/tg/Station 13

Byond account and character name: Xeranos - Leland Kuznetsov
Banning admin: DennyB
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Security

Ban reason: Repeatedly abused the gulag for annoyance crimes, and abused his position as the warden. Despite being warned, immediately turned around and arrested people against the HoS's orders. He is a fairly new conenction so it might not be a bad idea for him to take a short break from security positions.

Ban length: 10080 minutes

Time ban was placed (including time zone) 01:30 GMT +1~

Your side of the story:

Decided to play a bit as security as the station had been catastrophically chaotic the entire day. Opted in to detective but instead got Warden twice in a row.

Ban reason 1, "Annoying crimes": Deep into one of the rounds, I patrol outside medical just to see this huge mass of people repeatedly tripping over and falling all over the place. In the midst is a chemist using an e-cigarette filled with space lube in it. As splashing space lube all over the place without reason is a really shitty thing to do, I arrest said chemist just to have him start admitting that he's not the only one with space lube but that he's also given it out to other people. I confiscate his e-cig and as I'm about to put him in the brig for 1-2 minutes, I suddenly start taking oxy damage and rightfully so, someone has bombed up half the armory while all of the doors leading to it has been e-magged. With no other officers around in sight and with the brig rapidly losing air & pressure with the armory completely untended to and having said prisoner need escort out of the bombed brig WITHOUT running into the armory, I decide to send the guy off to the Gulag as I had multiple people yelling for security at medical (again). I add 100-150 points to his prisoner identification card and send him on his way.

Ban reason 2, "Abused his position as warden": This one is just complete horsesh*t. I played the warden for maybe 2-3 rounds and every time, we've had the brig be in complete chaos with either nuke ops, emagged doors, traitors in space suit and more poking hull breaches everywhere. There is the ONE person with 150 points on their gulag that I sent (which is technically against Space Law as it requires someone with 5+ minutes/major crime and up but my reason for this is explained in it), Anyone besides that have had a 5-10+ minute brig time to them with otherwise chaos happening in the brig.

Ban reason 3, "Despite being warned, immediately turned around and arrested people against the HoS's orders": Also completely false. This was the last reason he PM'ed me with, asking me why i "Disobeyed HoS Orders" by brigging someone, which i DID NOT DO, something I told him the moment he messaged me. As I was in the middle of processing this ONE person the HoS talked me about (He broke into atmospherics and stole the fire-axe & was running around with it with HoS defending him doing it) A syndie in a red hardsuit suddenly busts into the brig from an exploded armory, shooting everyone with the e-bow. I drop the guy that the HoS told me to let go/ignore (NOT brigging him and NOT sending him to the gulag) to go deal with this syndie personally as the 3-4 other people all seemed to get owned by him and at the same time, have said people spam-talk shit about me:

http://imgur.com/a/cAJu1

I go back to trying to release/complete properly processing the fire-axe guy taking his weapons and tools away before, they yet again manage to all get owned by the single syndicate guy forcing me to step in and take him down alone a second time.

http://imgur.com/a/F7N8t

As expected by me at this point, they failed to contain him YET AGAIN and this time, he got me with a lucky bow shot and proceeded to spam me with it about 20 times until I hit crit:

http://imgur.com/a/764nT

It's after this that the HoS, guy that got his ass handed to him by a syndie in cuffs over three times desipte getting help (having him also pull said syndicate out of my hands as I was gonna process him PROPERLY which he wasn't doing) starts whining his brains out with adminhelps to DennyB on how i "Disobeyed" his orders, arresting "People" he told me to "Ignore" even though we literally got raided by a syndie whilst talking about it while even having said guy he told me to let go was running around freely in brig during the attack. I point this out to DennyB that there are indeed no one brigged or gulag'ed at the point when he messaged me (AKA, the HoS was talking out of his ass with evidence to boot if he'd just look at the brig/my location)... And proceeds to not listen to a single word I was saying and instead give me a ban off security for the above stated ban reason, essentially just taking the word of an incompetent HoS that was screaming things like "Nigger".

