/tg/Station 13

Edit: Since admins are speaking I'm guessing that the round ended
Byond account and character name: Yackemflam - Akarani Yamaguchi
Banning admin: Forcefulcjs
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Server
Ban reason and length:
Time ban was placed (including time zone):
Your side of the story: I made maxcaps for mining and gave it to mining. I announced over comms that I'm giving it to mining and the botanist followed me. When I was talking to the miner and placing the bombs on a desk to trade with him. The botanist ran in and grabbed a bomb. I attacked the botanist because maxcaps are scary. I later spaced him because grabbing maxcap bombs is NOT a civilian thing to do. It's pretty antagy greify thing to do.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I din du nuffin.

Two bomb-related bans in less than two hours
s u g o i

Just so we're clear I told you if:

1) You had crit him to get the bomb back, then bring him to medical, that's perfectly fine. There is no risk of someone using your own bomb once they're in crit, so don't use the whole "OH MY GOD BUT HE COULD HAVE BOMBED US" excuse for killing someone who's already crit.

2) You had killed him to get the bomb back, then brought him to medical. That's not fine, but you would probably just get a warning.

3) You killed AND spaced his body. Congrats, you now reek of being a huge kill-baiter. Dayban 100% deserved.

Oldman Robustin wrote:Just so we're clear I told you if:

1) You had crit him to get the bomb back, then bring him to medical, that's perfectly fine. There is no risk of someone using your own bomb once they're in crit, so don't use the whole "OH MY GOD BUT HE COULD HAVE BOMBED US" excuse for killing someone who's already crit.

2) You had killed him to get the bomb back, then brought him to medical. That's not fine, but you would probably just get a warning.

3) You killed AND spaced his body. Congrats, you now reek of being a huge kill-baiter. Dayban 100% deserved.

I'm looking at this situation like someone is trying to raid armory.

Either
A:They can be massive shitters who shouldn't be doing that in the first place
B:They can be massive shitters with the intent on causing a lot of destruction because antags.

Why should you be obligated to heal someone who tried to steal a bomb?

How is trying to give bombs to literally the only job that has any legitimate use to them killbaiting, but stealing super destructive stuff and then adminhelping when you die not banbaiting?

I really have no clue how the botanist expected grabbing such a dangerous device would end for them, that's like grabbing for an officer's gun in their holster and then crying police brutality when they fuck your shit up.

Kor wrote:Why should you be obligated to heal someone who tried to steal a bomb?

How is trying to give bombs to literally the only job that has any legitimate use to them killbaiting, but stealing super destructive stuff and then adminhelping when you die not banbaiting?

It's borderline about whether you need to drag them to medbay, but it removes any notion that you were kill-baiting too. This is why I suggested he transfer bombs hand-to-hand or in a bag/locker. There's too much ambiguity about the intentions of someone picking up a loose bomb.

You act like it was obvious the bomb was going to mining for legitimate purposes, but 99/100 times I've left a bomb in cargo, it was to bomb cargo, so its not hysterical for someone to pick up the bomb and remove its trigger mechanism until the situation gets clarified. Our policy has always been that scientist bear some responsibility for keeping their bombs secure if they want them outside of science.

But like I said, this action went from "stern talking to" to "ban" because of the spacing. Spacing the corpse removes all doubt that you did it "JUST" to re-secure your bomb.

Shaps wrote:I really have no clue how the botanist expected grabbing such a dangerous device would end for them, that's like grabbing for an officer's gun in their holster and then crying police brutality when they fuck your shit up.

Because its a bomb, not a gun? Again, if I were around cargo and saw someone set a bomb down I would immediately try to defuse it AND THEN try to clarify the situation. The botanist didn't run off with it, he didn't try to steal it, he literally just picked it up to make sure it wasn't about to blow up, and then stood there trying to figure out what was going on. Crit him? Yea. Kill him? Meh. Kill and space him? Ok now you're being an asshole. If you don't want people to freak out about bombs in public, take the 10 seconds of effort necessary to keep them in a bag/locker. If you want to murder people for your own negligence, and it is negligence, don't space the goddamn body like you're a righteous warrior on a holy crusade.

An antagonist stole a bomb.

They died doing it.

The person who stopped them got banned for not cloning them so they could go do it again.

He used the desk literally mapped for passing items to pass items.

I thought we put this "you can't space people you otherwise could have validly killed" meme to rest. Cloning them just gives them a chance to keep griefing you, or kill/space you in escalation.

It's borderline about whether you need to drag them to medbay, but it removes any notion that you were kill-baiting too. This is why I suggested he transfer bombs hand-to-hand or in a bag/locker. There's too much ambiguity about the intentions of someone picking up a loose bomb.

