PAREPEN REMOVAL

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:36 pm #17563

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4059

Oh, not in cruelty, not in wrath,
The Reaper came that day;
An angel visited this gray path,
And took the parapen away.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:46 pm #17565

THE DREAM IS REAL

Lovecraft · Post by **Lovecraft** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:15 pm #17571

"I'm mad please nerf I was killed by this so let's remove it"

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:18 pm #17572

Lovecraft wrote:"I'm mad please nerf I was killed by this so let's remove it"

found the powergamer

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:53 pm #17610

Lovecraft wrote:"I'm mad please nerf I was killed by this so let's remove it"

stop playing space station thirteen

AssassinT90 · Post by **AssassinT90** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:56 pm #17612

Who the fuck needs a parapen anymore? Now you can just point your flashlight at someone and break his headset.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:01 pm #17627

Speaking as the guy who nerfed chloral with 0 regrets, I dunno about this. I feel parapens have a valid role in taking on better-equipped opponents, and enabling kidnapping. I always saw it as this kind of James Bond-style disabling tool rather than some OK THIS GUY IS UNCONCIOUS TIME TO BEAT HIM TO DEATH. I'M SOOO ROBUST! thing. The problem is that's what it became, and it's not fun for anyone.

I'd rather see something like:
C4 can no longer be placed directly on people (actually, do this regardless)
Taking damage of any kind reduces the duration of the sleep effect.

The problem is, that still leaves things like parapen -> choke/space which is kind of the same thing. I dunno.

There's a lot of fun things you can do with the parapen, like taking people hostage or dragging them into your elaborate SAW-style traps. If you take it out, all those possibilities fly into the wind and we're stuck with "Ok, so I guess I'll just shoot people with my revolver?"
In order for antags to do interesting things (like they should be doing), we need to give them tools to enable interesting scenarios, and the parapen is one of them. It's just a matter of encouraging it to be used in an fun way instead of it just being a GG I CLICK U LOSE thing.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:21 pm #17631

Cheridan wrote:There's a lot of fun things you can do with the parapen, like taking people hostage or dragging them into your elaborate SAW-style traps. If you take it out, all those possibilities fly into the wind and we're stuck with "Ok, so I guess I'll just shoot people with my revolver?"
In order for antags to do interesting things (like they should be doing), we need to give them tools to enable interesting scenarios, and the parapen is one of them. It's just a matter of encouraging it to be used in an fun way instead of it just being a GG I CLICK U LOSE thing.

I so want to do all this too.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:46 pm #17636

There's a lot of fun things you can do with the parapen, but in practice, these almost never happen, which sucks. What DOES happen disproportionally much, however, is traitors going "lol parapenc4" and then bombing the singulo so they can ride the shuttle home to greentext without making the round interesting in any way and often ending the round prematurely for OTHER traitors.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:55 pm #17640

Miauw wrote:There's a lot of fun things you can do with the parapen, but in practice, these almost never happen, which sucks. What DOES happen disproportionally much, however, is traitors going "lol parapenc4" and then bombing the singulo so they can ride the shuttle home to greentext without making the round interesting in any way and often ending the round prematurely for OTHER traitors.

C4 is the problem in the parapen+C4 scenario. It's the finisher, parapen is just the starter. Even if parapens were removed, you can do revolver+C4 (revolvers also being refillable under certain circumstances!), taser/baton+cuff(optional)+C4, N2O+C4 for an area-effect parapen, etc etc ettttttc. C4 is simply too cheap for what it provides, an easy gib after 10 seconds.

Blowing up people should be hard.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:04 pm #17642

You can still space people, which is only marginally harder.
Or if you're the chef you could gib them or w/e
c4 is a problem, parapen is a problem too. removing the finisher won't remove the lead so people will jsut find other ways to get those ggnores, especially since the parapen stuns for fucking ages.

when is the last fucking time you saw somebody kidnap people or saw them setting up traps?
we're removing actually fun things that "don't get used a lot" but when it comes to the parapen, the thing that everybody agrees on is fucking terrible it's "nooo don't touch it it CAN BE USED FOR GOOD"
a community where people parapenc4 to get their greentext is not a community where you want to kidnap somebody because sec will just robust your fucking ass and your hostage will not cooperate and ruin your fucking day.

instead we remove half of the problem and then set up hacky, complicated and hardly maintainable systems to circumvent the other half just to preserve those one in a million chances for "fun"
maybe people would try to kidnap more if parapen wasn't abused so much, because it would give them confidence that people would actually try to play along and make the round fun instead of validhunting.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:10 pm #17643