I asked him multiple times to give me examples of how I was abusing my power (as every reference to anything 'bad' i supposedly did was ALWAYS generalized to "Oh i got some ahelps ^^") or to just even point out WHO i arrested against HoS order but he instead decided to completely ignore me, slapping down the ban with no discussion, proof or even explanation given and instead he opts in to just repeating the same senseless "Good idea for u to taek short brek from security dood^^".

Why you think you should be unbanned: The admin is guilty of:

1. Not checking any logs.

2. Not paying attention what was happening on the scene/in the game, be it the hull breaches in the brig or just the overall state of the game.

3. Failing to give any kind of explanation or rationality behind the ban or even having a discussion with common sense/rationality.

4. Writing up downright false ban reasons. I did not "Get warned and immediately turned around arresting people against HoS's orders" in any capacity, within any universe, rationale or dimension. The guy was already arrested (for good reason) when he came in, started talking to me which was when we got attacked by a traitor.

5. Failing to even CHECK people's Gulag sentences before PMing me, accusing me of giving everyone maximum time.

Dont take my word for it fam but i dont think we have an admin called DennyB. you sure you were on tgstation?

Wyzack wrote:Dont take my word for it fam but i dont think we have an admin called DennyB. you sure you were on tgstation?

I was linked to this forum directly by an admin in-game, server it happened on was Sybil.

DennyB is a AC right now.


Also, lubing has been considered executable for a long time I don't see why gulaging would be a big deal.

In that case I am likely mistaken, forum mods pls delete this

My side of the story here: I received a number of adminhelps during a round where Xeranos sent everyone he arrested to the gulag.
The crimes he gulagged for included: Pushing him once, giving someone lube, and one that was described to me as throwing in the kitchen", not sure what that one was.
I explained to Xeranos that maybe he shouldn't just toss everyone in the gulag, though in his defense, the armory was emagged into. I added a note to his account to keep an eye on him for bad warden behaviour. Not even half an hour later I got an ahelp from the HoS, saying that Xeranos was arresting people against his orders. Since Xeranos is playing on what appears to be a newer account, it was decided that maybe he jumped into security positions a bit sooner than he should have.
However, I will admit that the circumstances were a bit tricky to work through and I am somewhat new to Adminning.

Fiz Bump wrote:The crimes he gulagged for included:

Pushing him once

Said person disarmed me about twice and tried to do more. As I probably told you in-game, ASSAULTING A SECURITY OFFICER. It is a MAJOR CRIME and you can with all due right send people to the Gulag for it as Space Law very clearly states here: http://www.ss13.eu/wiki/index.php/Labor_Camp

Fiz Bump wrote:giving someone lube

He gave others space lube (with no good reason) and used it himself. As someone else so kindly pointed out, It's not uncommon for lubers to be executed and I REPEATEDLY and very CLEARLY outlined the scenario to you where armory was busted open with brig losing air & pressure. Anyone with common sense would NOT put criminals in these conditions.

Fiz Bump wrote:and one that was described to me as throwing in the kitchen", not sure what that one was.

But you went ahead and job banned me for it anyways. :)

That person was guilty of: 2 counts of resisting arrest, 2 count of petty theft and 1 count of trespassing. That round also had a moderately f*cked up brig so I did indeed send him to the Gulag. You would know this If you ASKED.

I'm sorry for any misunderstanding. I was trying to sort through a lot of information to resolve this situation.
I would understand if the someone made the decision to overturn this ban.
However, I would recommend to Xeranos that he be a little more relaxed in future admin interactions. You were not very forthcoming with information about the crimes anyone committed or how many points you had assigned them. This left me feeling like you might be trying to hide the details of the situation from me.

That person was guilty of: 2 counts of resisting arrest, 2 count of petty theft and 1 count of trespassing.