You act like it was obvious the bomb was going to mining for legitimate purposes, but 99/100 times I've left a bomb in cargo, it was to bomb cargo, so its not hysterical for someone to pick up the bomb and remove its trigger mechanism until the situation gets clarified. Our policy has always been that scientist bear some responsibility for keeping their bombs secure if they want them outside of science.

I do give bombs to mining for a legit purpose. I do so probably more often than the rest of the server has combined.

But like I said, this action went from "stern talking to" to "ban" because of the spacing. Spacing the corpse removes all doubt that you did it "JUST" to re-secure your bomb.

There were 4 bombs on the table when the botanist grabbed one.

A single maxcap is devastating enough for the station.

Kor wrote:An antagonist stole a bomb.

Screemonster wrote:also ban sally for looking in her box for her marble instead of anne's bag

Kor wrote:An antagonist stole a bomb.

They died doing it.

The person who stopped them got banned for not cloning them so they could go do it again.

He used the desk literally mapped for passing items to pass items.

I thought we put this "you can't space people you otherwise could have validly killed" meme to rest. Cloning them just gives them a chance to keep griefing you, or kill/space you in escalation.

When did this become a meme? In a game where you're surrounded by people with unknown intentions, you often have to act aggressively to protect yourself. The risk of someone being cloned and coming back is a risk you deserve if you want to use the MAXIMUM FORCE possible to defend your interests.

Every day we get ahelps for "assistant broke into cargo, got murdered" type of stuff. It makes perfect sense that if you're already pushing into a grey-area of escalation, that we shouldn't automatically grant them the right to space the corpse too.

I mean it's common sense that killing someone v. taking them out of the round permanently are two different things. Lumping them together automatically just seems like bad policy that makes it even harder for us to make intelligent decisions regarding proper escalation. I absolutely do not like the idea that every fight should end up with a corpse out of an airlock because you're 100% sure that our policy will never punish you for taking an extra step in griefing another player that is the difference between 5 minutes out of the round v. 60 minutes out of the round.

Oldman Robustin wrote:

Kor wrote:An antagonist stole a bomb.

They died doing it.

The person who stopped them got banned for not cloning them so they could go do it again.

He used the desk literally mapped for passing items to pass items.

I thought we put this "you can't space people you otherwise could have validly killed" meme to rest. Cloning them just gives them a chance to keep griefing you, or kill/space you in escalation.

When did this become a meme? In a game where you're surrounded by people with unknown intentions, you often have to act aggressively to protect yourself. The risk of someone being cloned and coming back is a risk you deserve if you want to use the MAXIMUM FORCE possible to defend your interests.

Every day we get ahelps for "assistant broke into cargo, got murdered" type of stuff. It makes perfect sense that if you're already pushing into a grey-area of escalation, that we shouldn't automatically grant them the right to space the corpse too.

I mean it's common sense that killing someone v. taking them out of the round permanently are two different things. Lumping them together automatically just seems like bad policy that makes it even harder for us to make intelligent decisions regarding proper escalation. I absolutely do not like the idea that every fight should end up with a corpse out of an airlock because you're 100% sure that our policy will never punish you for taking an extra step in griefing another player that is the difference between 5 minutes out of the round v. 60 minutes out of the round.

Oldman, you maxcapped a security officer out of a round because he decided to put you in the gulag.

yackemflam wrote:Oldman, you maxcapped a security officer out of a round because he decided to put you in the gulag.

O H S H I T

Also you maxcapped after losing a fight you started with a greyshirt.

I think the answer here is to hard code TTVs to automatically ban specific people who touch them.

Saegrimr wrote:

yackemflam wrote:Oldman, you maxcapped a security officer out of a round because he decided to put you in the gulag.

O H S H I T

Also you maxcapped after losing a fight you started with a greyshirt.

I think the answer here is to hard code TTVs to automatically ban specific people who touch them.

He pushed first.

yackemflam wrote:

Saegrimr wrote:

yackemflam wrote:Oldman, you maxcapped a security officer out of a round because he decided to put you in the gulag.

O H S H I T

Also you maxcapped after losing a fight you started with a greyshirt.

I think the answer here is to hard code TTVs to automatically ban specific people who touch them.

He pushed first.

That's a stupid reason to blow shit up.

IrishWristWatch0 wrote:

yackemflam wrote:

Saegrimr wrote:

yackemflam wrote:Oldman, you maxcapped a security officer out of a round because he decided to put you in the gulag.

O H S H I T

Also you maxcapped after losing a fight you started with a greyshirt.

I think the answer here is to hard code TTVs to automatically ban specific people who touch them.