Or maybe the real problem of people going parac4 for greentext is not para and not c4 but

Spoiler:

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:19 pm #17645

Miauw wrote:You can still space people, which is only marginally harder.
Or if you're the chef you could gib them or w/e
c4 is a problem, parapen is a problem too.

when is the last fucking time you saw somebody kidnap people or saw them setting up traps?
we're removing actually fun things that "don't get used a lot" but when it comes to the parapen, the thing that everybody agrees on is fucking terrible it's "nooo don't touch it it CAN BE USED FOR GOOD"
a community where people parapenc4 to get their greentext is not a community where you want to kidnap somebody because sec will just robust your fucking ass and your hostage will not cooperate and ruin your fucking day.

instead we remove half of the problem and then set up hacky, complicated and hardly maintainable systems to circumvent the other half just to preserve those one in a million chances for "fun"
maybe people would try to kidnap more if parapen wasn't abused so much, because it would give them confidence that people would actually try to play along and make the round fun instead of validhunting.

Spacing someone without getting caught is a lot harder than on-the-spot gibbing. If you can get to an airlock or a gibber unseen, then you get to destroy the body. That's ok (though spacing might be a bit too easy frankly, this could be solved by setting up airlocks as ACTUAL airlocks, the ones that have to cycle. This reduces the speed and ease at which you can chuck someone out).

Making it so that taking damage reduces the amount of sleepiness someone has isn't very hacky and complicated. As far as 'million in one chances for fun' goes, that's what SS13 is all about. Those events are rare, of course, but they have happened.

Kelenius wrote:Or maybe the real problem of people going parac4 for greentext is not para and not c4 but
Spoiler:
greentext

Agreed on some levels, but that's a matter for a different thread.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:20 pm #17659

Ghosts turning chairs gave chances for fun too, but it was abused all the time so it was removed.

I get parapenned all the fucking time and it sucks because it means that I am out of the round forever. Even if damage could wake you up, just drag them into maint, remove their headset and buckle them into a chair. Or buy an esword, which will kill them before they get to yell if they're incapacitated. (Even if they're not incapacitated, sometimes)

Getting parapenned is an instant end to all of your fun in 99.9999999% of the cases, even if you're not blown to bits. It's like people trying to argue against a lowered movespeed by providing dozens of complicated additions to stuns and sec's arsenal: not reaching the root of the problem. This problem may not be the only root, but it's half of both roots.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:53 pm #17684

If you get rid of the parapen, un-nerf chloral. Given the level of powergaming on the server, antags are boned without some way to prevent victims calling for help. As it stands the only way to get something that will function as a parapen is to get shit-tons of zombie powder, which never happens. At least with chloral it takes some actual effort to get.

Incomptinence · Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:15 am

Eh I didn't mind being parapenned. Some red text seeking power gamers should just learn to die with grace.

I am glad the refillable pen is back even if it doesn't come filled with something. However most poisons outside of slime jelly are piss weak and I am not sure unstable mutagen is up to the task post nerf. Might require an overhaul of nasty reagents outside chem to make it a viable way to kill someone, not asking for old chloral retardation just for it to be better than beating someone off with the most common of melee jank.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:09 am #17708

Who the fuck uses parapen to kidnap people or do anything interesting?

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:21 am #17712

Johnathan Rigel, a few days ago. Also me, once, but I botched it.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:34 am #17715

I feel like lowering the effectiveness of the parapen made it MORE likely for people to just slap a c4 on people cheridan, no offense or anything. It was a good idea but I can't be fucked knowing people might stand up while I'm dragging them or something.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:58 am #17723

Fix C4, not Parapen. Improve C4's destruction range, decrease it to 5 seconds, give it a badass stun/deafen for breaching and remove it's ability to attach to people.

Spoiler:

Post by **MisterPerson** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:28 am #17727

I think removing the ability for C4 to gib people and Cheridan's idea of making sleeping people who take damage wake up instantly would remove all complaints about both the parapen and c4.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:37 am #17740

>sleeping people who take damage wake up instantly

why isn't this a thing again

I want to kick people who are sleeping on the job to wake them up so bad.

It has to be balanced so doctors aren't kicking people who come out of cloning though

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:28 am #17770

>instantly

That's going to cause so much fucking issues and fuck up the balance completely.

And, AS I JUST SAID, won't even fix anything.

Drag into maint, remove headset and jumpsuit, bucklecuff to chair, beat to death, hide corpse in random maint locker.
There you go, your round is still completely fucked by the most fundamentally unfun thing in the game.