For example, this is the first I heard about that particular person's reason for being sent to the gulag. If you had taken the time to calmly explain the entire situation I would likely have left the entire situation as an IC issue.

Denny's relatively new to being an admin, so the questioning/interview skills yet have come into good development. I'm going to be working on that with him on better communications to make it more clear and less vague as it appears here.

However, as far as this ban goes its more cumulative build over several rounds that lead to it than one specific case. Several rounds in a row there have been complaints about your handling of issues. Simply put you are being one the types that are sticklers with Space Law, following it for everything when it is only a suggested guideline; these types of security players who play by the book usually end up becoming the most vilified players as they are uncompromising in their approach and handling of issues in regards to security.

Let me just summarize what I have seen in three rounds consecutively that you were playing security.

One round, you detain someone and permabrig them a regular security officer; even trying to get authorization to execute them when as far as it looks they only were breaking in somewhere. Never really explained anything as to why to arrested them, why you perma brigged them, and you never really gave a good reason to why you wanted authorization to execute to rest of security over the radio. We get an Ahelp about that, so at point this is kinda just mentally noted as it could been some situational thing being security can be hell at times. Due to the round coming to an end, I decide I'll watch to see if there is any more problems next round and let what happened go.

Next round happens, and we get another complaint about you. Not really from the people who were assaulting security or lubing, but more from some guy who got thrown into the kitchen by an assailant who attacked them. They ended up being gulagged 900 points due to being in the kitchen and taking a tray out of the kitchen. This warden never really responded back to really explain their sentences to the person, beyond stating the sentence by space law and then sending them off to the gulag with reasons that they stole things, trespassed, and resisted arrested. At this point, the warden was asked to try to tone this down for the future to be somewhat more reasonable or more simple; less of a dick to others with sentences and gulag. Some crimes the punishment deserves to be harsh yet others like the example I gave doesn't really warrant a 900 point gulag sentence.

Third round, complaints come in again from people due to their playstyle which conflicted with rest of security; as they were it seems to be distracted by trying to brig people rather than paying attention to a situation in the armory and argumentative when the HoS gives an order as they really seem to want to dish out a major crime sentence. It's decided maybe it's better to temporary ban you as you are new to the server and are being an unfun by the books Space Law security player.

As such, this is not my ban. If DennyB wants to lift this ban he can. Yet, I will give you fair warning we will watch for more negative behavior in regards to security positions. I will also remind you that Space Law is suggested IC guidelines and adminstration will look into grossly unfair sentencing by security as well. Trying to use it as an excuse for your actions does not fly when it's unreasonable.

Fiz Bump wrote:You were not very forthcoming with information about the crimes anyone committed or how many points you had assigned them.

Yes i was? Any name or even description/job you gave me, I immediately responded with what amount of points I gave them and the reasons for it.

Fiz Bump wrote:If you had taken the time to calmly explain the entire situation I would likely have left the entire situation as an IC issue.

You clearly didn't tell me any details so I COULD explain as I asked MULTIPLE times for any kind of names or jobs but you would never give me any and instead continued to generalize about everything.

TehPear wrote:One round, you detain someone and permabrig them a regular security officer; even trying to get authorization to execute them when as far as it looks they only were breaking in somewhere. Never really explained anything as to why to arrested them, why you perma brigged them, and you never really gave a good reason to why you wanted authorization to execute to rest of security over the radio. We get an Ahelp about that

I remember the station going into a complete sh*tshow and I'm fairly certain that this person was trying to smash his way into the brig whilst already being wanted and as he had no security records (as usual) so I asked if he was a valid target/criminal for execution. I was NEVER questioned about this, not in-game nor by an admin so I have no idea why you're saying "You never gave a good reason to why you wanted authorization" when I wasn't asked this in the first place. We could have talked about then it if i actually got a PM but I didn't so It's incredibly rudimentary and pointless for you to bring it up now, especially since I don't have logs from that round.

