This may be a different round though because I don't recall anything you've said being in that round. Like at all.

2. I stopped the Captain from releasing you because you were confirmed enemies of the station and a serious security threat. That is not playing to win, that's having a legitimate In Character concern for the safety of the crew and station. I said I would stop the Captain from releasing you. There was no physical threat of violence until shit kicked off after the Borg had attempted to flee with you. This was all covered in that appeal thread Kor made though. My actions were entirely legitimate.

So yeah, I'll reiterate that in the round in which this appeal is referring to it has already been established that I wasn't toeing the line. Not a single rule was broken.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:51 pm #106646

Stopped by a HUD-wearing Detective for wearing mesons

Arrested later on, wordlessly, and the first thing he strips from me are the mesons

Put in perma by the Detective.

Summarily executed later by the Detective, who straitjackets my corpse and hides it in the unlit Sanitarium.

drovidi · Post by **drovidi** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:56 pm #106647

The ban in question is not for a specific action, it's for a pattern of action. What I posted is relevant to the ban this thread is discussing because it's an example of an action consistent with that pattern. I mostly posted it to response to Kor, who I think's giving Tornadium more benefit of the doubt than is due.
I hope, Kor, that you don't lift the ban unless you've reviewed the things he's done and you're confident that everyone who's saying that he plays security in a way that damages rounds more than it helps is mistaken. Plenty of traitors get caught by security. Plenty of clowns get dunked for doing stupid things. There's an objection to this guy in particular for a reason.

(Also, Tor, I think it's cute that you're arguing that you weren't toeing the line by saying that no one action you took materially broke a rule.)

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:01 pm #106648

Scones wrote:Stopped by a HUD-wearing Detective for wearing mesons

I asked you where did you get Mesons. I also asked you why you bolted the split second I came anywhere near you.

Arrested later on, wordlessly, and the first thing he strips from me are the mesons

Actually the first thing I did was empty your pockets and check your bag. I had been observing you for a while, as had other officers. You were shift as fuck and not even trying to hide it by running the SECOND we came near you multiple times.

Put in perma by the Detective.

You had an E-Sword, So yeah I did. After I had already tried to contact the Captain and the Head of Security to no avail.

Summarily executed later by the Detective, who straitjackets my corpse and hides it in the unlit Sanitarium.

No you tried to attack me in the permabrig when I went to check if you had escaped or not. Had i slipped on the soap instead of you, I was dead.

drovidi wrote:The ban in question is not for a specific action, it's for a pattern of action. What I posted is relevant to the ban this thread is discussing because it's an example of an action consistent with that pattern. I mostly posted it to response to Kor, who I think's giving Tornadium more benefit of the doubt than is due.
I hope, Kor, that you don't lift the ban unless you've reviewed the things he's done and you're confident that everyone who's saying that he plays security in a way that damages rounds more than it helps is mistaken. Plenty of traitors get caught by security. Plenty of clowns get dunked for doing stupid things. There's an objection to this guy in particular for a reason.

(Also, Tor, I think it's cute that you're arguing that you weren't toeing the line by saying that no one action you took materially broke a rule.)

Oh it was originally for specific actions, Then it turned out they were all false so it retroactively got turned into a rule 0 ban. Well, your post is irrelevant because the first half was 100% not me, I was part of the issue on the bridge with the Captain saying he wanted to let you go (Logs already confirmed this, you're late to the party check the other thread).

No one has actually said what I these "patterns of behavior" are yet? You keep throwing these vague terms around and you haven't yet come up with one that is valid.

It's cute that not a single thing I did in that round was anything close to rule breaking and a headmin ruled on that already?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:13 pm #106649

I don't know how people attack you without anything in the attack logs

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:16 pm #106652

Scones wrote:I don't know how people attack you without anything in the attack logs

You died on top of the soap, you were hidden in the bathroom in perma. You rushed into me intent on pushing me into the soap.

Lets not be under any illusions here, Had I been slipped I was dead.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:19 pm #106653

Logs can't prove anything either way, but you were standing out of it's line the entire time.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:21 pm #106656

Scones wrote:Logs can't prove anything either way, but you were standing out of it's line the entire time.

Nope I was stupid enough to walk into the door to open it.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:33 pm #106659

Hi, I log dived.
http://privatepaste.com/ab55e1d7b6
That's as far as I'm involved in this.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:39 pm #106662

NikNakFlak wrote:Hi, I log dived.
http://privatepaste.com/ab55e1d7b6
That's as far as I'm involved in this.

I'm happy to go through that with you if you want to jump on IRC or Teamspeak.

There seems to be some heavy miscommunication here with regards to what's in those logs, outright assumptions more than anything else. There is far too much to go through in quotes but if I really have to, I'm happy to provide context that those cherry picked logs are certainly lacking.

For example I didn't even know until that round that Thermals were still a thing. I thought they were gone. Also engineering doesn't (I think?) have enough suits for the entire department right?.

Also as reference to HG, No I didn't go into the armory to get a taser. The borg gave me the taser much earlier in the round.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:50 pm #106666

Don't address me, I don't make any calls. Up to everyone else involved here. etc etc.