And "OH BUT IF YOURE NOT GIBBED YOU COULD BE FOUND!!!!" wow that's so incredibly fun there's even a small chance you could be found before the shitler that parapenned you releases the singulo!

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:31 am #17793

A small chance is still much better than no chance.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:36 am #17802

The absolute fact of the matter is that so long as the parapen instantly knocks someone out and leaves them unable to move or communicate in any possible way, then any alterations made to C4 or the Parapen is a waste of time. If someone can't C4 the parapened target they can just cuff them and beat them to deaf after they dragged the unconscious guy to a safe place, or drop a syndi bomb, or use a sword or anything. C4 simply expedites the process and removes the corpse.

The Parapen is simply a unfun antag item, it offers no challenge to the Traitor and is completely boring and sickening for the victim. Its just a crutch for antags who can't use a gun or sword or the EMP kit. It honestly should take a modicum of effort on the antags part to be able to terminate a target instead of clicking them and then being able to fuck them for two hours while they can't talk then toss the corpse out the airlock.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:37 am #17803

@Paprika
But it still doesn't make getting parapenned in any way fun or counterable. Waiting for your corpse to get found is boring, when it's blown to pieces you can go do something else without having to worry about what if you're found.

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:18 am #17883

There still needs to be a traitor item that can reliably incapacitate someone without fear of having them cry for help. Or, at the very least, mute someone long enough to allow the attacker to incapacitate them using other means. Getting to kidnap people and drag them to a torture dungeon is what makes the parapen so fun to use. If people would be a bit more creative with this item there wouldn't be a problem.

Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:28 am

But people aren't creative with it, and really, why would they be? It may be more fun, but people aren't here to have fun, they're here to win. Sadly.

Lovecraft · Post by **Lovecraft** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:34 am #17887

Maybe throw what goes into the bottle in a super unique jet black chemical bottle?
So people can throw it in a syringe, put it in a joke, or whatever. Mae them at least work slightly more towards the goal instead of just instantly ready on purchase.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:21 am

Parapen has never been fun for the victim but it did allow for traitors to tip the balance against well-guarded crewmembers.

My long-standing theory is that for any round to be truly fun it needs to reach a certain level of chaos/danger. Yes parapen+c4'ing the chef doesn't contribute to that, but neither do any of other cheap assassination alternatives. People with good pings can make minibombs do the same amount of work for less telecrystals, with a bonus hullbreach.

Parapens allowed even the most mediocre traitors (and the vast majority are truly mediocre) to tip the mood of the round into something far more interesting if they used it to dunk someone with much access or sec gear. Take away their parapens and traitor becomes ebow: the gamemode and not only are you going to see less variety (voice changer pretty much depends on parapen'ing your first victim) but you're gutting a core traitor item that heavily contributes to the atmosphere of paranoia on SS13.

Without changes elsewhere I only expect to see a lot more repetition among traitors and much more pseudo-extended rounds since the chances of average-joe-syndicate being able to successfully kill and loot the Captain/HoS just plummeted.

Keep in mind this is still a game of stuns. As of now ebow is the ONLY reliable stunning tool that traitors can spawn (revolvers don't stun high armor crew like captain/HoS). Ultimately I'm not against removing parapen if you can spice up the traitor's arsenal, but without other buffs to the traitors I really just see this contributing to what is even a greater problem with SS13.

P.S. How the fuck do you use the EMP flashlight?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:35 am #17955

Minibomb is only a tc more expensive and is actually better than c4 in a lot of situations. No place time, shorter fuse, and it can completely fuck up cloning if you do it in there.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:00 pm #18012

>people still thinking that "DONT STAND NEXT TO PEOPLE HOLDING A PEN" is the epitome of paranoia

and as i explained on github oldman, you are free to make suggestions as to how to beef up traitor.
preferably in a seperate thread though.

Perakp · Post by **Perakp** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:12 pm #18013

Stunprod + emp flashlight is effectively the same as parapen. I don't see the point.

Incomptinence · Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:37 am

It means they can have people without immediate access to batteries be irrelevant when it comes to being assassins that's what.

Luckily unlike early newling the traitor at least has other working options, well at least for now.

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:44 am #18071

Perakp wrote:Stunprod + emp flashlight is effectively the same as parapen. I don't see the point.

First off, the EMP kit is one of the least used items on the list, and for good reason. It simply isn't as useful when seen in the context of the other items available.