TehPear wrote:Next round happens, and we get another complaint about you. Not really from the people who were assaulting security or lubing, but more from some guy who got thrown into the kitchen by an assailant who attacked them. They ended up being gulagged 900 points due to being in the kitchen and taking a tray out of the kitchen.

I saw this happen. When i walked in, the guy was attacking people in the bar and he got taken down by them accordingly where one of them decided to throw him into the kitchen, over two tables as a method of disengaging. I walk over to the kitchen counter and I see that guy stuffing the kitchen rolling pin into his backpack before casually sprinting over like nothing has happened and proceed to climb out of the kitchen which is when I grabbed him, finding both the rolling pin and a stolen pair of handcuffs in his backpack. In total according to space law, this is:

Assault, Trespassing, Possession of a weapon, Two counts of petty theft and two counts resisting arrest which adds up to 9 minutes in brig, or 900 gulag points. The person also did not take a tray. He took the rolling pin and if he told you otherwise, you've been lied to along with not actually checking the logs.

TehPear wrote:This warden never really responded back to really explain their sentences to the person

I caught the guy in the act, he knew exactly what he did and if he didn't understand the law sentence, he should read said space-law instead of spamming ahelps like a child. If i spent the 2-5 minutes required to explicitly explain every single detail of their crime to every person that was ever caught in the act, there would be no time to do anything else.

TehPear wrote:Third round, complaints come in again from people due to their playstyle which conflicted with rest of security; as they were it seems to be distracted by trying to brig people rather than paying attention to a situation in the armory and argumentative when the HoS gives an order as they really seem to want to dish out a major crime sentence.

Here's the situation as I already explained once in the OP, something you apparently haven't read: The armory and subsequent security locker area has been bombed. Probably multiple times. Standing in these areas are impossible without space-suits and ours have been blown up/stolen. The HoS comes over to the gulag console whilst I'm processing the guy with a fireaxe and tells me he wants me to ignore the crimes of this guy that's counting a total of 7 minutes brig time, including major crimes. We have a short talk before IN THE MIDDLE OF IT, a syndicate attacks us from behind. I STOP processing this guy to go DEAL with this syndicate as the rest of the security staff couldn't.. TWICE:

http://imgur.com/a/cAJu1

http://imgur.com/a/F7N8t

Whilst the HoS and others scream like spoiled children about how "shit" I am whilst they get their asses handed to them by a single, handcuffed guy. So no, there is no "Conflicted with rest of security".

There was no "Distracted by trying to brig people rather than paying attention to a situation" because as I have already GIVEN PROOF OF, I was the ONLY person in the entire security force that manages to DEAL with this situation, not only once but twice. The fact that you're trying to imply else means you have not read the OP or properly checked the logs in any capacity.

TehPear wrote:It's decided maybe it's better to temporary ban you as you aree being an unfun by the books Space Law security player.

Wow. So we're at the point now that instead of questioning my by-the-book actions to the Space Law (officially linked by your server to be a guideline for security players) is to be some sort of detriment? Here's the deal sweetheart. The rules themselves (that go above space-law) state accordingly:

"For arrested players, timed sentences up to a total of 10 minutes, buckle-cuffing, and stripping, are considered IC issues and are not actionable by admins. Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment."

So far, there has not been a single proven case or scenario by you people where there has been an actual illegitimate punishment that has happened by me.

TehPear wrote:Space Law is suggested IC guidelines and adminstration will look into grossly unfair sentencing by security as well. Trying to use it as an excuse for your actions does not fly when it's unreasonable.

There has been no unreasonable judgemental sentences passed down by me yet. You either follow Space-law & the server rules as I have done or you don't. There's nothing in-between this as you're trying to imply so If you have additional guidelines to refer me to besides said Space Law or the server rules, you can do so now or kindly keep quiet.

Xeranos wrote:you can do so now or kindly keep quiet.