He pushed first.

That's a stupid reason to blow shit up.

Ain't stupid when two others join in and make things look like it's revs/gangs/etc.

yackemflam wrote:

IrishWristWatch0 wrote:

yackemflam wrote:

Saegrimr wrote:

yackemflam wrote:Oldman, you maxcapped a security officer out of a round because he decided to put you in the gulag.

O H S H I T

Also you maxcapped after losing a fight you started with a greyshirt.

I think the answer here is to hard code TTVs to automatically ban specific people who touch them.

He pushed first.

That's a stupid reason to blow shit up.

Ain't stupid when two others join in and make things look like it's revs/gangs/etc.

Point is that Oldman is being a Hypocrite on that point.

After a surprising amount of discussion about this ban, I am lifting the ban. The whole killing part was IC issue(you can't just steal a bomb like that), but spacing was a bit too much, could've probably dealt with it better(reviving and cuffing the body and then taking to security or something along those lines).

@Yackem, I have no idea what your other points are about other than involving bombs. I blew up an officer after they tortured me in interrogation and sent me to the gulag because I couldn't give them any more information about a suspicious person that I HAD REPORTED TO SECURITY. The areas of policy concerned with my previous actions and what happened here are non-existent.


Anyway, we've been talking about this in adminbus. The policy of myself and certain other admins is simply this:


You went too far in spacing the guy. You weren't obligated to heal him, or even keep him alive, but disposing of the corpse pushes you from "necessary self-defense" into "unnecessary grief" territory.

Next time if you want them gone for good, call security and hand them the corpse, explain the situation, and leave it to them to decide if someone needs to be permanently removed from the round. Allowing vigilantes to space their victims, especially those that didn't fight back (he was literally standing there trying to talk to you as you beat him to death), would be a terrible direction for our policy.

That's my final statement on this ban. I'll leave it to the rest of the bus to decide if it stands.

lzimann wrote:After a surprising amount of discussion about this ban, I am lifting the ban. The whole killing part was IC issue(you can't just steal a bomb like that), but spacing was a bit too much, could've probably dealt with it better(reviving and cuffing the body and then taking to security or something along those lines).

Right, so kill if it's stupid dangerous, then turn guy into sec.

Also for fucks sake, to avoid all this situation again, if you are giving bombs to someone use a bag so no one freaks out because there's a bomb there.

yackemflam wrote:

lzimann wrote:After a surprising amount of discussion about this ban, I am lifting the ban. The whole killing part was IC issue(you can't just steal a bomb like that), but spacing was a bit too much, could've probably dealt with it better(reviving and cuffing the body and then taking to security or something along those lines).

Right, so kill if it's stupid dangerous, then turn guy into sec.

Pretty much, just hold off on the spacing. Also don't blow a hole in the station to kill them. That's a dick move

lzimann wrote:Also for fucks sake, to avoid all this situation again, if you are giving bombs to someone use a bag so no one freaks out because there's a bomb there.

I announced over comms and the guy followed me in so :/

"Hey guys don't totally come steal my bombs" isn't going to help.

I don't think it's really fair to yack that one admin is saying "its your fault for causing a panic, they couldnt have known why the bombs were out" and another admin is saying "it's your fault for saying it on the radio, you attracted people because of it"

To quote the discussion in adminbus, "The radio is a red herring"

But you're still posting about it

yackemflam wrote:

lzimann wrote:Also for fucks sake, to avoid all this situation again, if you are giving bombs to someone use a bag so no one freaks out because there's a bomb there.

I announced over comms and the guy followed me in so :/

For what its worth, you should have mentioned that in the ahelp. It probably wouldn't have changed my mind that spacing the dude was super douchey and killbaity, but its a material fact that could've influenced our discussion and my ultimate decision on the ban's length.

My belief is that the botanist picked up the bomb in a good faith effort to make sure they weren't about to blow up or something. It was stupid, but he didn't just scoop up a bomb and sprint away, he just took there taking a beating as he tried to talk to you. Here's how I view the situation:

1) Scientist dumping TTV's in cargo without saying anything = Botanist was justified in picking them up and trying to defuse it.

2) Scientist calling out his intention to drop TTV's in cargo for a lawful purpose = Botanist was negligent in rushing toward the bomb to defuse it.

But yea, my decision boiled down to your decision to space the corpse. Lzi seems to agree that spacing the corpse was too much, but should've just been a warning. So yea, if you're going to exact vigilante justice, don't fucking space the body unless they are an obvious threat. If the botanist wanted to blow the bombs or kill you, he wouldn't have just sat there with his finger on the trigger trying to talk to you as you beat him to death. I'll edit the note to reflect that its a warning, but if you pull something like this in the future, banning is a possibility.