Secondly, and arguably more importantly, you can't easily explain the possession of a stunprod. The great thing about parapens is that you can't be labeled a tator if it's on your person when you're caught. (Assuming you didn't put it in your pocket or in your backpack like a chump)

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:33 pm #18125

>you can't easily explain the possession of a stunprod
90% of all assistants I see on the station have a fucking stunprod. It's not like it's illegal to make a stunprod. Just say "self defence".

Incomptinence · Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:18 pm

The storage assistants access by default has like two batteries in it. Unless they are mass looting* batteries from engineering and science or rendering many apcs across the station battery-less you are speaking in... well do I even need to use the word? Now every scientist, engineer or cargo tech having one would be easy as hell.

*not to imply they won't be looting but there are actual weapons to be looted instead of weapon components

Orzorn · Post by **Orzorn** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:19 pm #18146

Plenty of batteries can be found in maint.

Also you can deconstruct the SMES units in electrical above the chapel for a shit ton of high-cap power cells.

Either way, I'm with Oldman on the idea that traitor will become even more similar, mostly because the ebow is probably one of the most used traitor items right now, and for good reason.

I think the ebow should be nerfed by having its darts work the same way as tasers/eguns set to stun, whereby you can't just blindly fire them down a dark hallway, because you have to actually click on some tile and the bolt stops at that tile.

The way the ebow works right now, the dart will keep traveling, to my knowledge, forever until it strikes something. This makes the ebow ridiculously effective at clearing both light and unlit hallways, whereas I can't even hit them with my taser/egun in a dark hallway because I have to actually click on their tile, or one behind them, with it to hit them. This isn't possible usually because they're many many tiles into maint and I need illumination before I can do anything.

That isn't to say I would mind the parapen going. Its an item that is insanely powerful, totally game ending if you're an assassinate target, and has no counter beyond extreme metagaming or getting lucky with having the right chemicals in you when they decide to attack. At least an ebow lets you scream, or an esword makes a very loud, very obvious sound.

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:23 pm #18202

Miauw wrote:>you can't easily explain the possession of a stunprod
90% of all assistants I see on the station have a fucking stunprod. It's not like it's illegal to make a stunprod. Just say "self defence".

That's not the point. The point is people start pointing fingers at you they can't find shit when it comes times for a body search. Possession of a stunprod will totally invalidate everything you say if you're accused and you're caught. Of course, all of this can be avoided if you ditch the murder weapon in the first place, but who really does that?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:46 am #18209

Miauw wrote:>you can't easily explain the possession of a stunprod
90% of all assistants I see on the station have a fucking stunprod. It's not like it's illegal to make a stunprod. Just say "self defence".

What flavor of brig time would you like today?

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:57 am #18214

paprika wrote:
Miauw wrote:>you can't easily explain the possession of a stunprod
90% of all assistants I see on the station have a fucking stunprod. It's not like it's illegal to make a stunprod. Just say "self defence".

What flavor of brig time would you like today?

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:14 am #18232

read the second sentence there cowboy

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:52 am #18238

Possession of a Stun Prod is sufficient enough to warrant confiscation of the Prod and a Two minute Brig sentance.

Self Defence is simply defending yourself against a attacker, Self Defence is not an excuse to posses a Illegal weapon.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:55 pm #18294

Say you got it off the attacker.

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:23 pm #18298

If you have to lie to security about such things you might as well be a traitor.

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:45 pm #18322

I think I've only used a parapen once. In that round I used an upilink implant before getting arrested. I nicked the warden and became him for the rest of the round.

It's one time use which to me is a waste when you've learned to be resourceful (and don't mind the thrill of getting caught). Minibomb and soap all the way. Or just have the guy catch a primed minibomb that works too.

Also, having your stun rod taken and being hit with a 2 minute brig what ever is trivial when you can pump them out fast. Use the 2 minutes as planning time.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:44 am #18366

Can we stop talking about brig times for having a stunprod and get back on topic?

I think removing the parapen outright (no replacement) would be an improvement despite most/all of Oldman Robustin's concerns being true and probably happening. We can handle those issues as they come up. The game of stuns issue isn't something we can easily solve, but the other ones mostly revolve around "There's only 3 weapons" and "There's not enough ways to cause general chaos".

Mat13295 · Post by **Mat13295** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:34 am #18410

Or we could just remove objectives and green/red text...

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:34 am #18411

wh-what?

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:28 am #18440

Mat13295 wrote:Or we could just remove objectives and green/red text...

[murderboner intensifies]

but yeah apparently im going to have to code in a reagent that makes you mute and make the parapen that reagent + sleeptoxin to see how fucking terrible it still is before we remove it entirely.