Honestly just digging your grave deeper entirely.
Just shush, and accept the timed ban instead of being pissy and be happy its no perma.
Just wait it out

" 9 minutes in brig, or 900 gulag points"

Just want to let you know that unless it's been recently fixed, the "1 minute = 100 points" isn't very fair considering the mineral spawn rate on the gulag side [someone should probably note that in space Law], especially when you're using it repeatedly so people can't simply mine the floors for glass. Just something to be mindful of in the future if you wish to continue playing security.

Xeranos wrote:

TehPear wrote:One round, you detain someone and permabrig them a regular security officer; even trying to get authorization to execute them when as far as it looks they only were breaking in somewhere. Never really explained anything as to why to arrested them, why you perma brigged them, and you never really gave a good reason to why you wanted authorization to execute to rest of security over the radio. We get an Ahelp about that

I remember the station going into a complete sh*tshow and I'm fairly certain that this person was trying to smash his way into the brig whilst already being wanted and as he had no security records (as usual) so I asked if he was a valid target/criminal for execution. I was NEVER questioned about this, not in-game nor by an admin so I have no idea why you're saying "You never gave a good reason to why you wanted authorization" when I wasn't asked this in the first place. We could have talked about then it if i actually got a PM but I didn't so It's incredibly rudimentary and pointless for you to bring it up now, especially since I don't have logs from that round.

TehPear wrote:Next round happens, and we get another complaint about you. Not really from the people who were assaulting security or lubing, but more from some guy who got thrown into the kitchen by an assailant who attacked them. They ended up being gulagged 900 points due to being in the kitchen and taking a tray out of the kitchen.

I saw this happen. When i walked in, the guy was attacking people in the bar and he got taken down by them accordingly where one of them decided to throw him into the kitchen, over two tables as a method of disengaging. I walk over to the kitchen counter and I see that guy stuffing the kitchen rolling pin into his backpack before casually sprinting over like nothing has happened and proceed to climb out of the kitchen which is when I grabbed him, finding both the rolling pin and a stolen pair of handcuffs in his backpack. In total according to space law, this is:

Assault, Trespassing, Possession of a weapon, Two counts of petty theft and two counts resisting arrest which adds up to 9 minutes in brig, or 900 gulag points. The person also did not take a tray. He took the rolling pin and if he told you otherwise, you've been lied to along with not actually checking the logs.

TehPear wrote:This warden never really responded back to really explain their sentences to the person

I caught the guy in the act, he knew exactly what he did and if he didn't understand the law sentence, he should read said space-law instead of spamming ahelps like a child. If i spent the 2-5 minutes required to explicitly explain every single detail of their crime to every person that was ever caught in the act, there would be no time to do anything else.

TehPear wrote:Third round, complaints come in again from people due to their playstyle which conflicted with rest of security; as they were it seems to be distracted by trying to brig people rather than paying attention to a situation in the armory and argumentative when the HoS gives an order as they really seem to want to dish out a major crime sentence.

Here's the situation as I already explained once in the OP, something you apparently haven't read: The armory and subsequent security locker area has been bombed. Probably multiple times. Standing in these areas are impossible without space-suits and ours have been blown up/stolen. The HoS comes over to the gulag console whilst I'm processing the guy with a fireaxe and tells me he wants me to ignore the crimes of this guy that's counting a total of 7 minutes brig time, including major crimes. We have a short talk before IN THE MIDDLE OF IT, a syndicate attacks us from behind. I STOP processing this guy to go DEAL with this syndicate as the rest of the security staff couldn't.. TWICE:

http://imgur.com/a/cAJu1

http://imgur.com/a/F7N8t

Whilst the HoS and others scream like spoiled children about how "shit" I am whilst they get their asses handed to them by a single, handcuffed guy. So no, there is no "Conflicted with rest of security".

There was no "Distracted by trying to brig people rather than paying attention to a situation" because as I have already GIVEN PROOF OF, I was the ONLY person in the entire security force that manages to DEAL with this situation, not only once but twice. The fact that you're trying to imply else means you have not read the OP or properly checked the logs in any capacity.