[16:30:47]ADMIN: PM: Yackemflam/(Akarani Yamaguchi)->ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin): But you got a guy who followed me into mining after I announced over comms that I was giving it to mining

he did though

Kor wrote:But you're still posting about it

I just said it wasn't going to help, are you okay Kor?

Saegrimr wrote:

Kor wrote:But you're still posting about it

I just said it wasn't going to help, are you okay Kor?

I spent three hours arguing about irrelevant shit that wont matter by this evening so probably not.

Kor wrote:[16:30:47]ADMIN: PM: Yackemflam/(Akarani Yamaguchi)->ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin): But you got a guy who followed me into mining after I announced over comms that I was giving it to mining

he did though

I checked, that came through when I had typed up the ban and got caught in the wall of text. That's my bad but it really needed to be one of the first things I heard, not the last thing when we've already discussed it for several minutes.

Are we in agreement on the spacing stuff though? I really don't want to do this song and dance every time I dole out a ban involving vigilantes spacing people.

Oldman Robustin wrote:

Kor wrote:[16:30:47]ADMIN: PM: Yackemflam/(Akarani Yamaguchi)->ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin): But you got a guy who followed me into mining after I announced over comms that I was giving it to mining

he did though

Are we in agreement on the spacing stuff though? I really don't want to do this song and dance every time I dole out a ban involving vigilantes spacing people.

The spacing was completely valid and any reasons against spacing is purely your opinion which is likely influenced by your playstyle and personality.

You have no right to demand others conform to a standard if the act of spacing someone for stealing a bomb did not break rules and is completely reasonable.

referencing you breathing down my neck for doing my job and disposing of a body; https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 22#p173144

J_Madison wrote:

Oldman Robustin wrote:

Kor wrote:[16:30:47]ADMIN: PM: Yackemflam/(Akarani Yamaguchi)->ForcefulCJS/(Oldman Robustin): But you got a guy who followed me into mining after I announced over comms that I was giving it to mining

he did though

Are we in agreement on the spacing stuff though? I really don't want to do this song and dance every time I dole out a ban involving vigilantes spacing people.

The spacing was completely valid and any reasons against spacing is purely your opinion which is likely influenced by your playstyle and personality.

You have no right to demand others conform to a standard if the act of spacing someone for stealing a bomb did not break rules and is completely reasonable.

referencing you breathing down my neck for doing my job; https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 22#p173144

So far a Host and a Headmin have stated that spacing went too far. You say the botanist "stole" the bomb, I say the botanist "defused" it. It's ambiguous. Personally, I've never seen someone "steal a bomb" and not immediately try to run away or kill me, that's kind of a tell that the botanist wasn't just a run-of-the-mill bomb thief. The whole idea is you shouldn't space people after lynching them if they weren't even acting hostile toward you.

Oldman Robustin wrote:The whole idea is you shouldn't space people after lynching them if they weren't even acting hostile toward you.

The issue here is "shouldn't". Not can't. Different players have different reactions to someone stealing a max cap bomb. Should probably move this to policy discussion if you want this changed, and since the thread is solved.

J_Madison wrote:The issue here is "shouldn't". Not can't.

Holy shit i'm about to go into meme overdrive.

You can totally go and murder anybody you want as an antag.
You also can flood the station with plasma and IC in OOC about it afterwards.

You really shouldn't though, for obvious reasons.

Saegrimr wrote:

J_Madison wrote:The issue here is "shouldn't". Not can't.

Holy shit i'm about to go into meme overdrive.

You can totally go and murder anybody you want as an antag.
You also can flood the station with plasma and IC in OOC about it afterwards.

You really shouldn't though, for obvious reasons.

The issue is someone is getting banned for shouldn't not can't.

You can't technically get banned for your examples.

Kor wrote:

Saegrimr wrote:

Kor wrote:But you're still posting about it

I just said it wasn't going to help, are you okay Kor?

I spent three hours arguing about irrelevant shit that wont matter by this evening so probably not.

If you didn't want to argue about game bans then why the hell did you run for headmin again?

oranges wrote:

Kor wrote:

Saegrimr wrote:

Kor wrote:But you're still posting about it

I just said it wasn't going to help, are you okay Kor?

I spent three hours arguing about irrelevant shit that wont matter by this evening so probably not.

If you didn't want to argue about game bans then why the hell did you run for headmin again?

I'm crazy

Why is this still open someone died for stealing a fucking bomb banning over that is such giant over moderation.

But old man has a point that it was policy for cloning for this shit, it should be officially repealed so people who follow policy instead of common sense don't have an excuse for bad bans.