TehPear wrote:It's decided maybe it's better to temporary ban you as you aree being an unfun by the books Space Law security player.

Wow. So we're at the point now that instead of questioning my by-the-book actions to the Space Law (officially linked by your server to be a guideline for security players) is to be some sort of detriment? Here's the deal sweetheart. The rules themselves (that go above space-law) state accordingly:

"For arrested players, timed sentences up to a total of 10 minutes, buckle-cuffing, and stripping, are considered IC issues and are not actionable by admins. Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment."

So far, there has not been a single proven case or scenario by you people where there has been an actual illegitimate punishment that has happened by me.

TehPear wrote:Space Law is suggested IC guidelines and adminstration will look into grossly unfair sentencing by security as well. Trying to use it as an excuse for your actions does not fly when it's unreasonable.

There has been no unreasonable judgemental sentences passed down by me yet. You either follow Space-law & the server rules as I have done or you don't. There's nothing in-between this as you're trying to imply so If you have additional guidelines to refer me to besides said Space Law or the server rules, you can do so now or kindly keep quiet.

1. I explained that I never PM'd you as I felt it could have been a one off thing. I only stated this as an example of some the first complaints in regards to you playing security. Security complaints can be fairly common and I usually side with security, but the reason I stated this example is to give an idea that this wasn't some one off thing. It was repeating itself.

2. Does it really matter if the object was a rolling pin or tray? That's really rudimentary as both things are objects found in the kitchen. They reported it as a pan to me so it was one or the other. It really doesn't matter what the object was from out of there. You still failed to perform any investigative functions or try to make inquiries. You see someone in the Kitchen, you shot them with a taser when they climbed back over. As I said, they got thrown into the kitchen by someone beating the ever living shit out of them. They instead get arrested while you also allow the person who was attacking them to continue to harass them further.

3. My point is exactly just that. You're wasting time processing someone while the armory is a literal hole to space and that individual was likely the one who had exposed it. At that point; sending someone off to the gulag is less important than trying to hold down what is left of the armory as well as backing up rest of security. It's obvious the Head of Security wanted you likely worry about the bigger threat than an Atmospheric Technician who has a fireaxe; someone who is generally allowed to carry that item without being as suspect as a greyshirt; during that situation.

4. Things on the wiki are outdated as changes occur which outpace the wiki being updated. The gulag use to be in an area mineral rich; but Lavaland soon changed that to be more barren thus a 900 point sentence is almost like 15-30 minutes of gulag time to an average player. Most likely more as they don't know how to mine; how to mine efficiently; and how to work the machines. So, these sentences were way longer than what is suggested by Space Law due to the fact the wiki is outdated. You are new here and basing everything off the wiki.

Although I wasn't really paying attention to this particular line of questioning while it was happening so I can't comment on the other specifics, I don't think people should be penalized for following what's on the wiki.

3. My point is exactly just that. You're wasting time processing someone while the armory is a literal hole to space and that individual was likely the one who had exposed it. At that point; sending someone off to the gulag is less important than trying to hold down what is left of the armory as well as backing up rest of security. It's obvious the Head of Security wanted you likely worry about the bigger threat than an Atmospheric Technician who has a fireaxe; someone who is generally allowed to carry that item without being as suspect as a greyshirt; during that situation.

We now ban people for having the "wrong" priorities in a game as hectic as SS13?

bandit wrote:Although I wasn't really paying attention to this particular line of questioning while it was happening so I can't comment on the other specifics, I don't think people should be penalized for following what's on the wiki.

Good to see that at least one member of the admin staff realize how utterly f*cking retarded it is to punish someone for following the rules and guidelines set by the server. :)

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:" 9 minutes in brig, or 900 gulag points"

Just want to let you know that unless it's been recently fixed, the "1 minute = 100 points" isn't very fair considering the mineral spawn rate on the gulag side [someone should probably note that in space Law]

Sounds like an administrative problem rather than a player following guideline one to me. :)

Appeal denied.